Sheldon Keefe Discussion

[Dreakmur]

What would those holes be, and might they be lessened if this team's character became an asset?

Defensive play from the forwards.
PK from the forwards.
All aspects of physical play - forecheck, puck battles, taking hits to make plays.

Maturity and resilience to adversity are things that will come with age, but I see as weaknesses right now.

 

[Dekes For Days]

Yes, I think everyone would agree that we have one of the most talented groups in the league. The most talented group on paper is very rarely the best team on the ice.

The most talented group in the league just won the cup...

 

[Dreakmur]

The most talented group in the league just won the cup...

Yea, they might have been the most talented. If they were, that was one of the rare occasions that I mentioned in the post you quoted.

They were also among the most talented groups the year before and they go bounced early. Did they address that by adding more talent, or by adding guys that brought the elements that I described the leafs lacking?

 

[Dekes For Days]

If they were, that was one of the rare occasions that I mentioned in the post you quoted.

Except it's not rare at all. Talent correlates very well with winning. Way more than whatever aspect you're promoting.

They were also among the most talented groups the year before and they go bounced early. Did they address that by adding more talent, or by adding guys that brought the elements that I described the leafs lacking?

They addressed that by changing very little, keeping their talented core, and increasing the talent level of the bottom of the lineup players that did have those elements (that the Leafs aren't lacking nearly as much as you claim).

 

[OldTimeHockey]

Management picks the players if the team keeps failing that means you picked the wrong players.

Sure. But when they players are being paid $11 million a year, they have to bear some of the responsibility. Dubas will be/should be given the opportunity to move pieces to try and find the chemistry that fits. He did a little of that this year, but nothing that was major.

 

[Dreakmur]

Except it's not rare at all. Talent correlates very well with winning. Way more than whatever aspect you're promoting.

Perhaps the most talented team wins a lot more than I remember, but that was never the point. The point is that teams that don’t have strong non-talent components don’t succeed.

They addressed that by changing very little, keeping their talented core, and increasing the talent level of the bottom of the lineup players that did have those elements (that the Leafs aren't lacking nearly as much as you claim).

They added Goodrow, Coleman, Bogosian, and Schenn. That seems to be a pretty obvious focus.

I have no idea why you want to keep denying this stuff. Even Dubas recognized it and made an attempt to address the problem. He made some positive moves, but I think there are still some holes to fill.

Some of those problems are solved if the Matthews we saw against Columbus is who he is now. More of those problems are solved if Marner and Nylander mature. More still are solved if Dermott shows some consistency. I am hopeful for the Matthews and Dermott parts, not so much on the Marner and Nylander ones.

 

[Dreakmur]

Sure. But when they players are being paid $11 million a year, they have to bear some of the responsibility. Dubas will be/should be given the opportunity to move pieces to try and find the chemistry that fits. He did a little of that this year, but nothing that was major.

I think the addition of Brodie was major. That spot to Reilly’s right has been a serious hole since he emerges as our top defenseman.

 

[Dekes For Days]

The point is that teams that don’t have strong non-talent components don’t succeed.

What people consider "non-talent" is really arbitrary, and people generally have horrible ability to properly evaluate whatever they consider non-talent components and their actual impact. Which is why who has these supposed non-talent components is usually applied in hindsight after the success or lack thereof already happens, to lazily explain away results that are easily explained by other factors.

What is 100% sure is that teams that don't have strong talent components don't succeed. That is by far the most important thing. As long as you have talent, teams of all different types have won.

They added Goodrow, Coleman, Bogosian, and Schenn.

And those players replaced players from the previous year that had similar "non-talent" components. They didn't change in that regard by as much as people think. The focus was mainly to get cheaper, and more talented throughout the depth.

Even Dubas recognized it and made an attempt to address the problem.

Will players with good drive, experience, and leadership help us? Sure. But mainly because those players we targeted for that are also quite talented at actual hockey, and because we didn't overpay for those aspects. That's also not the reason we lost last year, and those supposed deficiencies (and their supposed impacts) were greatly exaggerated.

 

[IPS]

And those players replaced players from the previous year that had similar "non-talent" components. They didn't change in that regard by as much as people think. The focus was mainly to get cheaper, and more talented throughout the depth.

That's not what Tampa fans think. They think those were absolutely crucial adds that gave them the much needed physicality to further adapt their team to the postseason.

 

[Wafflewhipper]

Keefe @ the 1 year mark as Leafs Coach had this to say. Sheldon Keefe reflects on one year behind Toronto Maple Leafs bench - TSN.ca
Lots of interesting takes in this one. He wants the team to be better in all areas. Thats good. Lots of insights in this anyway
https://www.tsn.ca/sheldon-keefe-reflects-on-one-year-behind-toronto-maple-leafs-bench-1.1554424

 

[Dekes For Days]

That's not what Tampa fans think. They think those were absolutely crucial adds that gave them the much needed physicality to further adapt their team to the postseason.

They were crucial adds, because they allowed Tampa to have quality, talented depth for very little cap space last year. The "physicality" was just an overrated part of it that got the headlines; they added a lot more than that.

 

[Wafflewhipper]

They were crucial adds, because they allowed Tampa to have quality, talented depth for very little cap space last year. The "physicality" was just an overrated part of it that got the headlines; they added a lot more than that.

Really man.... they got bounced around by Columbus and went out for the best quality grit and physicality and fit for the team they could find. Seriously you are at it again trying to split hairs. Why? They went for grit, that was their intention. You can’t twist what positives that came after that in to some other underlying intentions. It was to be battle prepared. Physically was the overrated part of it my brown eye.

 

[zeke]

The only reason the leafs lost to CBJ is because they couldnot score, despite getting tons of quality chances. The leafs outplayed them and were solid defensively even after muzzin went out.

The only question worth debating in the wake of that series loss is whether the lack of scoring was due to:

a) our stars choking after creating chances
b) their goalie playing out of his mind
c) bad luck

 

[Wafflewhipper]

The only reason the leafs lost to CBJ is because they couldnot score, despite getting tons of quality chances. The leafs outplayed them and were solid defensively even after muzzin went out.

The only question worth debating in the wake of that series loss is whether the lack of scoring was due to:

a) our stars choking after creating chances
b) their goalie playing out of his mind
c) bad luck

I say combo of all three and add lack of intensity and Goalies playing out of their minds.

 

[ToneDog]

Really man.... they got bounced around by Columbus and went out for the best quality grit and physicality and fit for the team they could find. Seriously you are at it again trying to split hairs. Why? They went for grit, that was their intention. You can’t twist what positives that came after that in to some other underlying intentions. It was to be battle prepared. Physically was the overrated part of it my brown eye.

Although puck drop is two weeks away, some spin doctors are in mid-season form. God help us when they hit their next gear.

 

[Dreakmur]

What people consider "non-talent" is really arbitrary, and people generally have horrible ability to properly evaluate whatever they consider non-talent components and their actual impact. Which is why who has these supposed non-talent components is usually applied in hindsight after the success or lack thereof already happens, to lazily explain away results that are easily explained by other factors.

Just because you can't identify intangibles doesn't mean nobody else can. Unless you're using a much broader definition of the word "talent", I'm not sure how you can actually believe some of this stuff.

What is 100% sure is that teams that don't have strong talent components don't succeed. That is by far the most important thing. As long as you have talent, teams of all different types have won.

LA won two cups as one of the least offensively talented teams in the league. They weren't even just below average, they were bottom 5.

Will players with good drive, experience, and leadership help us? Sure. But mainly because those players we targeted for that are also quite talented at actual hockey, and because we didn't overpay for those aspects. That's also not the reason we lost last year, and those supposed deficiencies (and their supposed impacts) were greatly exaggerated.

We downgraded out talent. If you really believe talent was everything, you'd think we got worse.

 

[zeke]

We downgraded out talent. If you really believe talent was everything, you'd think we got worse.

Improved our mobility on the backend significantly with brodie/bogo over barrie/ceci. And now we can throw in Lehtonen and a hopefully improved Sandin in the mix there too.

And hard to argue that thornton/vesey/Simmonds are "less talented" than kappy/Johnsson/Clifford. And then we can throw new talent like Robertson/Anderson/Barabanov in the mix there too.

 

[ToneDog]

Improved our mobility on the backend significantly with brodie/bogo over barrie/ceci. And now we can throw in Lehtonen and a hopefully improved Sandin in the mix there too.

And hard to argue that thornton/vesey/Simmonds are "less talented" than kappy/Johnsson/Clifford. And then we can throw new talent like Robertson/Anderson/Barabanov in the mix there too.

The cost to improving the D was a weaker bottom 6. I take Kappy/AJ/Cliffy over 2021 Joe/Vesey/Simmonds hands down. Robertson/Anderson/Barabanov look promising but I doubt any make a dent this year. Love Sandin and hoping Lily can find the next level. Lehtonen might be something but I want to see if his game translates to the NHL.

 

[LEAFANFORLIFE23]

Really man.... they got bounced around by Columbus and went out for the best quality grit and physicality and fit for the team they could find. Seriously you are at it again trying to split hairs. Why? They went for grit, that was their intention. You can’t twist what positives that came after that in to some other underlying intentions. It was to be battle prepared. Physically was the overrated part of it my brown eye.

I wouldn't say they got "bounced around." that implies they got dominated and I don't think that's fair to say

 

[zeke]

The cost to improving the D was a weaker bottom 6. I take Kappy/AJ/Cliffy over 2021 Joe/Vesey/Simmonds hands down.

Don't think there's any talent drop off there, though speed has been sacrificed for more size there.

Robertson/Anderson/Barabanov look promising but I doubt any make a dent this year.

All three should be in the mix, and if they don't make a dent that probably means the vets above them are playing well.

 

[hamzarocks]

I wouldn't say they got "bounced around." that implies they got dominated and I don't think that's fair to say

The post was referring to 2019 series vs the bolts. CBJ did dominate them atleast on the scoreboard that series

 

[Dreakmur]

Improved our mobility on the backend significantly with brodie/bogo over barrie/ceci. And now we can throw in Lehtonen and a hopefully improved Sandin in the mix there too.

Tyson Barrie is way more talented than anything we've added. TJ Brodie is a better hockey player, for sure, but there's no way to spin that as adding talent.

And hard to argue that thornton/vesey/Simmonds are "less talented" than kappy/Johnsson/Clifford.

Vesey is about equal to Kappy/Johnsson in the talent department. I'm not sure he's as good a hockey player as they are.

Neither Simmonds nor Thornton are particularly talented. Simmonds made his whole career out of hard work and toughness. Joe Thornton was never one of the elite talents, even at his best. He dominated with size (not talent), vision (not talent), creativity (not talent), and puck protection (not talent)... and now he's way past his prime.

And then we can throw new talent like Robertson/Anderson/Barabanov in the mix there too.

How many forwards are we dressing?

Matthews, Tavares, Marner, Nylander, Hyman, Mikheyev, Kerfoot, Simmonds, and Spezza are all locks for me. That leaves Thornton, Vesey, and Engvall competing with those guys for roster slots.

 

[Wafflewhipper]

Although puck drop is two weeks away, some spin doctors are in mid-season form. God help us when they hit their next gear.

Haha yeah. To me it seems like the preamble before the real idea kicks in to gear that we don’t need the grit. That it was overrated for us. We needed character and grit and leadership injected more than Tampa i think.
I like this roster. The healthier we stay the better but the depth is much better even if we lose a bunch of man games To injury . I like our depth. I don’t expect Thornton to score a pile but i hope he does. He brings it light and the core needs to have fun and stay loose before games. Seriousness is for games, not tension serious. Serious will to play consistently and crush teams when they have them down.
Simmonds will take issue if dirt starts but i think his presence in the lineup at the paint will be the impressive thing he mixes in. Good guy too like all the signings.
We needed the grit and Bogosian is a very nice add. I can see him around for a couple more years. Bogo doesn’t get talked about as much but he might be a fan fav in no time.

 

[Wafflewhipper]

I wouldn't say they got "bounced around." that implies they got dominated and I don't think that's fair to say

Here is a evaluation of what happened to a juggernaut against defense and grit. https://www.cbssports.com/nhl/news/2019-nhl-playoffs-five-reasons-the-tampa-bay-lightning-were-swept-by-the-columbus-blue-jackets/
They really did get shut down

 

[zeke]

Tyson Barrie is way more talented than anything we've added. TJ Brodie is a better hockey player, for sure, but there's no way to spin that as adding talent.

Seems you're equating "talent" only to "puckskills", which is a bit off. Brodie is more talented in all other facets of the game, including skating, transition, and defense. Barrie's greatest asset was on the PP, where that talent was actually just redundant and cannibalized Rielly's contributions.

Joe Thornton was never one of the elite talents, even at his best.

Wat.

Matthews, Tavares, Marner, Nylander, Hyman, Mikheyev, Kerfoot, Simmonds, and Spezza are all locks for me. That leaves Thornton, Vesey, and Engvall competing with those guys for roster slots.

I wouldn't lock Simmonds in for anything. Nor Spezza.

Of all the guys after Kerfoot, the best bet to be a legit contributor is Big Joe.

But I expect a fierce battle for all of those last 5 slots all year from all 9 of Thornton, Spezza, Vesey, Simmonds, Engvall, Boyd, Robertson, Barabanov, Anderson.