Soccer Prospect Discussion Thread V

[Evilo]

Supposedly a talented young player, but Housni is the prize right now in that age category.

 

[Evilo]

But ain't nothing new. BVB and Leipzig can't educate players by themselves so they raid french academies.

 

[Pavel Buchnevich]

But ain't nothing new. BVB and Leipzig can't educate players by themselves so they raid french academies.

It has more to do with Germany than any specific academy. France is producing better players than Germany. Most of the top young players at that age were not at the club from 8 or 9 years old in any of these countries. They were at smaller clubs and brought in later on. PSG and other French teams have more talent to pick from at these lower age groups than teams in Germany. Thats the way it is.

 

[Evilo]

Nope, the talent pool comes from academies.
Saying France is producing better players like this has no meaning.
It comes from better academies.

 

[bluesfan94]

Yeah, I don't think that it's any secret that France is going through a purple patch right now. Whether that's due to teaching (as @Evilo will say, particularly given his role (IIRC)), benefitting from immigration (certainly many upcoming French prospects have African backgrounds - and I want it to be clear that I think this is a good thing and all of those players are French; please do not take this post as me saying something I'm not), or just happenstance, who knows. The answer is probably a combination.

I was actually thinking about this earlier. Which countries do you think are in their ascendancy/a good spell of prospects and which do you think are not?

For good, I think the Netherlands, France, England, United States. For bad, I think Belgium (although this is more a return to normal), Uruguay (sell Belgium) Italy, maybe Spain. And then I'm sure for both, there are some other smaller countries, but I just don't know enough about them. I've also noticed that I've heard less about African/Asian prospects, particularly from countries that may be considered powers (Cote D'Ivoire, Ghana, Japan), but that might just be exposure.

I think Germany, Argentina, Brazil are just about normal.

 

[Duchene2MacKinnon]

Brasil are in a good spell. Belgium are normal. Spain fell off from their level in the early 2010s. Argentina are good/normal.

 

[Gecklund]

Yeah, I don't think that it's any secret that France is going through a purple patch right now. Whether that's due to teaching (as @Evilo will say, particularly given his role (IIRC)), benefitting from immigration (certainly many upcoming French prospects have African backgrounds - and I want it to be clear that I think this is a good thing and all of those players are French; please do not take this post as me saying something I'm not), or just happenstance, who knows. The answer is probably a combination.

I was actually thinking about this earlier. Which countries do you think are in their ascendancy/a good spell of prospects and which do you think are not?

For good, I think the Netherlands, France, England, United States. For bad, I think Belgium (although this is more a return to normal), Uruguay (sell Belgium) Italy, maybe Spain. And then I'm sure for both, there are some other smaller countries, but I just don't know enough about them. I've also noticed that I've heard less about African/Asian prospects, particularly from countries that may be considered powers (Cote D'Ivoire, Ghana, Japan), but that might just be exposure.

I think Germany, Argentina, Brazil are just about normal.

It’s so hard to decide who has a good generation coming up and who doesn’t because the expectations are shifted. For example, if the United States just had Pulisic and a bunch of let’s say max current Michael Bradleys coming up, it’s a good generations, but if you said the same about France, that’s a really bad generations. I don’t know if this makes sense. I do think Italy has some really good prospects coming up in Tonali, Barella, Sensi, etc (top 3 that come to mind but obviously there are others) but for a team with WC aspirations, it’s not great.

 

[Duchene2MacKinnon]

It’s so hard to decide who has a good generation coming up and who doesn’t because the expectations are shifted. For example, if the United States just had Pulisic and a bunch of let’s say max current Michael Bradleys coming up, it’s a good generations, but if you said the same about France, that’s a really bad generations. I don’t know if this makes sense. I do think Italy has some really good prospects coming up in Tonali, Barella, Sensi, etc (top 3 that come to mind but obviously there are others) but for a team with WC aspirations, it’s not great.

I agree with what you're saying. I think you have to judge them on their own history.

Side note, I wouldnt say Italy is in good spell based on their history but they had some dark years the last few years so, this is a step in the right direction. With 2 of the players named they're not prospects. mid 20s and the latter is often injured.

 

[bluesfan94]

It’s so hard to decide who has a good generation coming up and who doesn’t because the expectations are shifted. For example, if the United States just had Pulisic and a bunch of let’s say max current Michael Bradleys coming up, it’s a good generations, but if you said the same about France, that’s a really bad generations. I don’t know if this makes sense. I do think Italy has some really good prospects coming up in Tonali, Barella, Sensi, etc (top 3 that come to mind but obviously there are others) but for a team with WC aspirations, it’s not great.

Yeah, I mean compared to their relative level. America doesn't normally have a generation of u23 players who will be playing at Juventus, Dortmund, Chelsea, Ajax, and Barcelona. So with Italy, there are a couple decent players, but given that they've won a World Cup (recently, even), it seems like they're below their level.

Brasil are in a good spell. Belgium are normal. Spain fell off from their level in the early 2010s. Argentina are good/normal.

Belgium seems like their back to normal but they're not going to be producing a De Bruyne/Hazard type generation. Which, of course, was their golden generation.

 

[Duchene2MacKinnon]

Yeah, I don't think anyone excepts KDB/Hazard types anymore.

The next KDB is in Argentina his name is Palacios.

 

[Pavel Buchnevich]

I think Germany and Argentina would go into the bad category.

 

[bluesfan94]

I think Germany and Argentina would go into the bad category.

you're just asking for a @cgf rant

That said, I do think that Germany is in a bit of a dry spell, although they do have a couple really promising talents.

 

[Duchene2MacKinnon]

I think Germany and Argentina would go into the bad category.

Definitely not... It's underrated if anything.

Cb's
Perez
Senesi
Martinez
Amione
Balerdi
Foyth
Romero
Martinez
Medina

Midfielders
Almendra
Palacios
Lo Celso
M.Palacios
Zaracho
Ascacibar
Dominquez
Vera

Attackers
Almada
Pedro
Zeballos
Lautaro
Luka
Dario
Velasco

Now most won't be world class but there's potential elite players there.

 

[Gecklund]

Definitely not... It's underrated if anything.

Cb's
Perez
Senesi
Martinez
Amione
Balerdi
Foyth
Romero
Martinez
Medina

Midfielders
Almendra
Palacios
Lo Celso
M.Palacios
Zaracho
Ascacibar
Dominquez
Vera

Attackers
Almada
Pedro
Zeballos
Lautaro
Luka
Dario
Velasco

Now most won't be world class but there's potential elite players there.

What players do you see as potentially elite there? Not a dig at Argentina genuinely don’t know a lot of those players. I know you have high hopes for Lautaro, Palacios, and Ascacibar. Anyone else?

 

[Pavel Buchnevich]

What players do you see as potentially elite there? Not a dig at Argentina genuinely don’t know a lot of those players. I know you have high hopes for Lautaro, Palacios, and Ascacibar. Anyone else?

All of this, except my post was meant as criticism.

 

[Duchene2MacKinnon]

What players do you see as potentially elite there? Not a dig at Argentina genuinely don’t know a lot of those players. I know you have high hopes for Lautaro, Palacios, and Ascacibar. Anyone else?

I have lost interest in Ascacibar he can be serviceable but for now he's irrelevant until he gets healthy and a new agent. He won't be the new Masch sadly. Of the players mentioned the players with elite potential are Perez, Lisandro, Amione, Matias Palacios,Vera,Almada, Dario and the youngest Luka. Who knows how they will progress but the talent is undeniable.

All of this, except my post was meant as criticism.

Didn't take it as criticism just wanted to clarify they're definitely trending up not downwards. Especially given the past 15 years they could only muster forwards now they have elite talent elsewhere.

 

[Gecklund]

I have lost interest in Ascacibar he can be serviceable but for now he's irrelevant until he gets healthy and a new agent. He won't be the new Masch sadly. Of the players mentioned the players with elite potential are Perez, Lisandro, Amione, Matias Palacios,Vera,Almada, Dario and the youngest Luka. Who knows how they will progress but the talent is undeniable.



Didn't take it as criticism just wanted to clarify they're definitely trending up not downwards. Especially given the past 15 years they could only muster forwards now they have elite talent elsewhere.

What do you think about Pedro de la Vega?

 

[Pavel Buchnevich]

Didn't take it as criticism just wanted to clarify they're definitely trending up not downwards. Especially given the past 15 years they could only muster forwards now they have elite talent elsewhere.

And I should also clarify I wasn't meaning it as anything against you or anyone whose Argentine. It's my own personal opinion that Argentina is trending downward.

I don't agree that Argentina has elite talent elsewhere. Where are these guys? Among U25 players, Lautaro is great, but then who else? Transfermarkt tells me the next most valuable players are Correa and Lo Celso. Thats not great. We don't know what players like Lisandro Martinez, Almada, Palacios, Zaracho, Perez, Luka, Foyth amount to. I'm not suggesting Argentina's going to start being terrible, but if I was to guess, things are not shaping up as any better than they were under Messi.

And they should've been a lot better under Messi than they've been. They've been a huge underachiever. They had some really good players. It's true that it's a lot of forwards, but there have still been players like Mascherano, Otamendi, Rojo, Tagliafico, Demichelis, Zabaleta, Gago, Veron, Samuel, Heinze, Burdisso. Do the non-forwards project better than those guys? Not in my opinion, but you'd know better. I just don't see a proven great group of attackers, midfielders, or defenders for Argentina's upcoming generations. Prospects are magic tokens. They could develop, and they might not.

 

[Duchene2MacKinnon]

What do you think about Pedro de la Vega?

He's very talented. He along with Almada broke out last year. From all accounts He's been the better of the two mostly because of the opportunity given. He's a fast, trickey winger. Not as talented as Almada but still has loads of talent himself. Whether he ends up Lavezzi or ADM well see but so far so good.

And I should also clarify I wasn't meaning it as anything against you or anyone whose Argentine. It's my own personal opinion that Argentina is trending downward.

I don't see it but to each their own. Like I said they only had forwards. Only Masch was a great to elite non forward. The rest were good to average to trash.

I don't agree that Argentina has elite talent elsewhere. Where are these guys? Among U25 players, Lautaro is great, but then who else? Transfermarkt tells me the next most valuable players are Correa and Lo Celso. Thats not great. We don't know what players like Lisandro Martinez, Almada, Palacios, Zaracho, Perez, Luka, Foyth amount to. I'm not suggesting Argentina's going to start being terrible, but if I was to guess, things are not shaping up as any better than they were under Messi.

Well you definitely should bank on transfermarkt. I don't even consider Lautaro the best Martinez lol. Lisandro is more talented than him and has a higher ceiling. Correa is ass. Lo Celso is good though. The rest are younger still playing in smaller leagues. So less know and their price is not accurate. For instance the price between Correa and GLC is only 9 million. Lisandro is 22 million who comes up with these numbers and why do they matter? Unless your Dest they should be irrelevant. You're right we don't know how good they will become but I will bet the house that Perez is going to end up being better than Otamendi. Lisanrdo better than Rojo. Etc.

And they should've been a lot better under Messi than they've been. They've been a huge underachiever. They had some really good players. It's true that it's a lot of forwards, but there have still been players like Mascherano, Otamendi, Rojo, Tagliafico, Demichelis, Zabaleta, Gago, Veron, Samuel, Heinze, Burdisso. Do the non-forwards project better than those guys? Not in my opinion, but you'd know better. I just don't see a proven great group of attackers, midfielders, or defenders for Argentina's upcoming generations. Prospects are magic tokens. They could develop, and they might not.

Rojo, Burdisso, Gago these guys suck. Ones a walking red card, ones is a clown but also a walking red card and the other is always in a wheel chair. This next crop will be good and it's a better generation that have came out recently. It's hard to judge these guys but of the players I mentioned 6 I am confident in that will be better than all but 2 of list you provided. Tagliafico doesn't make sense here because he has 2/3 tournaments he can play in.

Again you're not wrong because we know how these guys will progress. However, we are judging prospects talent. This is the place to judge soccer prospects. How could one say they're trending down when the haven't had this abundance of youths coming up? Sure not all will make it but this is promising. And the original question was " Which countries do you think are in their ascendancy/a good spell of prospects and which do you think are not?".... so we most definitely are judging prospects where they are now and nothing else. Therefore Argentina are trending up.

 

[Pavel Buchnevich]

I wasn't basing it on transfermarkt, but using that to help my point. I personally see a big difference between the U25 crop between Argentina and a country like Brazil or Netherlands or England, let alone France.

And while we are talking about young players, some guys are more proven than others. Guys like Mbappe, Sancho, Haaland all probably count in this context, but they aren't the same as some kid with 3 first team appearances. For instance, Lautaro counts for Argentina in this discussion. He's a proven top level player. The others? Maybe Lisandro at Ajax, but the others still need to prove themselves. They might do it, but right now looking at it, I'm going to take a country who has guys who've proven themselves over a country that is relying on a bunch of unproven guys.

 

[Duchene2MacKinnon]

I wasn't basing it on transfermarkt, but using that to help my point. I personally see a big difference between the U25 crop between Argentina and a country like Brazil or Netherlands or England, let alone France.

And while we are talking about young players, some guys are more proven than others. Guys like Mbappe, Sancho, Haaland all probably count in this context, but they aren't the same as some kid with 3 first team appearances. For instance, Lautaro counts for Argentina in this discussion. He's a proven top level player. The others? Maybe Lisandro at Ajax, but the others still need to prove themselves. They might do it, but right now looking at it, I'm going to take a country who has guys who've proven themselves over a country that is relying on a bunch of unproven guys.

This doesn't make too much sense tbh. The question wasn't who had the best talent. I'd be the first to tell you how France's crushes Argentina. I say it weekly how I'm jealous of their Cbs/ Their 7th string would probably start for Argentina. ( hyperbole but you get the idea.) Anyone you compare to France will look like shit. It doesn't mean its not trending up. So, we're talking about something else entirely here. It's like if I said back in 2006 everyone's prospect sucks because it doesn't have Messi. We're not comparing prospects or talent the question was who's going up or down.

They all need proving to do but again it's about trending up. Whether you take the other teams crop is also irrelevant. France is a given England too. Argentina however are not far off between the Dutch/brasil probably worse but not far off. Right now.Still irrelevant.

 

[YNWA14]

I was actually thinking about this earlier. Which countries do you think are in their ascendancy/a good spell of prospects and which do you think are not?

For good, I think the Netherlands, France, England, United States. For bad, I think Belgium (although this is more a return to normal), Uruguay (sell Belgium) Italy, maybe Spain. And then I'm sure for both, there are some other smaller countries, but I just don't know enough about them. I've also noticed that I've heard less about African/Asian prospects, particularly from countries that may be considered powers (Cote D'Ivoire, Ghana, Japan), but that might just be exposure.

I think Germany, Argentina, Brazil are just about normal.

I think it's hard to really speak on something like this without being close to the ground or thoroughly following the youth level of each respective country, especially comparatively, but IMO...

I would agree with you about the Netherlands having an upswing, they have a good number of really talented young players coming through right now that are much better than the previous generation (post-Sneijder/Robben). I could list so many players thought of as big talents coming up but we'll see where they all land, personally I'm the highest on Misehouy and Milambo of the very far off youngsters, but guys like Ihattaren, Gravenberch, Hansen, Unuvar, de Ligt, Rensch, Schuurs, etc. etc. look to be building on an incredible generation themselves (I have very high hopes for Ihattaren and Hansen).

Belgium has never had a huge quantity of really high level talents so I think that they're still pretty normal, they've got some really high ceiling guys coming through now that may be ready to step in once de Bruyne is out of his prime, or shortly after (Doku, Lavia, Descotte, Kana come to mind on top of guys like Vranckx, Verschaeren, Vanheusden, etc...

I definitely agree about England...the talent they're churning out right now is pretty crazy. One of my favourite of theirs is Noni Madueke playing at PSV who stepped in with 2 key assists in less than half a game in their season opener, but they have a plethora of talent coming through atm.

Right now I'd say Germany is maybe a bit below what they're generally regarded at but they have some really top end talents coming through in the '03+ age range (on top of young studs like Kai, Werner, etc.). A guy I know very close to youth football in Germany was mentioning that they've started taking a greater interest in individual talent grooming on top of their typical structured team based approach so that should be interesting, you can already see that in an early example who broke out near the end of last season in Wirtz, but there are more coming.

I guess I would throw Canada into the 'on the up' category. I've mentioned my list of favourite prospects from Canada here before, but just the fact that there are actual youth talents coming out of Canada with a real future at all is a big step forward. To have one of the best young players in the world in Alphonso Davies is beyond what anyone would have expected. Everything else is gravy at the moment, but there's big momentum out of Canada right now to push forward and really build on it.

As always though there will be big failures from top talents, and huge success coming out of players that nobody has heard of yet, and at the end of the day it really remains to be seen how they all work together (or what managers end up trying to harness them).

 

[bluesfan94]

I guess I would throw Canada into the 'on the up' category. I've mentioned my list of favourite prospects from Canada here before, but just the fact that there are actual youth talents coming out of Canada with a real future at all is a big step forward. To have one of the best young players in the world in Alphonso Davies is beyond what anyone would have expected. Everything else is gravy at the moment, but there's big momentum out of Canada right now to push forward and really build on it.

This is very fair. I didn’t think to include them because it’s really two big names (albeit I’m sure there are more names at a lower but good for Canada level - and no shade meant there. That’s like me referencing Sargent at Bremen compared to Reyna at Dortmund), but having two big names is definitely a big deal.

 

[Evilo]

Yeah, I don't think that it's any secret that France is going through a purple patch right now. Whether that's due to teaching (as @Evilo will say, particularly given his role (IIRC)), benefitting from immigration (certainly many upcoming French prospects have African backgrounds - and I want it to be clear that I think this is a good thing and all of those players are French; please do not take this post as me saying something I'm not), or just happenstance, who knows. The answer is probably a combination.

I was actually thinking about this earlier. Which countries do you think are in their ascendancy/a good spell of prospects and which do you think are not?

For good, I think the Netherlands, France, England, United States. For bad, I think Belgium (although this is more a return to normal), Uruguay (sell Belgium) Italy, maybe Spain. And then I'm sure for both, there are some other smaller countries, but I just don't know enough about them. I've also noticed that I've heard less about African/Asian prospects, particularly from countries that may be considered powers (Cote D'Ivoire, Ghana, Japan), but that might just be exposure.

I think Germany, Argentina, Brazil are just about normal.

The thing is it's nothing new for France.
Right now it's peaking but France has produced young phenols for decades now.
Ever since they chose to make the academies the center of their attention.
Think about the 98/00 generation (Henry, Anelka, Vieira etc..) then the next who was supremely talented but not there in the head (Nasri, Ben Arfa, Menée and then Benzema) and so on.
Take a look at Lyon who announced 10 years ago that their academy would be their main investment.
Now they're considered among the top in Europe, the youth coaches are world class, and every YEAR they produce a potential world class player. And mostly from the Lyon area!
Right now the depth is crazy but I'd say it's nothing new.
The French academies are the reason why France has likely been the number one football provider since the last 20 years.

 

[Pavel Buchnevich]

The thing is it's nothing new for France.
Right now it's peaking but France has produced young phenols for decades now.
Ever since they chose to make the academies the center of their attention.
Think about the 98/00 generation (Henry, Anelka, Vieira etc..) then the next who was supremely talented but not there in the head (Nasri, Ben Arfa, Menée and then Benzema) and so on.
Take a look at Lyon who announced 10 years ago that their academy would be their main investment.
Now they're considered among the top in Europe, the youth coaches are world class, and every YEAR they produce a potential world class player. And mostly from the Lyon area!
Right now the depth is crazy but I'd say it's nothing new.
The French academies are the reason why France has likely been the number one football provider since the last 20 years.

How much do you think clubs like Lyon and PSG do with developing players? Do you think there was an excellent coach that turned Mbappe into a superstar from average raw talent at age 12 or do you think he already had incredible talent and they helped refine his talent?

Academies don't develop players in the sense of turning players of average talent into world class players. World class players come from the desire of these kids playing a lot and developing their skills at a young age on their free time.

France is the best at this. They have a lot of kids whose way out of poverty is football, they are a big country, a country with a good sporting history, a good footballing history, a population very interested in football, and a very diverse population to pull from. These players don't come from anything substantial that Lyon, PSG, Marseille, Monaco are doing. Those clubs help these top talents at the margins, and help them break through from talented players to good professional footballers. Thats still important, but that is not the main reason why France is the best in the world right now.