Movies: Star Wars - Episode IX: The Rise of Skywalker - II

[Blender]

Also unnecessary. All of it was unnecessary. Him being too old to receive Jedi training. The Jesus birth. The prophecy of being the one who brings balance to the Force. Lucas decided to expand on the Anakin/Darth Vader character and went way way way overboard. The fall of Anakin Skywalker and redemption could have been done just fine if he had been found like any other young Jedi, trained by Obi Wan, and seduced to the Dark side by Palpatine without the contrived fallen space Jesus bull****. The entire story of the fall of the Republic/rise of the Empire didn't need that. All it really amounts to is when Vader dunks Palpatine down the shaft in RotJ he goes from a redeemed villain to a prophecy fulfilled. But it doesn't really add to the narrative because of how contrived it is. Not to mention that it already throws a narrative dampener on the sequel trilogy since the existence of a conflict after RotJ means the Force was not brought to balance, and the prophecy the Prequels established was bull**** all along.

Not to mention that they didn't need the convoluted plot to destroy the Jedi either, they could have taken a serious hit during the Clone Wars, which Obi-Wan references vaguely in ANH, and Anakin switched sides to Palpatine and they finished the job on a depleted and weakened Jedi order.

 

[bleedblue1223]

Not to mention that they didn't need the convoluted plot to destroy the Jedi either, they could have taken a serious hit during the Clone Wars, which Obi-Wan references vaguely in ANH, and Anakin switched sides to Palpatine and they finished the job on a depleted and weakened Jedi order.

Destroying the jedi was more about destroying hope in the galaxy. Making the jedi seem like the corrupt ones across the galaxy was a way for everyone to embrace the Empire and Palpatine. Otherwise, more would've sided with the jedi.

 

[HanSolo]

Not to mention that they didn't need the convoluted plot to destroy the Jedi either, they could have taken a serious hit during the Clone Wars, which Obi-Wan references vaguely in ANH, and Anakin switched sides to Palpatine and they finished the job on a depleted and weakened Jedi order.

I was okay with that part of it.

 

[discostu]

I showed the trailer to my oldest kid (6 and a half). He's seen most of the Star Wars movies, and understands the broader plot.

I thought I'd share his reaction too the trailer. The shot of Rey with a red lightsabre completely blew his mind. It was pretty fun to see as he tried to think of scenarios of why. He made me replay it and freeze frame as he first wasn't convinced it was her. He asked if she's a bad guy now, and I said that I don't know, as the movie hasn't come out yet.

The theory that he ultimately landed on is that she's probably doing it to trick people to think she's bad. Needless to say, he's super excited to see it once it hits theatres.

I know this thread is probably debating a ton of others elements, but thought I'd share as it does reiterate just how powerful this franchise is when viewed through a kids lens.

 

[bleedblue1223]

Anyone have any thoughts on Rian's recent comments about being disappointed in Empire when he first saw it and how it eventually grew on him? In context of the question, my interpretation is he is setting up a comparison to Last Jedi and he believes Last Jedi will eventually be viewed like that as the question was about the reaction to Last Jedi.

Maybe it's because I was never able to see Empire when it first came out, so I can't really say how I viewed it then. I'm not sure how we really know how the fans viewed it either, it's always the critics that didn't love Empire as much, but with Last Jedi, those critics loved it, it was the fans that were split.

I'm just going to be fascinated by the response to Rian's SW trilogy when it comes out.

 

[ArGarBarGar]

Comparisons between TLJ and Empire with the reactions when they came out aren't exactly new, so it isn't like he is trying to come up with some new comparison just to defend his work. If you look it up on google you can find numerous quotes at the time which were critical of the second movie.

Also, I don't think his comment needs a "reaction" considering it was a short part of a long interview, and he even indicates he is wary to try and make comparisons to TLJ like the interviewer was trying to do:

Rian Johnson Talks ‘Knives Out’ And The Past And Future Of ‘Star Wars’

(Bold is Johnson)

So I’m just going to make a statement.
Okay.
Apropos of nothing.
Yeah.
Younger people are surprised to learn The Empire Strikes Back wasn’t the consensus “best Star Wars movie” until maybe even the ’90s. It was polarizing for quite some time.
Right.
The trajectory of The Last Jedi reminds me of that.
I’m a little wary to talk about that, because I don’t want to sound like, I don’t know, like I’m defending anything or something.
I don’t think you have to defend anything.
So, I’m a little wary that even I answer one question about it, and not on you, but then a thousand other outlets suddenly pick it up and it’s like, suddenly, it looks like it’s just all talking about Star Wars.
Right. As opposed to everything we just talked about before this.
That’s the thing. But, as a kid, I distinctly remember being disappointed by The Empire Strikes Back.
Was that the first one you saw?
That was my first one.
Me, too. Because you couldn’t just “watch Star Wars” like now. It’s whatever was in the theater at the time.
I think my dad took me when I was really young to see A New Hope. Yeah, no, I remember, especially in the context of Return of the Jedi, which as a kid I adored. And so, yeah, I remember very vividly. But then Empire slowly became my favorite one. Look, man, same about you, we were in our twenties when the Prequels came out.
The weird thing about Empire was I had the toys before I saw it. All the older kids had been telling me how fun the original Star Wars is. Then Empire is released and my parents take me and it’s like, what the hell was that?
Luke gets symbolically castrated by his father.
As a little kid it’s like, I thought this was supposed to be fun?
Yeah. It sticks. That’s why that’s the one that, even though at that time I had that reaction to it, it stuck in me and it resonated with me. I remember the Prequels, that acrimony of the prequels. I think people forget exactly the tenor of the danger. We remember because we were in the thick of it. So, I mean, I don’t know. I think that anything with a passionate following always has a passionate following and Star Wars is that, even more so. You can’t be angry at one side of it when it’s also the reason the positive is so passionate, you know? It’s all part of the same thing and it always was like this basic thing. That’s why I love it.

 

[CTC]

I showed the trailer to my oldest kid (6 and a half). He's seen most of the Star Wars movies, and understands the broader plot.

I thought I'd share his reaction too the trailer. The shot of Rey with a red lightsabre completely blew his mind. It was pretty fun to see as he tried to think of scenarios of why. He made me replay it and freeze frame as he first wasn't convinced it was her. He asked if she's a bad guy now, and I said that I don't know, as the movie hasn't come out yet.

The theory that he ultimately landed on is that she's probably doing it to trick people to think she's bad. Needless to say, he's super excited to see it once it hits theatres.

I know this thread is probably debating a ton of others elements, but thought I'd share as it does reiterate just how powerful this franchise is when viewed through a kids lens.

This is it exactly, each trilogy is about furthering its legacy and profitability, its always been a movie made for tweens and young kids. Each generation hates the next and its because it's not made for you. IMO

 

[bleedblue1223]

This is it exactly, each trilogy is about furthering its legacy and profitability, its always been a movie made for tweens and young kids. Each generation hates the next and its because it's not made for you. IMO

Star Wars is pretty much the only franchise that uses this line of thinking.

 

[Mr Fahrenheit]

Anyone have any thoughts on Rian's recent comments about being disappointed in Empire when he first saw it and how it eventually grew on him? In context of the question, my interpretation is he is setting up a comparison to Last Jedi and he believes Last Jedi will eventually be viewed like that as the question was about the reaction to Last Jedi.

Maybe it's because I was never able to see Empire when it first came out, so I can't really say how I viewed it then. I'm not sure how we really know how the fans viewed it either, it's always the critics that didn't love Empire as much, but with Last Jedi, those critics loved it, it was the fans that were split.

I'm just going to be fascinated by the response to Rian's SW trilogy when it comes out.

After ANH, Empire subverted Rians expectations

 

[bleedblue1223]

Comparisons between TLJ and Empire with the reactions when they came out aren't exactly new, so it isn't like he is trying to come up with some new comparison just to defend his work. If you look it up on google you can find numerous quotes at the time which were critical of the second movie.

Also, I don't think his comment needs a "reaction" considering it was a short part of a long interview, and he even indicates he is wary to try and make comparisons to TLJ like the interviewer was trying to do:

From critics yes, but we don't have the luxury of judging the fanbase immediate reaction like we do for Last Jedi and newer movies.

I feel like Rian is trying to say that if Empire came out today it would have a 44% on Rotten Tomatoes, but over time it would be accepted like it is now.

 

[Osprey]

Anyone have any thoughts on Rian's recent comments about being disappointed in Empire when he first saw it and how it eventually grew on him? In context of the question, my interpretation is he is setting up a comparison to Last Jedi and he believes Last Jedi will eventually be viewed like that as the question was about the reaction to Last Jedi.

Maybe it's because I was never able to see Empire when it first came out, so I can't really say how I viewed it then. I'm not sure how we really know how the fans viewed it either, it's always the critics that didn't love Empire as much, but with Last Jedi, those critics loved it, it was the fans that were split.

Some people were disappointed in The Empire Strikes Back in 1980 because they didn't like that Vader was revealed to be Luke's father and because the film ended in a cliffhanger. Those criticisms mostly evaporated as people got over their disappointment, realized that the saga was so much better for both and got the closure in The Return of the Jedi that they wanted. I don't see The Last Jedi as analogous because the fans' criticisms of it are more numerous and serious than just a disliked reveal and ending (in fact, one of the criticisms of TLJ's ending is that it didn't leave enough threads hanging, the very opposite of ESB).

I think that Johnson is just reaching for a comparison to defend his work and preserve his pride. Attack of the Clones, which was savagely criticized by fans, much like TLJ, is a better comparison, IMO. I imagine that George Lucas compared AotC to ESB, either privately or in public quotes, in order to imply that AotC might eventually be re-assessed in a more positive light, as well. Today, opinions of AotC are hardly better than they were 17 years ago. Most fans considered it the worst film in the franchise in 2002 and most still seem to consider it the worst (or, at least, near the very bottom). I suspect that feelings on TLJ will similarly hold steady, especially if RotS is accepted more favorably, which is hard to imagine not happening.

 

[ArGarBarGar]

I think that Johnson is just reaching for a comparison to defend his work and preserve his pride.

I don't know how you can read the interview and come away with that impression.

 

[NyQuil]

Personally I find it hilarious that there's a legitimate attempt to equate the best film of the entire Star Wars franchise with the worst.

The only thing they have in common is that they were second in their respective trilogies.

 

[Blender]

Personally I find it hilarious that there's a legitimate attempt to equate the best film of the entire Star Wars franchise with the worst.

The only thing they have in common is that they were second in their respective trilogies.

Who is comparing Empire Strikes Back with Attack of the Clones?

 

[bleedblue1223]

I don't know how you can read the interview and come away with that impression.

He's sort of laying the ground work for saying that a lot of the people originally disappointed with Last Jedi will come around and like it because that's what happened with him and Empire.

 

[NyQuil]

Who is comparing Empire Strikes Back with Attack of the Clones?

I preferred AotC to TLJ personally.

 

[ArGarBarGar]

He's sort of laying the ground work for saying that a lot of the people originally disappointed with Last Jedi will come around and like it because that's what happened with him and Empire.

I think you are really reaching on that interpretation.

The interviewer asked a leading question, he backed away from any comparisons to TLJ, then answered the question the best he could. And even if he does think that, so what?

 

[NyQuil]

I think you are really reaching on that interpretation.

The interviewer asked a leading question, he backed away from any comparisons to TLJ, then answered the question the best he could. And even if he does think that, so what?

Yeah, it's the interviewer making the comparison.

Maybe she/he's saying what she/he thinks Rian wants to hear.

 

[bleedblue1223]

Yeah, it's the interviewer making the comparison.

Maybe she/he's saying what she/he thinks Rian wants to hear.

Yeah, maybe this is it. I was just genuinely curious what other people thought. It seems like interviewers just constantly bring up SW with Rian because they know it'll get clicks.

 

[RandV]

Yeah, maybe this is it. I was just genuinely curious what other people thought. It seems like interviewers just constantly bring up SW with Rian because they know it'll get clicks.

It depends on the age bracket. Being an 80's kid and to young to see/appreciate them in the theatre but in elementary school by thr time you can watch all 3 in sequence the playground consensus was #1 RotJ #2 ANH #3 ESB.

For kids ESB was clearly the most boring one. If you want to look at where it started out being considered the best I think of thr characters from the That 70's Show, where I believe Eric Foreman was a big star wars geek?

 

[Do Make Say Think]

I like TLJ but comparing it to ESB on the basis that they both weren't as well received as their predecessor, feels lazy.

ESB is an expertly made movie; I mean the production values are still outstanding in my mind, I am always impressed when I watch that movie, no matter how many times I see it. The movie ends with the bad guys in complete control, it is a downer of an ending when people were not expecting it.

TLJ does have a few very very strong moments (Luke vs Kylo is just so perfect: using the force for knowledge and defense. Never for attack) but it is so busy leading you down the wrong road that fun is in short supply. I really enjoyed it the first two times but once you know the twists and turns, there is nothing left:

"Now I know that this is a waste of time. Great, this is great"

TLJ wants to tell the audience that failing is important and a part of the path. That is a great message and one that doesn't get enough air time in entertainement media. The movie just focuses on the failing too much and doesn't give us any real pay off. ESB ends with the good guys failing but they are still in it the whole time.

Both movies may have had a weak critical reception (TLJ still made gazillions of dollars) but did so for very different reasons.

 

[Osprey]

I don't know how you can read the interview and come away with that impression.

I had that impression before reading the interview, based on remarks that he's made in the past and how he behaves on Twitter, in general. You said, yourself, that the comparison is not new. He just added more fuel to it in that interview.

For kids ESB was clearly the most boring one.

That's a good point and likely a major reason. I'm surprised that I didn't think to mention it, since I felt that way, myself. The big battle was at the beginning, so the film wound down from that instead of up to an end battle, the Yoda scenes were slow, the dream sequence in which Luke's face is behind Vader's mask was confusing, there was yucky love talk and kissing and it ended on a sad note with Luke losing a hand... and Han. As I got older, I learned to appreciate the slower pace and more mature themes and re-assessed the film more positively.

 

[Tawnos]

I wonder if the fact that the movie was rated pretty highly by the critics is indicative that it might be looked at more favorably in the future than it is right now. So much (not all) of the negative reaction to TLJ is based on current internal societal conflict. There are valid criticisms of the movie structurally, some of which I agree with and some of which I don’t. If that’s all that was going on, the whole thing wouldn’t be so hysterical (not in the funny way).

If those fade, maybe the movie moves into a more positive light overall. Different path than ESB, for sure, but conceivable.

 

[kingsfan28]

From critics yes, but we don't have the luxury of judging the fanbase immediate reaction like we do for Last Jedi and newer movies.

I feel like Rian is trying to say that if Empire came out today it would have a 44% on Rotten Tomatoes, but over time it would be accepted like it is now.

RJ would be wrong on the 44 pct. He, as well as a few other directors complain about the cliff hanger ending as well as the good guys losing. You know what...big f-ing deal. As someone who saw it when it first came out, I know i wasn't disappointed at all and couldn't wait for the conclusion. I saw it in on a big 70mm screen and one of the best memories was the when the ION canon took out the destroyer. the entire theater erupted in cheers. it was like one big F-YEAH! Although, I do think ROTJ would've taken a hit on the old tomato meter.

 

[Cloned]

RJ would be wrong on the 44 pct. He, as well as a few other directors complain about the cliff hanger ending as well as the good guys losing. You know what...big f-ing deal. As someone who saw it when it first came out, I know i wasn't disappointed at all and couldn't wait for the conclusion. I saw it in on a big 70mm screen and one of the best memories was the when the ION canon took out the destroyer. the entire theater erupted in cheers. it was like one big F-YEAH! Although, I do think ROTJ would've taken a hit on the old tomato meter.

One of my issues with ROTJ is how misleading the title actually is.

I mean ROTS has its faults but at least it’s ambitious enough to tell a story with an epic scope. ROTJ tries to end a trilogy with a smaller personal focus and most of the victories in that movie feel hollow and temporary.