Movies: Star Wars - Episode IX: The Rise of Skywalker - II

[Cloned]

Not to mention that they didn't need the convoluted plot to destroy the Jedi either, they could have taken a serious hit during the Clone Wars, which Obi-Wan references vaguely in ANH, and Anakin switched sides to Palpatine and they finished the job on a depleted and weakened Jedi order.

The way Anakin's fall is presented is also a massive failure IMO.

Lucas basically wrote the Jedi as idiots, completely oblivious to everything going on. He also made the questionable decision of making Mace Windu the primary catalyst for Anakin's turn. The way things are presented, you can essentially pin Anakin's fall on Windu's completely unhinged thinking at a key moment and on Obi-Wan's inconceivable choice to leave a crippled Anakin. I mean, either finish him off humanely so he doesn't lie there burning to death, or help him and maybe have a chance to turn him back. Both Windu and Obi-Wan's decisions are completely out of Jedi character, only written that way as a series of contrivances.

As a result, Anakin's fall has less to do with being seduced by Palpatine and the dark side and more to do with the stupid things the Jedi did (or didn't do).

 

[Randy Butternubs]

Anakin from The Clone Wars show >>> Anakin from the movies

 

[Pilky01]

This is it exactly, each trilogy is about furthering its legacy and profitability, its always been a movie made for tweens and young kids. Each generation hates the next and its because it's not made for you. IMO

I was a tween when Episode 1 came out and I f***ing hated it.

 

[Mr Fahrenheit]

The way Anakin's fall is presented is also a massive failure IMO.

Lucas basically wrote the Jedi as idiots, completely oblivious to everything going on. He also made the questionable decision of making Mace Windu the primary catalyst for Anakin's turn. The way things are presented, you can essentially pin Anakin's fall on Windu's completely unhinged thinking at a key moment and on Obi-Wan's inconceivable choice to leave a crippled Anakin. I mean, either finish him off humanely so he doesn't lie there burning to death, or help him and maybe have a chance to turn him back. Both Windu and Obi-Wan's decisions are completely out of Jedi character, only written that way as a series of contrivances.

As a result, Anakin's fall has less to do with being seduced by Palpatine and the dark side and more to do with the stupid things the Jedi did (or didn't do).

Executing Anakin doesnt seem very Jedi-like either, suffering or not, and helping him would be disastrous since the Republic had fallen

 

[CTC]

I was a tween when Episode 1 came out and I ****ing hated it.

...come on now...no you didn't, duel of the fates in the first ever ultra lightsaber battle and lucas sound pod racing....let's be honest here.

 

[Shockmaster]

...come on now...no you didn't, duel if the fates in the first ever ultra lightsaber battle and lucas sound pod racing....let's be honest here.

Anyone who was a kid at the time and say they didn't like it is probably lying for those exact reasons. Clunky dialogue or a flawed plot are things kids don't care about.

 

[CTC]

Anyone who was a kid at the time and say they didn't like it is probably lying for those exact reasons. Clunky dialogue or a flawed plot are things kids don't care about.

Exactly, the lines and their delivery were so bad but as a kid/tween there is no way you didn't think that was the coolest thing star wars had ever shown!

 

[Azathoth]

Exactly, the lines and their delivery were so bad but as a kid/tween there is no way you didn't think that was the coolest thing star wars had ever shown!

Meh, I was 14 when TPM came out (so not exactly a tween) and I thought it was awful. I did grow up with the OT on VHS that I watched more times than I can remember so maybe that had something to do with it.

 

[bleedblue1223]

TPM had some cool and great scenes, but a teen at the time could see that it wasn't a great film. I know I preferred the originals, but I was still entertained by the prequels.

 

[Richard]

I still like Episode 1..... it's got some awful dialogue but the world building is still pretty cool. Dropping you into a galaxy of trading guilds, backstabbing politics, and corporate greed was genius.

The problems were;

1) Midclorians or whatever...… worst idea Lucas ever had,

2) Actor playing young Vader wasn't that good, and,

3) Jar-Jar Binks


Episode II was beyond awful. I, and III were decent films with tremendous worldbuilding but just not enough execution to be considered great. Episode II was a clunker and was more poorly written than many video games with a ton of wasted potential.

 

[bleedblue1223]

I still don't understand why people hate midichlorians. What's the problem with quantifying the potential of force-sensitive individuals.

 

[Do Make Say Think]

I still don't understand why people hate midichlorians. What's the problem with quantifying the potential of force-sensitive individuals.

That and they are mentioned twice in the entire movie. It is a lame idea but it wasn't even an actual plot point, just dumb exposition.

 

[bleedblue1223]

I've seen the argument by some that they hate midichlorians because it makes it seem genetic. While true to an extent, the vast majority of jedi did not have children, so the vast majority of jedi came from parents that were not force-sensitive, so either no or low midichlorian count. It's like athletic ability/talent being genetic. There's probably a decent chance a star athlete will have a kid that is good at sports, but rarely do they become stars themselves, and plenty of big sports stars come from parents that didn't play at a high level.

 

[Tawnos]

I still don't understand why people hate midichlorians. What's the problem with quantifying the potential of force-sensitive individuals.

I actually really love the idea of there being a legitimate scientific explanation for something that was once considered simply mystical.

It doesn't take any of the wonder away for me. Sort of like how I find it more awe-inspiring that undirected natural processes are responsible for the universe we live in, rather than something/someone having created it all.

 

[Beau Knows]

I still don't understand why people hate midichlorians. What's the problem with quantifying the potential of force-sensitive individuals.

It's silly, out of place and somewhat contradictory to the previous films.

I don't think we needed a scientific explanation for how the force works, keeping it mysterious works better than explaining it in a world that's more fantastical than scientific, this isn't Star Trek. Yoda already described the force as a field of energy that could be tapped into, it didn't need any microscopic organisms added to it. The original explanation was all that was needed.

The idea of your midichlorian count determining your ability in the force kind of ruins it as a mystical force that any random person could learn to tap into. It's now just something you either have or don't have.

The force being the basis of some kind of religion is strange if the force is actually understood at a scientific level. When it was mysterious is made sense that people thought Darth Vader's fascination with the force was weird. Now we know they are checking children's blood and then making them stand in a room at like 3 years old swinging swords around.

 

[bleedblue1223]

I actually really love the idea of there being a legitimate scientific explanation for something that was once considered simply mystical.

To me the force itself is still that. Just because you have midichlorians doesn't mean you can use the force, still need training and and understanding of it. Midichlorians to me was just a way of seperating the force-sensitives from the non force-sensitives.

 

[Mr Fahrenheit]

I've seen the argument by some that they hate midichlorians because it makes it seem genetic. While true to an extent, the vast majority of jedi did not have children, so the vast majority of jedi came from parents that were not force-sensitive, so either no or low midichlorian count. It's like athletic ability/talent being genetic. There's probably a decent chance a star athlete will have a kid that is good at sports, but rarely do they become stars themselves, and plenty of big sports stars come from parents that didn't play at a high level.

Luke in RotJ: "The force is strong in my family"

People on the internet: "Midichlorians made the force genetic!"

 

[ArGarBarGar]

The force didn't need to be quantified. The mystical aspect of it treated it like a myth, allowing it to rise and fall into knowledge depending on the circumstances.

The idea that midichlorians could be measured in science then just ignored once the Empire came to be seems incredibly silly. If that is an actual thing how are there no scientific fields across the galaxy surrounding this type of science? Coupled with the "you must be this midichlorian to ride the rollercoaster" theme that the prequels provide, meaning Jedis are harvested at youth (which isn't even framed as a bad thing) makes it seem like a stupid concept for me.

 

[bleedblue1223]

Luke in RotJ: "The force is strong in my family"

People on the internet: "Midichlorians made the force genetic!"

That's why I don't understand the hate of midichlorians. We always knew there was something in force-sensitive people that made them able to use the force, and we knew that force-sensitives could vary in degrees of how powerful they were with the force.

 

[Mr Fahrenheit]

That's why I don't understand the hate of midichlorians. We always knew there was something in force-sensitive people that made them able to use the force, and we knew that force-sensitives could vary in degrees of how powerful they were with the force.

And that Midichlorians are not the force and change nothing about what the force is

 

[bleedblue1223]

The force didn't need to be quantified. The mystical aspect of it treated it like a myth, allowing it to rise and fall into knowledge depending on the circumstances.

The idea that midichlorians could be measured in science then just ignored once the Empire came to be seems incredibly silly. If that is an actual thing how are there no scientific fields across the galaxy surrounding this type of science? Coupled with the "you must be this midichlorian to ride the rollercoaster" theme that the prequels provide, meaning Jedis are harvested at youth (which isn't even framed as a bad thing) makes it seem like a stupid concept for me.

They already put in place the youth part in the originals. Luke was too old in Empire according to Yoda, so it was safe to assume jedi were trained as minors. We learn in Clone Wars they are selected as infants or toddlers. Logically, there has to be some way for the jedi to determine who the force sensitives are across the galaxy.

As for the science during the Empire era, it's completely reasonable that Palpatine destroyed it and during the Republic, only the jedi knew of it. Palpatine didn't know how to locate force sensitive children, he had to get bounty hunters to steal it from the jedi and then kidnap them for him.

 

[ArGarBarGar]

They already put in place the youth part in the originals. Luke was too old in Empire according to Yoda, so it was safe to assume jedi were trained as minors. We learn in Clone Wars they are selected as infants or toddlers. Logically, there has to be some way for the jedi to determine who the force sensitives are across the galaxy.

The specific age wasn't what I was getting at, it was the concept of "harvesting" Jedi and training them en masse for a "Jedi army", so to speak, and using the midichlorians as a catalyst for trying to find all the youths with X number of this biological component.

As for the science during the Empire era, it's completely reasonable that Palpatine destroyed it and during the Republic, only the jedi knew of it. Palpatine didn't know how to locate force sensitive children, he had to get bounty hunters to steal it from the jedi and then kidnap them for him.

The thing is that you can't just destroy science just like that. It's like the concept of gravity or atoms. You would have to cull trillions of life forms and destroy entire populations and planets and societies in order to wipe some kind of scientific discovery like that off the map. The fact that even those in the Empire completely scoff at Vader demonstrates that the force itself is not really quantifiable, and is based purely on feelings, something that a Sith Lord could snuff out waaaay more easily.

And this doesn't even touch on the fact that the whole concept of the Jedi as a mythological order falls flat when you actually provide a measure to determine the entire foundation of the myth. At that point is is no longer a myth, it is simply science. The Jedis being mythological was what made them as a concept exciting.

 

[bleedblue1223]

The specific age wasn't what I was getting at, it was the concept of "harvesting" Jedi and training them en masse for a "Jedi army", so to speak, and using the midichlorians as a catalyst for trying to find all the youths with X number of this biological component.


The thing is that you can't just destroy science just like that. It's like the concept of gravity or atoms. You would have to cull trillions of life forms and destroy entire populations and planets and societies in order to wipe some kind of scientific discovery like that off the map. The fact that even those in the Empire completely scoff at Vader demonstrates that the force itself is not really quantifiable, and is based purely on feelings, something that a Sith Lord could snuff out waaaay more easily.

And this doesn't even touch on the fact that the whole concept of the Jedi as a mythological order falls flat when you actually provide a measure to determine the entire foundation of the myth. At that point is is no longer a myth, it is simply science. The Jedis being mythological was what made them as a concept exciting.

Sure, taking children for this warrior religion is kinda creepy. Midichlorians is what allows people to connect and use the force. There has to be something that determines who is capable of using the force.

You're assuming that everyone or a vast majority of people have a significant knowledge of the force. I don't see the jedi, sith, or any other force-sensitive group sharing that knowledge with the public. Because the groups didn't share the knowledge, it's why people in the Empire scoffed at Vader because they believed Vader and Palpatine were the only ones left of something that regular people just couldn't understand.

 

[ArGarBarGar]

Sure, taking children for this warrior religion is kinda creepy. Midichlorians is what allows people to connect and use the force. There has to be something that determines who is capable of using the force.

But does there need to be something? We didn't need it to accept the force as a concept in the original trilogy. We don't need a scientific explanation of how the wizards of LOTR are able to do what they do. That's the point of fantasy.

You're assuming that everyone or a vast majority of people have a significant knowledge of the force. I don't see the jedi, sith, or any other force-sensitive group sharing that knowledge with the public. Because the groups didn't share the knowledge, it's why people in the Empire scoffed at Vader because they believed Vader and Palpatine were the only ones left of something that regular people just couldn't understand.

If it is measurable then it is very likely to be discovered. It is possible that only the Jedi found out about these organisms, but I doubt that something that is visible in a microscope can be missed by trillions of sentient beings, especially when it is directly involved in an all-encompassing force that surrounds all living things.

 

[bleedblue1223]

To lay the foundation that Anakin was born by the force, yes. To have Qui-Gon be so adamant on breaking the rules to have him trained, yes. Without that, the audience would've had a reaction similar to Rey, Anakin just being immensely powerful just because.