Soccer Prospect Discussion Thread V

[Evilo]

You think players develop their skills IN THEIR FREE TIME? Rather than with good educators and academies?

Why is you think that a team like Le Havre develops more class players alone than half of the EPL academies? Because of the free time of those kids?
Why do you think a town like Lyon produces so many homegrown (as literaly one hour away tops from Lyon) class players? Because of free time?
Then why do you think Lyon produces more players than say Marseille? Because football is a religion in Marseille and apparently they have as much free time?
Yet, OM has developped very few top level players.

It's really incredible to think teams just reap the benefit from players building themselves.
It's the academies that turn the players into what they are.

Mbappe comes from a little club (Bondy) which is famous for the quality of its educators.
Martial, Evra and Henry all went through the same educators in the same small club (Les Ulis) before entering their pro academies (and they went to a different academy).
That's not a coincidence.

We didn't have a good football history before the 80s. You can check on it. One single WC semi final, not a single Euro performance nothing. Then the Platini generation came up and the french league made it mandatory for every pro team to have a youth academy. That TOTALLY changed the concept of young footballers. You can look up on the internet, there are plenty of articles on this I'm sure.
France produced the blueprint on how leagues should look at youth competitions and academies.

And in the 90s, as I said, a conscious effort was made towards those academies, building every year towards more professionality and selections of great educators. Nantes was the star academy back then, but quickly many teams understood how the mandatory academies weren't a burden but rather a chance, especially since french teams couldn't compete financially with european teams (because of taxes and DNCG which forbid debts).
Lyon, coming out of their domination, understood that the academy was to be their main way to dominance. They formed good but very few players before the last 10 years. Since then, it's every year.
Here something to chew on using the OL example :
Giuly (1994)
Malbranque (1998)
Govou (1998)
Ben Arfa (2004)
Benzema (2005)
Remy (2006)
Lacazette (2010)
Lopes (2012)
Umtiti (2012)
Martial (2012)
Tolisso (2013)
Fekir (2013)
Aouar (2016)
Gouiri (2017)
Caqueret (2018)
Cherki (2019)

All internationals or for the last 3 bound to be. Majority of them comes from the Lyon area !
I think it's quite easy to see when Lyon made the big effort to focus on their academy, isn't it?
Lyon is 3rd among the top 5 leagues in number of pro players in the top 5 leagues (behind Real and Barca).
It's the 6th year Lyon has the best academy in France according to the league.
Why do you think? Because they have more free time in Lyon than in Paris, Marseille, Lille or Toulouse (the other top 4 cities in France)?
Why is Le Havre, Nantes, Rennes and others among the top academies when they're not among the top 5 citites?

The reason is the academy priority : technique over result. Good educators.
Someone like Ziani at Nantes (youth coach and former player), just a week ago, trashed the pro coach in the newspapers.
How would it stand in most leagues? Guy would be fired on the spot. Not here. The academy coaches are extremely important, especially when they're good.
We lack quality in pro coaches, but we're loaded in youth coaches.

 

[Pavel Buchnevich]

I didn't say the clubs play no part, but the kids become talented on their own, and then the clubs help refine their skills.

If the clubs developed the players in the sense you suggest, USA, China, India, Canada, Japan would be purchasing the best youth coaches, having those coaches go into schools in the big cities, picking out the most naturally athletic kids, and then developing them into great footballers within a few years.

It doesn't work like that. Hypothetically, if I'm the best swimming instructor in the world and you are an adult who can't swim, I'm not going to make you into the best swimmer in the world. Thats not how any of this stuff works. With few exceptions, if a player hasn't become a big talent on their own by around 12-13, they will not become a professional footballer. It's widely known that technical and creative skills don't develop much after around 16-18. The more you play and the more situations you see, the better your tactical awareness will be. If you aren't already putting work into this before you are in your middle teen years, you will lack in this area. Athletically and physically are the areas that often develop later.

And France's immigration policies have played a large part in their success the last few decades. Same thing with England and Netherlands. There's nothing wrong with any of that. These countries expanded their talent pools with a more diverse set of athletes.

 

[Evilo]

Kids don't become talented on their own.
Otherwise you can't explain why Marseille area fails to produce players while Lyon area can.

Obviously, you don't know who Jean Marc Guillou is. He was a greta educator and decided to make a school in Ivory Coast. Well, guess what? It was that generational squad that was amazing a few years back.
So yes, educators make players, not the other way around.

 

[Incubajerks]

I didn't say the clubs play no part, but the kids become talented on their own, and then the clubs help refine their skills.

If the clubs developed the players in the sense you suggest, USA, China, India, Canada, Japan would be purchasing the best youth coaches, having those coaches go into schools in the big cities, picking out the most naturally athletic kids, and then developing them into great footballers within a few years.

It doesn't work like that. Hypothetically, if I'm the best swimming instructor in the world and you are an adult who can't swim, I'm not going to make you into the best swimmer in the world. Thats not how any of this stuff works. With few exceptions, if a player hasn't become a big talent on their own by around 12-13, they will not become a professional footballer. It's widely known that technical and creative skills don't develop much after around 16-18. The more you play and the more situations you see, the better your tactical awareness will be. If you aren't already putting work into this before you are in your middle teen years, you will lack in this area. Athletically and physically are the areas that often develop later.

And France's immigration policies have played a large part in their success the last few decades. Same thing with England and Netherlands. There's nothing wrong with any of that. These countries expanded their talent pools with a more diverse set of athletes.

This is a big truth but they are way better than England and Netherlands, I don't know if this depends on the amount of the basin they have available but other nations should take an example. I also believe that many players are extremely overrated but this only will tell time.

 

[Pavel Buchnevich]

Otherwise you can't explain why Marseille area fails to produce players while Lyon area can.

I don't know why because I'm not all too familiar with the city beyond its football team, but it probably has to do with the culture around the city. Do the kids play other sports? Are residents wealthier in nature? Is the climate less conducive to playing football year round? Is it an area with less immigration? I'm sure there's a good reason and I'm sure it's related to the culture around Marseille.

 

[Pavel Buchnevich]

This is a big truth but they are way better than England and Netherlands, I don't know if this depends on the amount of the basin they have available but other nations should take an example. I also believe that many players are extremely overrated but this only will tell time.

I'm not about to look up immigration data in all these countries, but African immigrants who speak French want to move to France, African immigrants who speak English want to move to England, African immigrants who speak Portuguese want to move to Portugal. I'm sure it's more complicated than that, but I think thats also probably a fair general representation of the situation. Most of the familial backgrounds of black players for France, England, Portugal, and non-African countries with Netherlands, were African immigrants from former colonies of those countries.

 

[Incubajerks]

I'm not about to look up immigration data in all these countries, but African immigrants who speak French want to move to France, African immigrants who speak English want to move to England, African immigrants who speak Portuguese want to move to Portugal. I'm sure it's more complicated than that, but I think thats also probably a fair general representation of the situation. Most of the familial backgrounds of black players for France, England, Portugal, and non-African countries with Netherlands, were African immigrants from former colonies of those countries.

I agree that it has its weight, because it allows you to "fish" from an immense basin, but at some point the academies have to do their job and they are doing it very well in this era.

 

[Ajacied]

This is a big truth but they are way better than England and Netherlands, I don't know if this depends on the amount of the basin they have available but other nations should take an example. I also believe that many players are extremely overrated but this only will tell time.

The Netherlands only have a population of 17M, though. Pound for pound, they might produce the most talent and it’s been totally back again after an awful period.

 

[YNWA14]

The Netherlands only have a population of 17M, though. Pound for pound, they might produce the most talent and it’s been totally back again after an awful period.

And they’ve been doing it for longer. If anyone set a blueprint for Europe it was them. They transformed the way many places approached player development.

 

[Evilo]

I don't know why because I'm not all too familiar with the city beyond its football team, but it probably has to do with the culture around the city. Do the kids play other sports? Are residents wealthier in nature? Is the climate less conducive to playing football year round? Is it an area with less immigration? I'm sure there's a good reason and I'm sure it's related to the culture around Marseille.

Yes kids play sports and football is a religion.
Climate is great.
More immigration than Lyon area easily.

I told you the good reason.

 

[Evilo]

And they’ve been doing it for longer. If anyone set a blueprint for Europe it was them. They transformed the way many places approached player development.

Not really. Ajax started to produce class players in the 80s on a yearly basis. Before that it was much rarer.

 

[ecemleafs]

Players develop natural ball skills playing in the streets and playing with friends when they are kids. Great academies harness that talent and give it direction and teach talent how to apply it. Imo.

 

[bluesfan94]

I think it's a combination between natural talent (whether pure athletic, technical, or mental), education, and the desire of a player to get better.

Early education is better, so the coaches of kids 6-10 are important.

So looking at a country, you should be looking at population, the importance of soccer in the country (all countries lose potential soccer stars to other sports, but some more than others), and youth coaches. Which is why I don't think it's unfair to note how France has benefitted from immigration (and, in a more macro view, its imperial past). Looking here, it would seem that almost all of the players are of foreign descent at some level. Is that a bad thing? Of course not. That's how the world should work. Of course, you can have all the natural talent in the world but if you don't have the coaches to discover, develop, and refine that talent, it doesn't matter.

 

[Ajacied]

Eh, Ajax dominated most of the 70's with 3 straight CL titles (and one quarter final and a semifinal finish) with a squad consisting mostly out of homegrown players. Players who are now regarded as amongst the best at their respective positions (Krol, Suurbier, Rep, Neeskens, Schrijvers, Cruijff). They were the main supplier of those legendary '74 and '78 Oranje WC teams. Before those years the massive talents coming out of the academy were a bit less frequent, I would agree, but football before totaal voetbal was a whole different, underdeveloped game. They still produced all time greats in Michels, Swart and Keizer prior to it.

Not to mention Ajax introduced the world to totaal voetbal together with Feyenoord, who used it on their way to the CL title in '69 themselves. The ideas and philosophies of Michels and Cruijff paved the way for the recent succeses of Barcelona and Spain. They most definitely set the blueprint for football in Europe.

 

[Evilo]

Haha, not really.
The french federation making it mandatory to have an academy for every pro team was a first. And it paid dividends.

 

[koyvoo]

 

[Duchene2MacKinnon]

Miguel bastard

he wants to play for Argentina because he’s Argentinian.

 

[Evilo]

18 and U18 players that have played in L1 this year, by minutes played.

 

[YNWA14]

Layton Stewart and James Balagizi were phenomenal in the u18 opener. Really nice to have the academy churning out talents like this seemingly consistently of late. I know those two are very highly rated internally.

 

[phisherman]

Tyreece John Jules goal for Charlton. Hopefully he will make losing Balogun less painful.

 

[Evilo]

Young PSG defenseman Louakima signed with Roma.

 

[Savant]

LFC 16yo James Balagizi is on the bench for the U21s today. He is still a couple of years away but he is thought to have one of, if not the highest ceilings in the academy.

Some rumors that Layton Stewart 18yo is in the squad for the League Cup game on Thursday. He is thought to be the best striker in the academy. Rhys Williams CB may also be be in the League Cup squad. Probably right behind Koumetio for academy CB. He is another mutant sized 19yo who spent last season on loan in League Two

 

[YNWA14]

Sontje Hansen has re-signed with Ajax. Very happy about this; I very much rate him at the striker position.

 

[Islay1989]

The Netherlands only have a population of 17M, though. Pound for pound, they might produce the most talent and it’s been totally back again after an awful period.

Eh, I don't know about that. Portugal has 10mil, Croatia around 4, Belgium has 11, Uruguay 3.5 etc.

 

[YNWA14]

Eh, I don't know about that. Portugal has 10mil, Croatia around 4, Belgium has 11, Uruguay 3.5 etc.

The Netherlands exports more talent than all of those countries.