Sheldon Keefe Discussion

[Wafflewhipper]

Damn what did i just do lol

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

 

[LeafsNation75]

Why is it so hard for people to understand the reason we sputtered after the hot start under Keefe was due to half our defense including our 2 best being injured and our starting goalie played his worst hockey of his career?

You used the lightning winning without Stamkos as an example which isn't even close to the same situation. That's 1 player and Point is a 1C. They are also stacked 4 lines deep and were also stacked on defense who were healthy. Lets compare.
Sergachev Hedman
Cernak McDonagh
Schenn Shattenkirk
Bogosian Coburn

To

Dermott Barrie
Sandin Marincin
Liljegren Holl

How many games do you expect a team to win with 2 rookie defensemen, Martin Marincin playing heavy minutes in the top 4 and your starting goalie playing at something like an .870 sv%. If we had a full healthy squad, my guess is our record would have been closer to our hot streak than our cold streak. Saying every team has injuries is crap. Not every team is missing 3 of their 6D and 2 top6 forwards all at the same time.

One of those games when Muzzin got hurt was against Tampa Bay when they defeated them 4-3 on February 25th.

 

[X66]

Keefe was incredible.

With the injuries we had and the crappy start we had, making the playoffs would have taken a huge run, which we had!

Also, we were one of the best PK teams in the league when he took over, but this is mostly because of Hakstol, who admitted that Babcock didn’t let him do some things.

 

[LeafsNation75]

Keefe was incredible.

With the injuries we had and the crappy start we had, making the playoffs would have taken a huge run, which we had!

Also, we were one of the best PK teams in the league when he took over, but this is mostly because of Hakstol, who admitted that Babcock didn’t let him do some things.

I wonder what the Leafs record would have been from the start of last season if Shanahan had approved Dubas firing Babcock after losing to Boston in the 2019 playoffs since he wanted to do it at that time.

Although to his credit at least Shanahan admitted he was wrong for not letting Dubas do it at that time.

 

[Pookie]

Keefe was incredible.

With the injuries we had and the crappy start we had, making the playoffs would have taken a huge run, which we had!

Also, we were one of the best PK teams in the league when he took over, but this is mostly because of Hakstol, who admitted that Babcock didn’t let him do some things.

well technically, we could have made the playoffs if the Leafs didn’t go 11-9-3 in their last 23 games. Or if they were able to win a series.

but carry on.

 

[LeafsNation75]

well technically, we could have made the playoffs if the Leafs didn’t go 11-9-3 in their last 23 games. Or if they were able to win a series.

but carry on.

If the Leafs did not go 9-10-4 with Babcock to start last season, maybe with Keefe from the first game they would have been in a better position to where they didn't need to play Columbus in a qualifying series and perhaps finished among the top 4 teams in the Eastern Conference who were automatically given playoff spots.

 

[Pookie]

If the Leafs did not go 9-10-4 with Babcock to start last season, maybe with Keefe from the first game they would have been in a better position to where they didn't need to play Columbus in a qualifying series and perhaps finished among the top 4 teams in the Eastern Conference who were automatically given playoff spots.

I agree.

the first 23 games were bad. As were the last 23. Objectively speaking.

Keefe even had a better back up goalie.

 

[LeafsNation75]

I agree.

the first 23 games were bad. As were the last 23. Objectively speaking.

Keefe even had a better back up goalie.

Kyle Dubas did not trade for Jack Campbell until February 5, 2020 and his Leafs debut was not until February 7, 2020.

At least you can remember an important fact like that before saying Keefe had a better back up.

 

[meefer]

Perhaps we could cool the jets? Keefe hasn't had a full year at the helm and yet discussions of firing him billow up like smoke round a campfire. Like in all the Dubas threads, might we be better served by asking if things are improving instead of debating what might happen if things don't improve? We'd all sleep better is my take. So far, I like what I've seen with Keefe. I like what I've seen with Dubas. I think the team is further ahead than when under the control by Lou and Mike. Posters harp on our cap structure, how we're thin, our depth not being great. I'll suggest that a roster that includes: Matthews, Marner, Nylander, Tavares, Rielly, Muzzin, and Brodie, needs to be critiqued from within the dressing room, not management or coaching. Whether you like management and coaching or not, I don't think you can argue that Toronto has done a good job of giving the players a solid chance to succeed. Top flight training facilities, medical facilities, skill development programs, etc. are in place. On ice talent is in place. Experience and leadership on the ice is in place. Competition for playing time is in place. We have a player's coach who shows flexibility, a special teams coach, a highly praised skills/players coach, and a former Jack Adams winner to offer ideas and balance...certainly, this has to be considered at least adequate by NHL standards, and quite possibly better than some appreciate. My point: it's on the players! This is a talented team. Perform as such.

 

[LEAFANFORLIFE23]

Perhaps we could cool the jets? Keefe hasn't had a full year at the helm and yet discussions of firing him billow up like smoke round a campfire. Like in all the Dubas threads, might we be better served by asking if things are improving instead of debating what might happen if things don't improve? We'd all sleep better is my take. So far, I like what I've seen with Keefe. I like what I've seen with Dubas. I think the team is further ahead than when under the control by Lou and Mike. Posters harp on our cap structure, how we're thin, our depth not being great. I'll suggest that a roster that includes: Matthews, Marner, Nylander, Tavares, Rielly, Muzzin, and Brodie, needs to be critiqued from within the dressing room, not management or coaching. Whether you like management and coaching or not, I don't think you can argue that Toronto has done a good job of giving the players a solid chance to succeed. Top flight training facilities, medical facilities, skill development programs, etc. are in place. On ice talent is in place. Experience and leadership on the ice is in place. Competition for playing time is in place. We have a player's coach who shows flexibility, a special teams coach, a highly praised skills/players coach, and a former Jack Adams winner to offer ideas and balance...certainly, this has to be considered at least adequate by NHL standards, and quite possibly better than some appreciate. My point: it's on the players! This is a talented team. Perform as such.

All I'm suggesting is if this team fails to make progress again it's not crazy to think Dubas gets fired, if that happens a new guy might mean a ew coach.

I'm not even suggesting it's fair I'm suggesting it could happen if they fail again

 

[meefer]

All I'm suggesting is if this team fails to make progress again it's not crazy to think Dubas gets fired, if that happens a new guy might mean a ew coach.

I'm not even suggesting it's fair I'm suggesting it could happen if they fail again

Of course, and please realize I was not attempting to bash anyone. I might not agree with someone's take, but I'll try to discuss as opposed to saying they are wrong and I'm right. Who knows, I might even learn something out of the exchange.

That said, while I understand the disappointment we fans have been dealing with over the years, the concerns about Keefe and Dubas, are to me, overstated. Granted, neither is perfect. But, I look at this roster and I'm impressed. It too is not perfect, but damn, it's a good group of players we have. Up front the only two rookies I see having a place in the roster are Robertson and Barabanov. Everyone else is experienced and has had some success in the league. Defense, I see it similarly; the only rookie being Lehtonen, and he's 26 and the best the K has to offer. I think Andersen will rebound, maybe not to his best years, but rebound nonetheless and we've two capable backups. Even our taxi squad has players with experience and some talent. If this team doesn't have the type of success we anticipate, I lay it at the feet of the players. I hope ownership and Shanahan see it the same way.

 

[Pookie]

Kyle Dubas did not trade for Jack Campbell until February 5, 2020 and his Leafs debut was not until February 7, 2020.

At least you can remember an important fact like that before saying Keefe had a better back up.

If you recall the post you quoted me in, I was comparing Keefe’s LAST 23 games to close out the season.

A quick glance at the calendar would demonstrate that the last 23 games of the season would include games in the month of February.

 

[Dreakmur]

Perhaps we could cool the jets? Keefe hasn't had a full year at the helm and yet discussions of firing him billow up like smoke round a campfire. Like in all the Dubas threads, might we be better served by asking if things are improving instead of debating what might happen if things don't improve? We'd all sleep better is my take. So far, I like what I've seen with Keefe. I like what I've seen with Dubas. I think the team is further ahead than when under the control by Lou and Mike. Posters harp on our cap structure, how we're thin, our depth not being great. I'll suggest that a roster that includes: Matthews, Marner, Nylander, Tavares, Rielly, Muzzin, and Brodie, needs to be critiqued from within the dressing room, not management or coaching. Whether you like management and coaching or not, I don't think you can argue that Toronto has done a good job of giving the players a solid chance to succeed. Top flight training facilities, medical facilities, skill development programs, etc. are in place. On ice talent is in place. Experience and leadership on the ice is in place. Competition for playing time is in place. We have a player's coach who shows flexibility, a special teams coach, a highly praised skills/players coach, and a former Jack Adams winner to offer ideas and balance...certainly, this has to be considered at least adequate by NHL standards, and quite possibly better than some appreciate. My point: it's on the players! This is a talented team. Perform as such.

I don’t necessarily disagree, but if the players can’t get it done, that means management signed the wrong ones, righ?

 

[Pookie]

Perhaps we could cool the jets? Keefe hasn't had a full year at the helm and yet discussions of firing him billow up like smoke round a campfire. Like in all the Dubas threads, might we be better served by asking if things are improving instead of debating what might happen if things don't improve? We'd all sleep better is my take. So far, I like what I've seen with Keefe. I like what I've seen with Dubas. I think the team is further ahead than when under the control by Lou and Mike. Posters harp on our cap structure, how we're thin, our depth not being great. I'll suggest that a roster that includes: Matthews, Marner, Nylander, Tavares, Rielly, Muzzin, and Brodie, needs to be critiqued from within the dressing room, not management or coaching. Whether you like management and coaching or not, I don't think you can argue that Toronto has done a good job of giving the players a solid chance to succeed. Top flight training facilities, medical facilities, skill development programs, etc. are in place. On ice talent is in place. Experience and leadership on the ice is in place. Competition for playing time is in place. We have a player's coach who shows flexibility, a special teams coach, a highly praised skills/players coach, and a former Jack Adams winner to offer ideas and balance...certainly, this has to be considered at least adequate by NHL standards, and quite possibly better than some appreciate. My point: it's on the players! This is a talented team. Perform as such.

At risk of stating a subject that shouldn't be contentious, firing Keefe wouldn't likely accomplish anything.

The impact of a coach on the outcome of a season is minimal at best. The Leafs have over 17 different coaches, analysts and consultants. That's in addition to any other ones that the players have on their own (eg. a psychologist or performance folks).

I wholeheartedly agree that performance is on the players. A healthy and talented roster should perform to expectations.

It is however fair to question whether the collection of players assembled is the right one. And if it's not, can management make the proper moves to provide the right mix.

To answer that one, you need to look well above the coaching ranks.

 

[X66]

I agree.

the first 23 games were bad. As were the last 23. Objectively speaking.

Keefe even had a better back up goalie.

I'm not going to completely shit on Babcock, because at one time he was the right coach for the team, and IMHO he did make a lot of players better.

BUT, as time went on, you got to see more of his warts, which we will with Keefe no doubt, but the warts that Babcock was showing were ones that were stuck in the past.

In those 47 games under Keefe, with all those injuries, the team still played at over a 100 point pace, they were in the top 10 for 5 on 5 xG rates and on the penalty kill they allowed the 3rd fewest chances. Like even the penalty kill part, that's more Hakstol than Keefe, but it was Hakstol that said he went to Keefe to ask to try new things, hinting that Babcock wouldn't allow it. It's little things like that, which add up. Our PK has been trash in every playoff series under Babcock, and when you hear things like that, it just makes you shake your head.

And the first 23 games and the last 23 games are very different, and not really fair to Keefe.

Look at the injury lists these guys had to deal with...

Babcock
Hyman missed 19 games
Dermott missed 13 games
Tavares missed 7 games
Marner missed 5 games

Keefe
Mikheyev missed 31 games (all of the last 23)
Johnsson missed 27 games (12 of the last 23)
Rielly missed 23 games (22 of the last 23)
Muzzin missed 17 games (8 of the last 23)
Ceci missed 14 games (14 of the last 23)
Marner missed 6 games

 

[Faltorvo]

Perhaps we could cool the jets? Keefe hasn't had a full year at the helm and yet discussions of firing him billow up like smoke round a campfire. Like in all the Dubas threads, might we be better served by asking if things are improving instead of debating what might happen if things don't improve? We'd all sleep better is my take. So far, I like what I've seen with Keefe. I like what I've seen with Dubas. I think the team is further ahead than when under the control by Lou and Mike. Posters harp on our cap structure, how we're thin, our depth not being great. I'll suggest that a roster that includes: Matthews, Marner, Nylander, Tavares, Rielly, Muzzin, and Brodie, needs to be critiqued from within the dressing room, not management or coaching. Whether you like management and coaching or not, I don't think you can argue that Toronto has done a good job of giving the players a solid chance to succeed. Top flight training facilities, medical facilities, skill development programs, etc. are in place. On ice talent is in place. Experience and leadership on the ice is in place. Competition for playing time is in place. We have a player's coach who shows flexibility, a special teams coach, a highly praised skills/players coach, and a former Jack Adams winner to offer ideas and balance...certainly, this has to be considered at least adequate by NHL standards, and quite possibly better than some appreciate. My point: it's on the players! This is a talented team. Perform as such.

I honesty find the Keefe backing to be a steaming pile of hypocrite( this is directed to those in general)

Babcock got roasted and eventually fired for losing in game 7 to the Eastern champs,,in many eyes here "the was not good enough" yada BS, yada BS

King Quiff can't even qualify for the playoffs thanks to a pretty damn feeble team,as we saw Columbus get quickly booted from the real playoffs.

Kinda funny how the big blue gets a time laps reset as long as they fire someone folks are crying about.

Keefe let them play the hockey "THEY" want , so they came off strike and we saw a short bump

When it came time to play the style Babs was forcing on them (PO style hockey) they folded like a wet suit against a mediocre team. Keefes style is not PO hockey.

We are really looking like the Capitals of 10 years ago,,,, when they had high octane rosters with
ovi 50g
semin 40g
backstrom 33g
green PPG

2nd line 3 ,23+ goal forwards.

lots of ooooohhhhh ahhhhhh in the reg season,,,,, and crap come man up time.

 

[OldTimeHockey]

I think the last 23 games under Keefe including the play in round VS Columbus is proof that the players didn't really know better. With or without Babcock, this team ended up on the outside looking in and to me that falls squarely on the players.

 

[JT AM da real deal]

Fletcher was only (interim) GM in comparison though. Do you think Shanahan would accept going from his current role to advisor? Would the team want to retain him for that if they were looking to replace him?

He is under contract for another few years on an amazing deal so ZERO chance he gets that coin anywhere else ... he really has no say in how that goes unless he wants to forgo his comp plan which he won't

 

[Dekes For Days]

Keefe is safe.

 

[Wafflewhipper]

Keefe was incredible.

With the injuries we had and the crappy start we had, making the playoffs would have taken a huge run, which we had!

Also, we were one of the best PK teams in the league when he took over, but this is mostly because of Hakstol, who admitted that Babcock didn’t let him do some things.

Oh really Babcock was stubborn was he.
I haven’t read anything where he blamed Babcock for it. Is there a link to that?

 

[Wafflewhipper]

I wonder what the Leafs record would have been from the start of last season if Shanahan had approved Dubas firing Babcock after losing to Boston in the 2019 playoffs since he wanted to do it at that time.

Although to his credit at least Shanahan admitted he was wrong for not letting Dubas do it at that time.

Much better is my guess. Walk in the park for playoffs instead of skin of the teething it.

 

[Wafflewhipper]

Kyle Dubas did not trade for Jack Campbell until February 5, 2020 and his Leafs debut was not until February 7, 2020.

At least you can remember an important fact like that before saying Keefe had a better back up.

Actually Hutch was better under keefe. He used him properly against weaker teams etc. Injuries and Freddy struggling killed us

 

[Wafflewhipper]

Perhaps we could cool the jets? Keefe hasn't had a full year at the helm and yet discussions of firing him billow up like smoke round a campfire. Like in all the Dubas threads, might we be better served by asking if things are improving instead of debating what might happen if things don't improve? We'd all sleep better is my take. So far, I like what I've seen with Keefe. I like what I've seen with Dubas. I think the team is further ahead than when under the control by Lou and Mike. Posters harp on our cap structure, how we're thin, our depth not being great. I'll suggest that a roster that includes: Matthews, Marner, Nylander, Tavares, Rielly, Muzzin, and Brodie, needs to be critiqued from within the dressing room, not management or coaching. Whether you like management and coaching or not, I don't think you can argue that Toronto has done a good job of giving the players a solid chance to succeed. Top flight training facilities, medical facilities, skill development programs, etc. are in place. On ice talent is in place. Experience and leadership on the ice is in place. Competition for playing time is in place. We have a player's coach who shows flexibility, a special teams coach, a highly praised skills/players coach, and a former Jack Adams winner to offer ideas and balance...certainly, this has to be considered at least adequate by NHL standards, and quite possibly better than some appreciate. My point: it's on the players! This is a talented team. Perform as such.

Keefe isn’t going anywhere and neither is Dubas. Babcock was setting the team back. They just have to make a little ground up on systems. Dubas changed course some for chemistry. All good, the players are on the clock to play and win and lose very little. Andersen needs to not return to form but return even a bit better and more intense. The rest will fall in to place and every bit of it is on the players. They need to act like a team.

 

[Wafflewhipper]

I don’t necessarily disagree, but if the players can’t get it done, that means management signed the wrong ones, righ?

I think he really is pointing to the core guys. They have been here so its on them. Not recent signings. Thats my take

 

[Wafflewhipper]

Keefe is safe.

Yeah he clearly is.