Dezmoto
Registered User
I would like to point out though, that all of those teams have made key trades in order to either win or be contenders, it's not through clever drafting alone.
Tank or re-tool on the fly?
- Thread starter Tim McCracken
- Start date
I would like to point out though, that all of those teams have made key trades in order to either win or be contenders, it's not through clever drafting alone.
Dezmoto
Registered User
That's true, but just keep in mind that key players Thomas, Chara and Horton (among others) came from outside the organization.
You just can't win through draft alone anymore, Chicago, Boston, Pittsburgh, LA and even Detroit have all proven that. You need to have a balance of strong drafting (not necessarily high picks), smart FA signings and key trades in order to build a champion. Plus the support of a good coaching staff, of course.
As someone else pointed out, the Canucks scouting staff has probably the worst track record in NHL history, I have no idea why all those guys are still around. If I were Benning, I'd start clearing house there as part of the "retool"
y2kcanucks
Le Sex God
Bure All Day
Registered User
Pittsburgh and Chicago proved that you cant build through the draft alone? Umm I'd beg to differ.
Chicago drafted Seabrook, Keith, Kane, Toews, Crawford, Byfuglien, basically there entire core.
Pittsburgh... Do I even need to say it?
Agreed. That was part of my point though. You really need to build through a number of avenues. There's no proven formula although a top 3 pick obviously helps. But Boston got their top 3 pick though a trade.
We need to draft a future number 1 dman and a potential number one center. And you its nearly impossible to trade for either of these pieces. We simply dont have enough new players pushing in to retool on the fly. Id rather tank one year and get one of those pieces. Then be a mediocre team for a couple years.
y2kcanucks
Le Sex God
Bourne Endeavor
Registered User
This is generally my stance as well. Do what Montreal did in 2012. They initially tried to be competitive, realized it was a folly and realized that not only management, but the entire team was in disarray and just left the cards where they lied, fell in the standings and drafted Galchenyuk.
My qualm isn't with us trying to play competitive hockey, but with management trying to force a competitive roster that just simply isn't there. If we had pulled in some bigger free agents or got something substantial in trade perhaps we could make a push. Right now? It just isn't going to happen. So I would prefer to see Shinkaruk, Horvat, Vey and Corrado all get a solid look and likely make the roster. Let them play with the Sedins, Hamhuis and Bieksa, allowing them to be the veteran presence that has been lacking in Edmonton. This is also why I would have preferred we have traded for Reimer. He and Lack could alternate the season, furthering Lack's development.
Instead, we're going to try to force a playoff push that just isn't going to happen anymore. Our supposed 'youth' movement consists of Kassian possibly on the third line, Lack as the backup and outside of Vey, none of the aforementioned prospects likely to even make the roster.
Derp Kassian
Registered User
Much easier to do what Montreal did and have a quick turn around when you have Pacioretty, Price, Subban + solid prospects all under 26 at the time.
RandV
It's a wolf v2.0
I think there's an angle people should consider when looking at LA or Chicago.
General Managers:
Chicago:
Mike Smith: October 2, 2000 - October 24, 2003
Bob Pulford (Interim): October 24, 2003 - January 1, 2004
Bob Pulford: January 1, 2004 - June 21, 2005
Dale Tallon: June 21, 2005 - July 14, 2009
Stan Bowman: July 14, 2009 - Present
LA:
Dave Taylor: 1997 - 06
Dean Lombardi: 2006 – Present
Both teams were in disarray and fell in the position to draft their core high picks because they suffered for years under horrid management. The turnaround came when they brought competent people in to run the team. There was no conscientious decision to 'tank' and then get good.
General Managers:
Chicago:
Mike Smith: October 2, 2000 - October 24, 2003
Bob Pulford (Interim): October 24, 2003 - January 1, 2004
Bob Pulford: January 1, 2004 - June 21, 2005
Dale Tallon: June 21, 2005 - July 14, 2009
Stan Bowman: July 14, 2009 - Present
LA:
Dave Taylor: 1997 - 06
Dean Lombardi: 2006 – Present
Both teams were in disarray and fell in the position to draft their core high picks because they suffered for years under horrid management. The turnaround came when they brought competent people in to run the team. There was no conscientious decision to 'tank' and then get good.
Wilch
Unregistered User
- Mar 29, 2010
- 12,224
- 487
At the end of the day, we can talk about principles all we want and it won't get this team a cup. To me, it's about finding a solution, not some abstract intangible like "principles".
If this team was to tank, successfully draft Lemieux, Crosby and Malkin, ice a perennial contender for 15 years and win 3-4 cups in that time span, would you be complaining about the process of achieving this or would you be sipping a glass of your preferred alcoholic beverage sitting on a deckchair on a cool summer's night in June?
On the point about the owners - I certainly hope they don't move picks and prospects for immediate help. It's what got us into this hole in the first place.
Wilch
Unregistered User
- Mar 29, 2010
- 12,224
- 487
And if we kick their draft position down in 2006 and 2007 by 5 spots, they'd have Peter Mueller and Sam Gagner instead of Toews and Kane.
It wouldn't have mattered who their GM was, they'd have 0 cups right now and still be toiling away in mediocrity.
Yes, Tallon didn't choose to tank, but he was the beneficiary to a first and third overall.
Bourne Endeavor
Registered User
My point was to illustrate they gave up the year once success was unobtainable but still maintained competitive play. We're trying to be a playoff contender when it's just not going to happen.
SillyRabbit
Trix Are For Kids
- Jan 3, 2006
- 8,016
- 7,026
Lol @ people arguing semantics about "this team did this and this team did that."
The draft is the single best way to acquire elite franchise players.
The overwhelming percentage of these franchise players are picked in the top 5.
Therefore, the single best way to acquire franchise players to help the Canucks have success over the next decade is for them to pick in the Top 5.
The next two drafts, 2015 especially, are the best time to do so, as there is an immense amount of talent available.
The Canucks should tank, it's absolutely the best decision.
Luckily for all of you who still want to "chase the dream," ownership is more interested in selling those two playoff tickets for Games 3 and 4 of the 1st round of the playoffs, than building a foundation to help this team win a Stanley Cup in the future. Clearly they don't plan on keeping the Canucks for too long.
When we finish 9-12th, and are watching other teams in the playoffs and other teams picking in the top 5, i'm sure all of you will still be defending our management however, talking about how the guy we picked is such a steal and how we don't need someone like McDavid or Eichel.
The draft is the single best way to acquire elite franchise players.
The overwhelming percentage of these franchise players are picked in the top 5.
Therefore, the single best way to acquire franchise players to help the Canucks have success over the next decade is for them to pick in the Top 5.
The next two drafts, 2015 especially, are the best time to do so, as there is an immense amount of talent available.
The Canucks should tank, it's absolutely the best decision.
Luckily for all of you who still want to "chase the dream," ownership is more interested in selling those two playoff tickets for Games 3 and 4 of the 1st round of the playoffs, than building a foundation to help this team win a Stanley Cup in the future. Clearly they don't plan on keeping the Canucks for too long.
When we finish 9-12th, and are watching other teams in the playoffs and other teams picking in the top 5, i'm sure all of you will still be defending our management however, talking about how the guy we picked is such a steal and how we don't need someone like McDavid or Eichel.
youre missing a step of probability there, which involves "turning that bad team into a good one". thats a hard step, with or without those high picks.
y2kcanucks
Le Sex God
LA doesn't get to the Cup without Doughty. Don't forget they had two other top 5 picks (Hickey, and Schenn).
San Jose and St. Louis haven't won Cups. They shouldn't be the "standard" for what we are trying to accomplish.
Boston has picked in the top 5 a couple times (Kessel, Seguin).
Detroit also hasn't really done much since losing Lidstrom. I wouldn't consider them a threat anymore, and actually I wouldn't be surprised if they start missing the playoffs.
For the record i have not read any of the other comments. I say re-tool and im buying season tickets. I say re-tool because of teams like the avs and ducks. Both have had hit and miss seasons due to Injuries and with help from drafts they have bounced back quickly.
In a way shows how fickle the owners are,one year for exsample you cant sell Stasney off the avs for picks,the avs bounce back and hes the top free agent out there.
In a way shows how fickle the owners are,one year for exsample you cant sell Stasney off the avs for picks,the avs bounce back and hes the top free agent out there.
I think having another 2 picks in the 1st round next year is crucial. Somebody has to get moved at the deadline.
Paul fricking Guastad got a 1st. Im sure we can move somebody for a 1st at the playoff deadline.
Package them both up to move down or use both.
Paul fricking Guastad got a 1st. Im sure we can move somebody for a 1st at the playoff deadline.
Package them both up to move down or use both.
Baby Pettersson
Moderator
I wanted to wait and see what management did before making a decision. Upon further review I realize this team has almost no chance at winning the cup. We desperately need a young upcoming franchise player. We already have the supporting cast in Horvat, Virtanen, ect. I feel we are one elite prospect away from having a young elite core. Thus I have come to the decision that we rebuild and grab a great player in this upcoming draft.
Debate is pretty moot given recent Benning moves.
Never thought Nucks would have a realistic chance of picking top 5 even without Miller and Vrbata, never mind top 3. It takes an effort to be that bad and we weren't close last year despite epic meltdowns and across the board underachieving.
For me tanking is not a pre season game plan but more an opportunistic stand depending on how a season develops. If we're out of the playoffs at the deadline I want Benning to start dumping assets for picks and futures, and yes I'll frequent the tank thread once we're comfortably out if it, but not before.
Never thought Nucks would have a realistic chance of picking top 5 even without Miller and Vrbata, never mind top 3. It takes an effort to be that bad and we weren't close last year despite epic meltdowns and across the board underachieving.
For me tanking is not a pre season game plan but more an opportunistic stand depending on how a season develops. If we're out of the playoffs at the deadline I want Benning to start dumping assets for picks and futures, and yes I'll frequent the tank thread once we're comfortably out if it, but not before.
Agreed.
...and as far as Det, I believe they only made the playoffs because they played in the East. Had they been a West team they would have probably missed.
Pip
Registered User
Just because Nashville once made a huge mistake overpaying for Gaustad doesn't means **** when we are talking about moving our players.
Andy Dufresne
Registered User
- Jun 17, 2009
- 2,632
- 715
Honest question: How many players in this draft worth tanking for?
Everything i've read, and from watching whl, u18 etc, it looks really deep with good future pros, that doesn't mean the entire top 10 is worth tanking for. I've seen it compared to 2003, a draft where teams did nearly as well in the 20's as they did at 5-10.
McDavid/Eichel
Hanifin
Barzal
That's 4. Konecny? He looked great at u18, but I wouldn't tank for him, he's also ranked below Strome and Marner some places.
Kylington? Never seen him but he's ranked below Zacha and Rantanen some places and i've seen them, nice players but I wouldn't throw away an entire season for them.
The other Americans? Never seen White but nothing i've read makes him sound tank worthy. Who else is there? The whl from what i've seen is loaded with intriguing players but all that means is we can get a great player at 10-15.
Maybe I just hate the concept of rooting for my favorite team to lose. Either way there was never any chance that a rookie GM was going to intentionally ice a crap team, in his first year on the job anyway. It is what it is.
Everything i've read, and from watching whl, u18 etc, it looks really deep with good future pros, that doesn't mean the entire top 10 is worth tanking for. I've seen it compared to 2003, a draft where teams did nearly as well in the 20's as they did at 5-10.
McDavid/Eichel
Hanifin
Barzal
That's 4. Konecny? He looked great at u18, but I wouldn't tank for him, he's also ranked below Strome and Marner some places.
Kylington? Never seen him but he's ranked below Zacha and Rantanen some places and i've seen them, nice players but I wouldn't throw away an entire season for them.
The other Americans? Never seen White but nothing i've read makes him sound tank worthy. Who else is there? The whl from what i've seen is loaded with intriguing players but all that means is we can get a great player at 10-15.
Maybe I just hate the concept of rooting for my favorite team to lose. Either way there was never any chance that a rookie GM was going to intentionally ice a crap team, in his first year on the job anyway. It is what it is.
