Salary Cap: Salary Cap Summer Part 3

[T1K]

Apparently Markov isn't coming back to MTL. I wouldn't hate having him here.

Regarding 3C, I'm not against having an internal competition for it. If no one shines then JR can make a move during the season. Soderberg with retention is still my preferred 3C though.

 

[Shady Machine]

I think Im leaning towards waiting as long as possible to see who's truly available. Any decent 3C will be there come deadline. And you can always pick guys up on waivers or buy low during the season if need be.

I'm hoping JR is as greedy as me.

If Cullen returns or Blueger shows he is ready for the NHL, then I am okay with this for now, but if not, then we need at least one more capable NHL center. We only have 3 when we should have 5.

 

[Jacob]

No cap room for Markov and we already have 8 D on one-way deals.

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

I'm not pining for Desharnais and giving him a one year, one million deal to be our #4C with Rowney and Reaves on his wings would give this team more depth and cost very little.

You do realize that money and that role is earmarked for a potential Cullen return, right?

So to be clear, you would advocate passing on a potential Cullen return so we could sign Desharnais, a worse player in every facet of the game.

I think that people will be way more surprised how much this team will be hurt if we lose both Cullen and Bonino and expect them to be replaced. To your comments about Fehr. Rowney was Fehr last year. Right now, we are asking Rowney to be Cullen. Do you think we are going to roll into the season with a solid answer at 3C, Matt Cullen, and Rowney all on this roster?

We're not asking Rowney to be Cullen. In fact, we are waiting on Cullen. Because it's July, not October.

Would you go into the season with a combination of Cole, Maatta, Letang, and Schultz with Pooh and Ruh? Because right now that is essentially what we are running as our center depth.

Again, you're prematurely drawing conclusions about October based on our roster in July.

Why do you keep doing that? Here's the '17-'18 Pens schedule:

https://www.nhl.com/penguins/schedule/2017-10-01/ET

See, we don't start until October 4th. Right there in big, bold print.

What issues did Shero make in his back to back years in trades? Of course all of our trades panned out. That's how you win cups.

I have no idea what you're implying here.

Rutherford's record with trades while in Pittsburgh is impeccable overall, so your claim about there being an overpaid acquisition for every good acquisition is wrong.

It's the idea of having a bottom six combo like Fehr, Cullen, Bonino that insulates your young players. Right now our bottom six is a combo of Hagelin, Rowney and Cullen as "vets" with Wilson, Kuhn, Rust / Hornqvist filling it in. I don't know. I'm not advocating Desharnais is like a slam dunk or anything. Just a player that has proven he can play in the top six is what we need in our bottom six. Wilson, Kuhn, Rowney, and even Hagelin to this degree are all bottom sixers at this point. We need legitimate defensive depth in our bottom six and right now we only have it in Hagelin and Rowney really.

So...you say "we need legitimate defensive depth in our bottom 6" but you're going on about Desharnais, who's terrible defensively, and whose acquisition would preclude us signing Cullen, who's better than Desharnais at everything.

 

[SEALBound]

Apparently Markov isn't coming back to MTL. I wouldn't hate having him here.

Regarding 3C, I'm not against having an internal competition for it. If no one shines then JR can make a move during the season. Soderberg with retention is still my preferred 3C though.

No because of:

No cap room for Markov and we already have 8 D on one-way deals.

This.

Maatta-Letang
Dumo-Schultz
Cole-Hunwick
Rudwedel-Pouliot

Where is Markov supposed to fit in? Tell me why Markov at -whatever he will sign for- is a better option than Rudwedel.

 

[Shady Machine]

I wouldn't put the odds on a Cullen return to Pittsburgh very high, so I think pixies discussion on DD is at least reasonable.

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

I wouldn't put the odds on a Cullen return to Pittsburgh very high, so I think pixies discussion on DD is at least reasonable.

Would you sign Desharnais instead of allowing Cullen time to make his decision?

 

[Shady Machine]

Would you sign Desharnais instead of allowing Cullen time to make his decision?

No I don't think I would if the cap space was prohibitive. Of course, if they hadn't traded for Reaves, they'd have the money for DD and Cullen (well and they'd have Sunny around still).

I just think that center depth is extremely important and we are thinner right now (yes it's July) than we have been in years. We had Sutter around before the Bonino trade and Fehr signing, we had Staal before that. This is the first offseason since I can remember with this thin of center depth. I can be patient, but I would say I'm a tad concerned.

 

[ColePens]

Maybe we have a different definition of what a great 3C is because in my mind, nobody is trading a great 3C for a pick and freakin Kuhnhackl.

Then that's your fault for thinking of guys only like Duchene. When we got Bonino people didn't scream for joy. They just liked the move. Doesn't have to be a home run. Just have to fit well. There are guys out there who fit well who we've all discussed before.

We don't need a home run.

 

[Coastal Kev]

No I don't think I would if the cap space was prohibitive. Of course, if they hadn't traded for Reaves, they'd have the money for DD and Cullen (well and they'd have Sunny around still).

I just think that center depth is extremely important and we are thinner right now (yes it's July) than we have been in years. We had Sutter around before the Bonino trade and Fehr signing, we had Staal before that. This is the first offseason since I can remember with this thin of center depth. I can be patient, but I would say I'm a tad concerned.

Really? When you have won back to back cups, the real season for the team starts somewhere in February of 18.

 

[Shady Machine]

Then that's your fault for thinking of guys only like Duchene. When we got Bonino people didn't scream for joy. They just liked the move. Doesn't have to be a home run. Just have to fit well. There are guys out there who fit well who we've all discussed before.

We don't need a home run.

I didn't even say Duchene. Do you think the Boninos of the world are available for a 2nd + Kuhnhackl?

Also, and I know it's early, but this isn't just about replacing Bonino. It's about replacing Bonino AND Cullen. If Cullen comes back, that changes my thinking some, but even then, we are looking at a 41 year old. He needs to be sheltered to be most effective in the playoffs.

 

[Shaftception]

The one aspect of this offseason I'm still puzzled by is Yohe seemed adamant after they won the cup based on talks he'd had that the front office/coaches not only knew they had to acquire fresher legs so as to get back to the level of speed they played with for 16's Cup, but that they were damn near giddy to work with the perceived cap space they'd have this summer in order to do so.

Yet outside of letting the older/slower guys go instead of resigning them, and I guess if all else fails giving their roles to the Rowney's and Wilson's, they haven't really done much to prove that assertion.

So whether they wanted to and something went wrong (higher ufa/rfa costs than assumed), their plans to do so simply haven't come to fruition yet (trades), or they meant promoting from within all along, I hope we get clarification on that eventually. Resigning their rfa's and some vet 3rd line center to use up what's remaining of their cap space doesn't exactly come off to me as accomplishing that increased speed goal.

 

[Shady Machine]

Really? When you have won back to back cups, the real season for the team starts somewhere in February of 18.

Correct, but that doesn't mean the center position isn't very important and we need competent NHL players at that position between October and February.

We have a lot of winger depth and 8 Dmen on 1 way contracts with NHL experience (Pouliot is unproven, but he has several years pro experience). We can withstand injuries in those positions and be fine. We currently don't have enough NHL centers to ice a roster. Yeah internal competition for 4C is fine, but we don't have the horses for a 3C. Let's say we stay the course and let Rowney, Blueger, and whoever else fill in those spots. Can we survive and stay in playoff contention? Yes, but then Malkin has a nagging injury in November for a few weeks. Then what?

Again, I can be patient, but JR needs to bring in a competent 3C at least by October for me to be comfortable with the plan. I believe he will.

 

[Pens x]

Really? When you have won back to back cups, the real season for the team starts somewhere in February of 18.

I understand waiting until the Sheary deal is dealt with but why limp into the season with our center situation as is?

You can't just sit on your hands and think it's cool, we won the cup the last two years. You do realize that we played in 2 game 7's last year. It's not like the team swept it's way to the cup. We could have been eliminated pretty easily in the second round and everyone would be freaking out here.

Let's not think we are invincible.

 

[SCPens]

I'm not pining for Desharnais and giving him a one year, one million deal to be our #4C with Rowney and Reaves on his wings would give this team more depth and cost very little.

I think that people will be way more surprised how much this team will be hurt if we lose both Cullen and Bonino and expect them to be replaced. To your comments about Fehr. Rowney was Fehr last year. Right now, we are asking Rowney to be Cullen. Do you think we are going to roll into the season with a solid answer at 3C, Matt Cullen, and Rowney all on this roster?

I'm advocating bringing in a risk so we have depth at center because we've seen how decimated this team gets by injuries and we can basically handle it at every position, but center.

Would you go into the season with a combination of Cole, Maatta, Letang, and Schultz with Pooh and Ruh? Because right now that is essentially what we are running as our center depth.

What issues did Shero make in his back to back years in trades? Of course all of our trades panned out. That's how you win cups.

It's the idea of having a bottom six combo like Fehr, Cullen, Bonino that insulates your young players. Right now our bottom six is a combo of Hagelin, Rowney and Cullen as "vets" with Wilson, Kuhn, Rust / Hornqvist filling it in. I don't know. I'm not advocating Desharnais is like a slam dunk or anything. Just a player that has proven he can play in the top six is what we need in our bottom six. Wilson, Kuhn, Rowney, and even Hagelin to this degree are all bottom sixers at this point. We need legitimate defensive depth in our bottom six and right now we only have it in Hagelin and Rowney really.

I get it, you're related to Desharnais! Have you watched this cat play hockey the past 2 seasons by chance? He's aweful. He wouldn't do any better than Rowney in the top 6 if Sid lost a leg and Geno an arm. And once again just for the record, the regular season begins October 4th. I think Jimmy's on it.

 

[ColePens]

I didn't even say Duchene. Do you think the Boninos of the world are available for a 2nd + Kuhnhackl?

Also, and I know it's early, but this isn't just about replacing Bonino. It's about replacing Bonino AND Cullen. If Cullen comes back, that changes my thinking some, but even then, we are looking at a 41 year old. He needs to be sheltered to be most effective in the playoffs.

You don't think closer to the deadline we can grab a 3C for a pick? Really? Or if you wanted to try to go to LV right now and grab a guy like William Karlsson (if you want to go that route)? Or let's go crazy and say Toronto actually wants to move Bozak due to cap issues (they don't have to). They would want a pick + something cheap.

I think there are a ton of options out there.

 

[Peat]

Solid 3Cs mostly seem to go for a 2nd at best, 2 2nds seems more usual. Kuhnhackl isn't worth a 2nd imo. Unless the pick is the 1st, Kuhnhackl and pick will be doing well to get the player we want.

And I'd really rather not wait until the trade deadline to solve 3C. Maybe we can get by before then, maybe we can't, but not every player is an instant hit at their new team. I'd like us to get our new 3C with plenty of time to bed in/give us time to trade again if we made a mistake - I don't want us going into the play-offs with the 3C version of Washington-style Shattenkirk.

The one aspect of this offseason I'm still puzzled by is Yohe seemed adamant after they won the cup based on talks he'd had that the front office/coaches not only knew they had to acquire fresher legs so as to get back to the level of speed they played with for 16's Cup, but that they were damn near giddy to work with the perceived cap space they'd have this summer in order to do so.

Yet outside of letting the older/slower guys go instead of resigning them, and I guess if all else fails giving their roles to the Rowney's and Wilson's, they haven't really done much to prove that assertion.

So whether they wanted to and something went wrong (higher ufa/rfa costs than assumed), their plans to do so simply haven't come to fruition yet (trades), or they meant promoting from within all along, I hope we get clarification on that eventually. Resigning their rfa's and some vet 3rd line center to use up what's remaining of their cap space doesn't exactly come off to me as accomplishing that increased speed goal.

Maybe Yohe was wrong about what they wanted. He was certainly wrong if he thought we had plenty of cap space to work with this summer, it was fairly obvious most of the money would go on tying up our RFAs.

 

[Jag68Sid87]

And personally I get sick of when people call Ron Hainsey a trash dman when he played legit minutes for the Pens and was actually a huge part of their success. He didn't deserve being re-signed by the Pens with our current situation, obviously, but he was a crucial part of us winning the Cup.

Did he have a few bumps in the road that were frustrating? Yeah... because hew as asked to play top minutes and he's not a top dman anymore. But he's 100% a solid guy to put in your 6 spots because he can eat more minutes than your typical #5/6. He was overpaid in FA, but that's what happens with Cup winners.

People need to stop trashing the guy because while he did have his moments of suck, he actually was a key part of our defense during that run. Why people refuse to admit that is something I just cannot comprehend.

Good post. People here hate the Ron Hainsey, Rob Scuderi, Hal Gill types. You know, defensemen who help teams win Cups.

Apparently Markov isn't coming back to MTL. I wouldn't hate having him here.

Regarding 3C, I'm not against having an internal competition for it. If no one shines then JR can make a move during the season. Soderberg with retention is still my preferred 3C though.

No because of:



This.

Maatta-Letang
Dumo-Schultz
Cole-Hunwick
Rudwedel-Pouliot

Where is Markov supposed to fit in? Tell me why Markov at -whatever he will sign for- is a better option than Rudwedel.

Yeah, if we brought in Markov now we would have to move out 2 defensemen. Highly unlikely unless we need to move 2 D-men in order to secure the 3C we want (which I doubt).


Also, why are we discussing David Desharnais? He signed with the Rangers, or am I missing something?

 

[Shady Machine]

You don't think closer to the deadline we can grab a 3C for a pick? Really? Or if you wanted to try to go to LV right now and grab a guy like William Karlsson (if you want to go that route)? Or let's go crazy and say Toronto actually wants to move Bozak due to cap issues (they don't have to). They would want a pick + something cheap.

I think there are a ton of options out there.

Yes you can grab a 3C on an expiring contract for a pick, but it won't be cheap if the player is good. I thought you were referring to trading Kuhnhackl + pick for a 3C with term so my fault if I misinterpreted.

Karlsson is a fine option but I can't imagine Kuhn+2nd does that (I'm using a 2nd because I don't believe you are advocating moving a 1st for any random 3rd line center). Bozak is cool with me, but they aren't going to move him just to dump a contract. They would want a legit NHL dman in return, most likely.

I also believe we need a 3C before the deadline. I understand not panicking, but I also believe we need enough proven NHL centers to ice a playoff caliber team during the regular season.

 

[UnderratedBrooks44]

JR can't really do anything until Sheary's contract is sorted out. The only thing he could have done to address the 3C position at this point would have been to sign/trade for someone with full willingness to ship someone else out if we ended up suddenly close to or over the cap. He might even have one or two things lined up for when Sheary's cap number is settled.

 

[Shady Machine]

Also, why are we discussing David Desharnais? He signed with the Rangers, or am I missing something?

Pixies was suggesting that we SHOULD have signed DD rather than waiting on Cullen or whatever else might be available. I don't necessarily agree, but the point is fair when looking at the current roster and what might be available in the market.

The reality is that Crosby-Malkin-xxx-Rowney-Blueger is the worst center depth this team has had in the summer in over 10 years. There are exciting things on the wings, in goal, and on D, but the center position needs a 3rd line center, probably a better 4th line center, and maybe even more depth.

JR has a fair amount of work to do IMO between now and the deadline to solidify the center ice position for the playoffs. I personally believe Rowney on 4C is fine until the deadline, but that 3C spot needs filled before then.

 

[Shady Machine]

JR can't really do anything until Sheary's contract is sorted out. The only thing he could have done to address the 3C position at this point would have been to sign/trade for someone with full willingness to ship someone else out if we ended up suddenly close to or over the cap. He might even have one or two things lined up for when Sheary's cap number is settled.

JR could do whatever he wants. You can exceed the cap by 10% in the summer. The team has a good idea of what a Sheary deal would look like anyway, so I don't buy that. I'm sure having the arbitration settled helps, but to suggest he can't do anything is wrong.

 

[mpp9]

Kuhn is closer to waiver wire material than having value in a trade.

 

[Ogrezilla]

JR could do whatever he wants. You can exceed the cap by 10% in the summer. The team has a good idea of what a Sheary deal would look like anyway, so I don't buy that. I'm sure having the arbitration settled helps, but to suggest he can't do anything is wrong.

but it could obviously change who we target. And it could potentially change who we want to trade, and how much trade value they have. Maatta is more tradeable with Dumo signed for 6 years instead of 2. Sheary might be who someone wants for the 3C we want, but they need to see his cap hit first. We might only want to trade Sheary if his cap hit is over a certain number. So yeah, we could make a trade regardless, but you have more information to make your decision with if you wait.

 

[Shady Machine]

Kuhn is closer to waiver wire material than having value in a trade.

Thank you