Movies: Star Wars - Episode IX: The Rise of Skywalker - II

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ArGarBarGar

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To lay the foundation that Anakin was born by the force, yes. To have Qui-Gon be so adamant on breaking the rules to have him trained, yes. Without that, the audience would've had a reaction similar to Rey, Anakin just being immensely powerful just because.
You do not need a number to determine that, though. Anakin flying a podracer is a major tell that he is incredibly powerful, and if they removed the midichlorians entirely they could have demonstrated his immense potential through scenes throughout the movie. Show his capability instead of just tell us so.
 

bleedblue1223

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You do not need a number to determine that, though. Anakin flying a podracer is a major tell that he is incredibly powerful, and if they removed the midichlorians entirely they could have demonstrated his immense potential through scenes throughout the movie. Show his capability instead of just tell us so.
People would complain that he'd be a Gary Stu.
 

Pilky01

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...come on now...no you didn't, duel of the fates in the first ever ultra lightsaber battle and lucas sound pod racing....let's be honest here.

The video games got me hyped but seeing the movie was a massive let down.
 

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I'm probably in the minority on this one...but I don't hate any of the films. Obviously the OT films are the better ones, but I enjoy aspects of each film, even if the PT has more bad than good.

There are some really enjoyable setpieces in I and even II. III is a decent film, it's unfortunate Anakin's turn is done so poorly though.

Something that DID catch me off guard when I was rewatching the trilogy before The Last Jedi was how slowly ANH begins. After the opening scene it takes a while to get anywhere. Same with ROTJ actually.

Now they're still better movies than the prequels (especially I and II), but it's not like they are start to finish, edge of your seat masterpieces.
 

Mr Fahrenheit

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The specific age wasn't what I was getting at, it was the concept of "harvesting" Jedi and training them en masse for a "Jedi army", so to speak, and using the midichlorians as a catalyst for trying to find all the youths with X number of this biological component.


The thing is that you can't just destroy science just like that. It's like the concept of gravity or atoms. You would have to cull trillions of life forms and destroy entire populations and planets and societies in order to wipe some kind of scientific discovery like that off the map. The fact that even those in the Empire completely scoff at Vader demonstrates that the force itself is not really quantifiable, and is based purely on feelings, something that a Sith Lord could snuff out waaaay more easily.

And this doesn't even touch on the fact that the whole concept of the Jedi as a mythological order falls flat when you actually provide a measure to determine the entire foundation of the myth. At that point is is no longer a myth, it is simply science. The Jedis being mythological was what made them as a concept exciting.

The Jedi arent a myth
 

Osprey

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The mystery of the Force helped to make Star Wars feel more classical, like a Greek epic, IMO. In ancient times, people didn't know the exact reasons or formulas for lots of natural phenomena. For example, they couldn't explain gravity; they just knew that things fell when dropped. Things like that were mysteries and just accepted as the way things were... and new things that weren't accepted yet were considered "magic." The fact that the Force was treated the same way helped Star Wars to feel like it really was taking place "a long time ago."

By introducing the explanation of the midichlorians and all of the political scheming, the prequels felt much more Age of Reason and Renaissance like (i.e. 500 years in Earth's past, rather than 3000 years). The classical epic feeling of the franchise was lost. Instead of there being mystery and clear distinction between good and evil, there was explanation and ambiguous allegiance. It's not that those are bad things. I want science and shades of grey in a lot of stories. It's just that I think that Star Wars is better when it's kept simple and classical.
 
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x Tame Impala

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Making Jedi powers a pseudo-genetic thing takes away from the mythical, samurai-inspired code they follow IMO. It was one dumb decision of many by Lucas
 
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bleedblue1223

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Making Jedi powers a pseudo-genetic thing takes away from the mythical, samurai-inspired code they follow IMO. It was one dumb decision of many by Lucas
Genetics were always there from the beginning with Luke and his father, who we later learned was Vader.
 

HanSolo

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The force didn't need to be quantified. The mystical aspect of it treated it like a myth, allowing it to rise and fall into knowledge depending on the circumstances.

The idea that midichlorians could be measured in science then just ignored once the Empire came to be seems incredibly silly. If that is an actual thing how are there no scientific fields across the galaxy surrounding this type of science? Coupled with the "you must be this midichlorian to ride the rollercoaster" theme that the prequels provide, meaning Jedis are harvested at youth (which isn't even framed as a bad thing) makes it seem like a stupid concept for me.
That's another stupid thing about the prequels. When Yoda claims that Luke is too old for Jedi training, it's easy to think okay, maybe as an adult it's too late and his personality/flaws are too developed. I guess you have to be a child.

Then Lucas doubles down into stupidity by making Anakin too old in Phantom Menace when he's not too much older than a toddler. For what amounts to very little narrative benefit we're left with lore that suggests that children above a toddler age are too old for Jedi training and the Jedi are left to discover or be informed of force sensitives at a younger age. And since Jedi aren't allowed to love, presumably they're not allowed to have children. So how do they even find these force sensitives? There doesn't seem the be a Cerebro for force sensitives since Anakin, someone with a ton of midichlorians was found by utter happenstance (or the Will of the Force). You can't rely on parents to report on force sensitivity if their children are too young to demonstrate any superhuman abilities. So what is Lucas trying to suggest? That Republic planets do mandatory blood testing of all newborns? Or that every Jedi found is a toddler or younger found on a Jedi's adventure's spare time?

Midichlorians and the age requirement are two of the stupidest things Lucas contributed to the lore. I'd say the Jedi aren't allowed to love thing too but if Jedi are Sci fi equivalents to monks then at least that makes sense.
 

HanSolo

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Making Jedi powers a pseudo-genetic thing takes away from the mythical, samurai-inspired code they follow IMO. It was one dumb decision of many by Lucas
Not just genetic matters but it's also a hamfisted attempt to establish that not everyone is capable of manipulating the mystic power of the Force. It's a retcon to anyone asking the question "why wouldn't everyone in the Galaxy study the Force and get superpowers?"
 

bleedblue1223

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In Clone Wars it shows the jedi had a "Cerebro" type, Cad Bane stole a holocron that had a list of force-sensitive children that were not let in the jedi order, still with their families.

Qui-Gon said in TPM that the jedi would have discovered Anakin if he wasn't born on Tatooine in the outer rim.
 

bleedblue1223

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With respect to the children and how the jedi handle emotion, I think it's clear whether directly or indirectly from Lucas, this was meant to show the issues with the order, and how they could be manipulated. The Jedi Order was flawed, they were meant to be flawed.
 
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HanSolo

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In Clone Wars it shows the jedi had a "Cerebro" type, Cad Bane stole a holocron that had a list of force-sensitive children that were not let in the jedi order, still with their families.

Qui-Gon said in TPM that the jedi would have discovered Anakin if he wasn't born on Tatooine in the outer rim.
I suppose that's fair, but that still leaves the Jedi harvesting infants who have no right or ability to consent to a life as a monk. And that Qui-Gon quote still doesn't explain how they're typically found. It took Filoni retconning. The age requirement is still idiotic. I can understand not allowing a fully developed adult but requiring one to be an infant is absurd. And there's no good reason for it other than to create fallibility for Anakin. An element completely wiped away by the existence of former jedi Count Dooku.
 

bleedblue1223

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I suppose that's fair, but that still leaves the Jedi harvesting infants who have no right or ability to consent to a life as a monk. And that Qui-Gon quote still doesn't explain how they're typically found. It took Filoni retconning.
Yeah, taking children and not embracing emotion are part of the reason the jedi fell.

I don't think that info was necessary, just a detail that could be explored in tv format.
 

HanSolo

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Yeah, taking children and not embracing emotion are part of the reason the jedi fell.

I don't think that info was necessary, just a detail that could be explored in tv format.
It was necessary for George in trying to develop the tragedy narrative. But the assertion that, "had the Jedi found Anakin sooner, he wouldn't have developed the emotional tendencies that caused him to turn to the Dark Side" is stupid because Count Dooku presumably joined the Jedi traditionally but he still left the jedi order and turned to the Dark side. And beyond that you could have Anakin's downfall be tragic without such a stupid narrative tool.
 

bleedblue1223

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It was necessary for George in trying to develop the tragedy narrative. But the assertion that, "had the Jedi found Anakin sooner, he wouldn't have developed the emotional tendencies that caused him to turn to the Dark Side" is stupid because Count Dooku presumably joined the Jedi traditionally but he still left the jedi order and turned to the Dark side. And beyond that you could have Anakin's downfall be tragic without such a stupid narrative tool.

I don't think anyone is saying that if Anakin was found sooner, that he wouldn't have fell to the dark side. Dooku's fall started when Yoda returned to his home planet with him and he learned of his family. Anakin still could have fallen in love with Padme even if he was discovered at an earlier age, and Palpatine still would have tried to manipulate him, who knows.
 

HanSolo

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I don't think anyone is saying that if Anakin was found sooner, that he wouldn't have fell to the dark side. Dooku's fall started when Yoda returned to his home planet with him and he learned of his family. Anakin still could have fallen in love with Padme even if he was discovered at an earlier age, and Palpatine still would have tried to manipulate him, who knows.
No of course, that's how we as people with logic understand things. But that's the implication. That if a Jedi is raised as a Jedi from an earlier age they will be more pure and less likely to be subject to temptations or other personality flaws that can lead to the Dark Side. Because Anakin was discovered later there was a greater risk to give in to anger and hatred because he developed all his emotions into childhood without rigid Jedi guidance.
 

NyQuil

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The idea of the midichlorians isn’t bad - it’s the fact that both Obi Wan and Yoda neglected to mention it ever in the original trilogy - so it felt oddly bolted on.
 

NyQuil

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You do not need a number to determine that, though. Anakin flying a podracer is a major tell that he is incredibly powerful, and if they removed the midichlorians entirely they could have demonstrated his immense potential through scenes throughout the movie. Show his capability instead of just tell us so.

I agree with this - the line that he's the "only human that can do it" with respect to podracing is pretty significant.

I found the space combat scenario plausible but terribly executed because Anakin didn't have a clue what he was doing and yet somehow was eluding everyone and destroying everything.

That's as Gary Sue as it gets - if it had been Toddler Rey pulling that off, the entire internet would have melted down into pools of liquid metal and wire.

I would have preferred more of a "Luke" situation where he calms himself as most Force users appear to do - as opposed to clumsy narration of what he was doing. That would at least explain how he is able to outfly hordes of robot pilots.

Maybe a better actor could have pulled it off - but like a lot of things in the second trilogy (I-III) - maybe you just blame the writing.
 

x Tame Impala

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Genetics were always there from the beginning with Luke and his father, who we later learned was Vader.

I think there’s a semantic difference between the two. On one hand you have the passing down of a legacy and abilities from a supremely unique man down to his son. On the other you have a distinct/exact explanation of the biological and cellular passing down of precise genetic capabilities through a microscopic organism.

One is more mysterious and mythical. The other is an exact reasoning that IMO takes away from the “legend” of the Jedi. Midochlorians make the Jedi seem more like X-men than mythical people who’ve dedicated their lives to becoming one with the universe.
 
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bleedblue1223

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I think there’s a semantic difference between the two. On one hand you have the passing down of a legacy and abilities from a supremely unique man down to his son. On the other you have a distinct/exact explanation of the biological and cellular passing down of precise genetic capabilities through a microscopic organism.

One is more mysterious and mythical. The other is an exact reasoning that IMO takes away from the “legend” of the Jedi. Midochlorians make the Jedi seem more like X-men than mythical people who’ve dedicated their lives to becoming one with the universe.
Regular jedi don't procreate, so midichlorians will still pop up in a high count at random.
 
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