Sheldon Keefe Discussion

[IPS]

Agree with most except for the size and vision comment.

I don't see tinkering with the bottom group as being anything significant this offseason. I like that they added Simmonds but they also subtracted Clifford... who left for less money.

I'm not convinced that Keefe will play him. Keefe seemed to have a weird use for Clifford... playing him as low as 3 mins and as high as 11. Most games were well under 10 mins of ice time.

And I don't think one dude is going to encourage the Quitter Core to show up and play with grit. I'm hoping Thornton is that influence that can change those attitudes.

The Quitter Core?

 

[moon111]

Let's back up here

...after the game, one player gave the fans the salute... Komorav and Franson almost joined him. Phil Kessel went to Phaneuf and as leaders of the Leafs, made sure they snubbed the fans. Let's get one thing straight. You're hated. These players have about as much love for you as Melania has for Donald.
Criticize all you want, but organizationally, there's been big changes since Shanahan stepped in. 1. A much needed tear down, rebuild. 2. Culture changes. 3. Being a player-first club. 4. Treating players fairly.

What assets did Shanahan have? Pretty much every player another team might of wanted (and some players nobody wanted) had a trade clause and was probably over-paid. Dave Nonnis was so bad, the outcome was either burn up these contracts or retain like they did with Kessel. When you criticise problems with the Leafs salary cap, just remember that Dubas has: Jimmy Vessey, Nicholas Robertson, Jason Spezza, Joe Thornton, Zach Bogosian, Mikko Lehtonen, Rasmus Sandin, and Travis Dermott all on the Leafs roster for less we're still paying for Phil Kessel. If the goal was to have a nice house, the Leafs have had to tear it down to Rielly, Kadri, and maybe a few later round picks. The job would of been easier starting with a clean slate as an expansion club.

Dubas takes over. Kadri was already an interesting proposition for another team. He fools me once, twice... he's gone. Maybe he didn't want to go? But it was the best for everyone. Kadri's career is better off and had he stayed, one more mess-up might of ended Dubas's career. This was a deal, like Kessel's where you're taking the best you can get. We got rid of Zaitsev. We got rid of Marleau. We got rid of Babcock. Fans are upset the house isn't finished... but last year they were still doing some demolishion.

I honestly think this is season #1 where the Leafs might be at a point where during this rebuild, they're not demolishing but replacing and improving parts. Tyson Barrie was like a garage door that didn't match the rest of the house. Josh Leivo wasn't held hostage. But the flip side is, Dubas has other players willing to explore Toronto as a destination. In a city where the fans and media bring so much unrealistic expectations and hate towards the players, the team has shown it cares about them.

Keefe has just started... give the guy a chance.

 

[nsleaf]

Skill: when someone is good at something useful.

Talent: when someone is good at something useless.

 

[ToneDog]

Let's back up here

...after the game, one player gave the fans the salute... Komorav and Franson almost joined him. Phil Kessel went to Phaneuf and as leaders of the Leafs, made sure they snubbed the fans. Let's get one thing straight. You're hated. These players have about as much love for you as Melania has for Donald.
Criticize all you want, but organizationally, there's been big changes since Shanahan stepped in. 1. A much needed tear down, rebuild. 2. Culture changes. 3. Being a player-first club. 4. Treating players fairly.

What assets did Shanahan have? Pretty much every player another team might of wanted (and some players nobody wanted) had a trade clause and was probably over-paid. Dave Nonnis was so bad, the outcome was either burn up these contracts or retain like they did with Kessel. When you criticise problems with the Leafs salary cap, just remember that Dubas has: Jimmy Vessey, Nicholas Robertson, Jason Spezza, Joe Thornton, Zach Bogosian, Mikko Lehtonen, Rasmus Sandin, and Travis Dermott all on the Leafs roster for less we're still paying for Phil Kessel. If the goal was to have a nice house, the Leafs have had to tear it down to Rielly, Kadri, and maybe a few later round picks. The job would of been easier starting with a clean slate as an expansion club.

Dubas takes over. Kadri was already an interesting proposition for another team. He fools me once, twice... he's gone. Maybe he didn't want to go? But it was the best for everyone. Kadri's career is better off and had he stayed, one more mess-up might of ended Dubas's career. This was a deal, like Kessel's where you're taking the best you can get. We got rid of Zaitsev. We got rid of Marleau. We got rid of Babcock. Fans are upset the house isn't finished... but last year they were still doing some demolishion.

I honestly think this is season #1 where the Leafs might be at a point where during this rebuild, they're not demolishing but replacing and improving parts. Tyson Barrie was like a garage door that didn't match the rest of the house. Josh Leivo wasn't held hostage. But the flip side is, Dubas has other players willing to explore Toronto as a destination. In a city where the fans and media bring so much unrealistic expectations and hate towards the players, the team has shown it cares about them.

Keefe has just started... give the guy a chance.

The players in this city are adored, treated like celebrities and put up high on a pedestals by 99% Leaf fans in this city. If anything that is more of a problem than the little "hate" for the players there is

 

[Pookie]

The Quitter Core?

self explanatory

quit on the coach. Quit on each other.

 

[zeke]

Leafs' Defense - Expected Goals Against, All Situations

Babcock '17: #28 (plyff: #6 of 16)
Babcock '18: #22 (plyff: #12 of 16)
Babcock '19: #22 (plyff: #15 of 16)
Babcock '20: #26
Keefe '20: #10 (plyff: #6 of 24)

And Keefe did that even while only having his top-2 dmen both dressed for only a handful of games.


Wonderful having a coach that is willing and able to coach his team to its strengths.

 

[Faltorvo]

Sometimes the right ingredients don't fit together if the mix is wrong. For the most part, I agree with your view. However, is it not fair to say that many in the hockey community admire the talent on our team? Just as our management does. I like the talent, if it doesn't jell, I feel it's on the players, no excuses. You(?), others may think management.



Absolutely fair comment, as is what follows. My comments are made based on my belief that this team's players are the right ones based on talent. Dubas and Lou are largely responsible for the players on the team (is Rielly the last of Burke's additions?), so while not perfect, I trust Dubas can adjust the mix as required. Essentially, I see no reason why this team shouldn't jell. I like the mix. 7 top end players who would fit on any teams top two lines or D pairings. 7 or 8 players most teams would be happy to mix in on lines 2-4. 6 players who are adequately established, have upside, are young and talented or grizzled and hungry. We have a taxi squad where I think 1/2/3 of the players can contribute, and that some other teams would be happy to have in their systems. Do they take to each other? I think they should, and I see no reason they shouldn't. If they don't, Dubas will have his work cut out for him. And then we'll both know whether he was the right man for the job.



While I respect that people value different styles of management and coaching, it takes a special type of obstinate viewpoint to ignore so many discussions that help explain why things went south. Yes, it was a bad and disappointing year, we get it. But, when they played better under Keefe than Babcock, when Dubas appears to have provided us with a D corp better than we've seen in years, when balance and maturity and guidance seems to be higher than last year...do these additions not provide you with some hope?

meefer

we fans have been "making excuses" , rationalized away fault for them , year after year after year

it's what we do, and let me tell you, Leafs fans are arguably the best at it

what i posted ,is what i believe to be fair and accurate , i just don't have it in me to defend this product

after they took dubas to the bank ,, they have to start earning our die hard loyalty again

from what i gather from many here is,,"they"(the players got what they wanted,overpaid and that mean Ogre of a coach fired) and their repayment? fail to even make the POs to a mediocre team at best. This team is backsliding.

i see this team as a paper tiger , there is new paper this year ,maybe the tiger shows up,maybe it does not,i'm not holding my breath

i believe that dubass is a gawd awful GM and Keefe does not have them playing PO hockey

i am really really really looking forward to this reg season , where EVERY game is a 4 point game

either these overpaid,overhyped kids will meet the challenge of a 56 game playoff level reg season or they will wilt on the vine like we have seen over and over again.

 

[Faltorvo]

What would those holes be, and might they be lessened if this team's character became an asset?

4 ply paper soft,,,too many "oh that's not part of my game" players

going to the hard/dirty areas
pssn the other team off
drawing PMs
drawing together like a pack of rabbid wolves EVERYTIME there is a scrum or "why i otta"

and i could go on and on if i cared enough

 

[meefer]

meefer

we fans have been "making excuses" , rationalized away fault for them , year after year after year

it's what we do, and let me tell you, Leafs fans are arguably the best at it

what i posted ,is what i believe to be fair and accurate , i just don't have it in me to defend this product

after they took dubas to the bank ,, they have to start earning our die hard loyalty again

from what i gather from many here is,,"they"(the players got what they wanted,overpaid and that mean Ogre of a coach fired) and their repayment? fail to even make the POs to a mediocre team at best. This team is backsliding.

i see this team as a paper tiger , there is new paper this year ,maybe the tiger shows up,maybe it does not,i'm not holding my breath

i believe that dubass is a gawd awful GM and Keefe does not have them playing PO hockey

i am really really really looking forward to this reg season , where EVERY game is a 4 point game

either these overpaid,overhyped kids will meet the challenge of a 56 game playoff level reg season or they will wilt on the vine like we have seen over and over again.

I'm not really sure how to respond to you, Faltorvo. I certainly don't wish to appear condescending or aggressive towards your opinions. Being a Leafs fan is a special kind of difficult, we all know it
But to the bolded, I try not to defend, but I do try to take into account realities. This week especially, I've mentioned a number of times that I think the team has no excuse for not succeeding, but that the responsibility lies with the players. I think that Dubas is solidly addressing areas that have been lacking for years and that after last season's loss to Columbus he evaluated and charted a new course. I agree with you his contract negotiations with the 3 could have gone better, but would things have improved in Lou had signed Nylander to a better deal? Conjecture, we'll never know. Keefe is young, but I believe he has a good hockey mind. Before condemning him I'll watch his work over a full season, utilizing the staff he has had a hand in picking and see how the players respond. Backsliding...you win with numbers, but context does count, yes? Under Keefe they were playing at a better pace than under Babcock, by the numbers. Neither coach was successful when it counted. I'm going to try to be optimistic about how things develop under him this coming season. Regardless, I like the 4 point games all season too. I think they are the best in their division, and the time for excuses is over. It's up to the players. I hope you find some positives to enjoy as training camp ensues and we move into the season. Cheers.

 

[meefer]

4 ply paper soft,,,too many "oh that's not part of my game" players

going to the hard/dirty areas
pssn the other team off
drawing PMs
drawing together like a pack of rabbid wolves EVERYTIME there is a scrum or "why i otta"

and i could go on and on if i cared enough

Got to this after the first.

I think there were some improvements in getting to the hard and dirty. More is required and I believe we've added a few who will do so.
I'm not sure this will ever be a group that pisses the other team off, but I started a thread a few days ago re: fighting, where I stated I believe we'll increase our trips to the box substantially this year.
Rabbid wolves...funnily, in the thread about fighting, I mentioned that I think the addition of Thornton is going to help provide that spark, specifically by needling the team about how Spezza was the fella to spark the team against C. He'll be joking with Jason, but the team will get the message. But your right, it's time they stood up for each other.

 

[Menzinger]

Clifford averaged over 9 and half minutes during the regular season last year. I dont know where this fictional notion that Keefe never played him comes from. He got average 4th line usage.

He basically got the same usage in the post season, minus one game when he got benched.

 

[ottomaddox]

"Good Pro" criticism of Babcock RIP.

Now Keefe is carrying on the "Good Pro" tradition using Thornton on the top line.

 

[ShaneFalco]

 

[ShaneFalco]

"Good Pro" criticism of Babcock RIP.

Now Keefe is carrying on the "Good Pro" tradition using Thornton on the top line.

Hmmmm i didn't think the season had started yet and that line combos were etched in stone

 

[ottomaddox]

Hmmmm i didn't think the season had started yet and that line combos were etched in stone

I do have faith in that, but it's a short camp and a short season. Initial warts are not too welcomed by me.

 

[Wafflewhipper]

Training camps goal in a nutshell from Keefer.
Sheldon Keefe’s Opening Statement

I am very excited about the players that we have added and the group that we have assembled here. The changes to the coaching staff, and the additions that we have made there, have me looking at things with lots of positivity and optimism. At the same time, the experience we had in the qualification round and the loss that we suffered there, we still feel that.
That is perhaps what excites me the most: The opportunity to continue to grow with the people that we have added and the renewed focus of the returning players that we have as well. That is a source of great excitement here. We are ready to go.
The foundation for our season is going to be set here in training camp. It is a fresh start for me. It is my first real opportunity here with what feels like a team that I helped build and be a part of the process — having an opportunity to speak with players, chat with them, and get them in the right frame of mind coming into a camp like this. Our focus is going to be on building habits and setting standards that are going to be necessary for us to have success. That starts in training camp in day one.
The specific focus for us is going to be on competitiveness, physicality, and structure. Those are going to be the three key areas for us. How I really simply define that: Our ability to make it difficult to get to our net, get in people’s way, make it a tough pathway to get access to our zone and to our net, and then to fight for space to get good ice and clear access to the opponent’s net. It’s as simple as that for me. That is where the competitiveness comes in.
In terms of the consistency, that is a whole other area for us. That standard is going to be set with our habits from day one of training camp. We will be ready to go with that starting tomorrow morning.
The camp itself is going to be really focused on practices and practice habits in in-game situations. We are going to build the habits out in that format. We will have two scrimmages throughout camp — one that is going to be over in SBA in a full game-like setting. We are going to get started right from day one. We will have two very distinct groups established right from day one tomorrow and we will get to work from there.​

Sheldon

 

[ottomaddox]

Leafs' Defense - Expected Goals Against, All Situations

Babcock '17: #28 (plyff: #6 of 16)
Babcock '18: #22 (plyff: #12 of 16)
Babcock '19: #22 (plyff: #15 of 16)
Babcock '20: #26
Keefe '20: #10 (plyff: #6 of 24)

And Keefe did that even while only having his top-2 dmen both dressed for only a handful of games.


Wonderful having a coach that is willing and able to coach his team to its strengths.

Which is what?

 

[zeke]

Which is what?

Keeping the puck, not chasing it.

 

[Zybalto]

Leafs' Defense - Expected Goals Against, All Situations

Babcock '17: #28 (plyff: #6 of 16)
Babcock '18: #22 (plyff: #12 of 16)
Babcock '19: #22 (plyff: #15 of 16)
Babcock '20: #26
Keefe '20: #10 (plyff: #6 of 24)

And Keefe did that even while only having his top-2 dmen both dressed for only a handful of games.


Wonderful having a coach that is willing and able to coach his team to its strengths.

The first 24 games under Keefe before Rielly went down (with Muzzin already out with that broken foot), the Leafs actually ranked as having the 7th best xGA/60 too.

When healthy, this team under Keefe has the best advanced numbers of any Leafs team since they started tracking them. Too small a sample size for many I'm guessing but when your a team with a young core thats a scoring machine and your defensive numbers are trending into the top ten, how could anyone not be optimistic? Let's see if those numbers hold up this year and a rebound in starting goaltending will certainly help shine a light on this massive improvement for those who cant look past goals against.

 

[ottomaddox]

Hey Sheldon!

Kerfoot is not a Center!

 

[Sypher04]

Hey Sheldon!

Kerfoot is not a Center!

That's one opinion and not a very well supported one. He played very well in the role at times last year and definitely in the play-in round. I think he has way more to give than we saw last year. His injuries and being bounced around the lineup didn't really let him get set the way anyone wanted

 

[ottomaddox]

That's one opinion and not a very well supported one. He played very well in the role at times last year and definitely in the play-in round

I disagree. His role was not well defined last season and he got eaten alive by the other team's 3rd line.

 

[Sypher04]

I disagree. His role was not well defined last season and he got eaten alive by the other team's 3rd line.

His role not being well defined is a big part of why he failed to have the season he should have and not on him. I believe he can play at least as well as he did vs Columbus

 

[The Podium]

I disagree. His role was not well defined last season and he got eaten alive by the other team's 3rd line.

He was better at C when healthy than any other position. The only time his play was poor was when he was playing through a fractured jaw and was on a soft food only diet.

 

[zeke]

Hey Sheldon!

Kerfoot is not a Center!

he certainly is. and a good one.