Salary Cap: Salary Cap Summer Part 3

[Shady Machine]

but it could obviously change who we target. And it could potentially change who we want to trade, and how much trade value they have. Maatta is more tradeable with Dumo signed for 6 years instead of 2. Sheary might be who someone wants for the 3C we want, but they need to see his cap hit first. We might only want to trade Sheary if his cap hit is over a certain number. So yeah, we could make a trade regardless, but you have more information to make your decision with if you wait.

Fair points for sure.

 

[billybudd]

Nick Spaling is a better player than Kuhnhackl and he's in Switzerland, last I checked.

I think it's cool that Kuhnhackl "made it" when nobody expected that he would and I don't have any massive beefs with him, but the cold, hard truth is that he "made it" as a warm body. Nobody's giving you anything to get him or targeting him as return in a trade.

 

[WDYT]

If Crosby or Malkin went down, they'd likely be going on the trade market for someone to fill that hole anyway. No 3C they've had since Staal would have been an adequate replacement for them. That shouldn't even be a consideration when thinking about filling the 3C hole.

 

[SEALBound]

Also, why are we discussing David Desharnais? He signed with the Rangers, or am I missing something?

I was just going to post the exact same thing. NYR 1yr $1mil. At that price and term, I doubt he's available unless he goes on waivers. I mean, if your NYR, why would you help out a division rival?

JR can't really do anything until Sheary's contract is sorted out. The only thing he could have done to address the 3C position at this point would have been to sign/trade for someone with full willingness to ship someone else out if we ended up suddenly close to or over the cap. He might even have one or two things lined up for when Sheary's cap number is settled.

Agreed. I think Cullen's decision plays a role too. Once arbitration is all done I think there will be some moves. With Detroit at the very, very least.

Kuhn is closer to waiver wire material than having value in a trade.

I disagree with that. He was a very serviceable 4th liner for us. Hell of a PK'er too. Plays with physicality. I'd have no issues with him on our 4th at any point.

Nick Spaling is a better player than Kuhnhackl and he's in Switzerland, last I checked.

I think it's cool that Kuhnhackl "made it" when nobody expected that he would and I don't have any massive beefs with him, but the reality is that he "made it" as a warm body. Nobody's giving you anything to get him or targeting him as return in a trade.

I would take Kuhnhackl 10 times out of 10 over Spaling. Spaling is okay at everything and good at nothing. Most vanilla player there is. Kuhnhackl can at least play a physical brand of hockey and PK. Sorry, don't agree with either of you on Kuhnhackl.

 

[Shady Machine]

Nick Spaling is a better player than Kuhnhackl and he's in Switzerland, last I checked.

I think it's cool that Kuhnhackl "made it" when nobody expected that he would and I don't have any massive beefs with him, but the cold, hard truth is that he "made it" as a warm body. Nobody's giving you anything to get him or targeting him as return in a trade.

Thank you as well. I was super confused when I saw "acquire 3rd line center with pick + Kuhnhackl".

 

[Shady Machine]

If Crosby or Malkin went down, they'd likely be going on the trade market for someone to fill that hole anyway. No 3C they've had since Staal would have been an adequate replacement for them. That shouldn't even be a consideration when thinking about filling the 3C hole.

We've already seen Malkin out several times and they didn't go to the trade market. I'm not talking about a season ending injury here, but a nagging 15 game one. At least the last few years you had Bones and Cullen that could slide up and Fehr to slide over. We don't have that right now. Again, that will change, but let's just be honest about where the team is at with it's center depth at the moment.

 

[Shady Machine]

I disagree with that. He was a very serviceable 4th liner for us. Hell of a PK'er too. Plays with physicality. I'd have no issues with him on our 4th at any point.

I would take Kuhnhackl 10 times out of 10 over Spaling. Spaling is okay at everything and good at nothing. Most vanilla player there is. Kuhnhackl can at least play a physical brand of hockey and PK. Sorry, don't agree with either of you on Kuhnhackl.

Kuhnhackl is not physical. Spaling is a better player (or at least was at the time). The difference is cap hit. Kuhn at 600K is better than Spaling at 2.2MM or whatever he signed at. As soon as Kuhn wants more than 1MM, he's likely out of the NHL within a year or 2.

 

[Syrinx]

I've taken a break for a bit and am confused. What happened to Sheary's arbitration date? He was scheduled for August 4 but is off the list now. Still listed as an RFA with no salary on the cap sites.

(Please don't make me read through >900 posts to try to figure it out )

 

[davemess]

I've taken a break for a bit and am confused. What happened to Sheary's arbitration date? He was scheduled for August 4 but is off the list now. Still listed as an RFA with no salary on the cap sites.

Not aware of anything happening to it to be honest. Haven't seen anything to say its been moved/cancelled etc.

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

No I don't think I would if the cap space was prohibitive. Of course, if they hadn't traded for Reaves, they'd have the money for DD and Cullen (well and they'd have Sunny around still).

I just think that center depth is extremely important and we are thinner right now (yes it's July) than we have been in years. We had Sutter around before the Bonino trade and Fehr signing, we had Staal before that. This is the first offseason since I can remember with this thin of center depth. I can be patient, but I would say I'm a tad concerned.

There's no way we'd be signing both Desharnais and Cullen for the 4C role. It's one or the other.

Center depth is important, which is why we're waiting on the best 4C available instead of blowing our wad on a player ill-suited to the 4C role on a number of fronts just because he's there and we're impatient.

JR's been transparent his whole time here, and said he has a list of centers he wants and some fallback options if those don't come through, all of which I'm sure are better than a tiny one-dimensional center with 14 points in 49 games last year. I'm not sure where this lack of faith in our management team is coming from, but people really ought to take some time to reflect if they're lamenting missing out on the likes of Desharnais, who brings so little to the table.

How bad do people think our fallback options are? Spin a wheel of random 4th line centers in the league and you'll probably land on a better 4C than DD.

 

[AjaxTelamon]

JR could do whatever he wants. You can exceed the cap by 10% in the summer. The team has a good idea of what a Sheary deal would look like anyway, so I don't buy that. I'm sure having the arbitration settled helps, but to suggest he can't do anything is wrong.

Based on JR saying he has deals on the table he can pull right now (and common sense) corroborates this. I tend to think Vegas would be willing to do a trade for one of their centers for premium futures, so what we probably have on deck is something around our 1st or 2nd round picks for one of their centers, and JR is loathe to do that.

Also, I think Cullen is coming back. Feels great during his workouts, no big injuries last year, chance for a threepeat, and three kids like ice picks in his ear all day.

 

[mpp9]

Kuhn's biggest contribution was being a distant third best player on a line with Cullen and Rust a year ago. He's a 13th/14th forward here especially with Rowney ahead of him now and potentially Archibald.

 

[SCPens]

We've already seen Malkin out several times and they didn't go to the trade market. I'm not talking about a season ending injury here, but a nagging 15 game one. At least the last few years you had Bones and Cullen that could slide up and Fehr to slide over. We don't have that right now. Again, that will change, but let's just be honest about where the team is at with it's center depth at the moment.

Why so everyone can continue to lament about something that Jimmy's going to resolve when the time is right? I guess GM'ing a team to 2 cups in the last 2 years doesn't count for much around here...

 

[UnrealMachine]

Kuhnhackl didn't take the big step forward that many of us were hoping for last season, but he was far from a warm body. He are some of his 5on5 numbers compared to Bonino:

P/60: 1.44 vs 1.43
GA/60: 1.68 vs 2.18 (led team)
GF%: 57.6 vs 46.2
DZoneFO%: 47.3 vs 36.7 (led team)

He didn't put up a lot of points because he was primarily used as a defensive/checking forward. On a team as offensively heavy as the Pens, that's a much needed commodity.

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

I like Kuhn. He may be a 13th/14th forward for us at this point, but that's mostly because we're so deep on the wing right now. He's a smart, hard-working player who can produce at around a 25 point pace and block shots for days.

That's pretty good for a 4th line sophomore.

 

[Jacob]

I like Kuhn. He may be a 13th/14th forward for us at this point, but that's mostly because we're so deep on the wing right now. He's a smart, hard-working player who can produce at around a 25 point pace and block shots for days.

And absolutely dirt cheap.

Even if he's 14 on the depth chart, that'll come in handy. For my money he's better than Archibald right now.

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

And absolutely dirt cheap.

Even if he's 14 on the depth chart, that'll come in handy. For my money he's better than Archibald right now.

For sure.

He and Archibald have very different strengths so it's hard to compare, but Kuhn might get the edge from me just because he's a more known commodity. Either way, great to have both.

 

[ZeroPucksGiven]

Kuhnhackl didn't take the big step forward that many of us were hoping for last season, but he was far from a warm body. He are some of his 5on5 numbers compared to Bonino:

P/60: 1.44 vs 1.43
GA/60: 1.68 vs 2.18 (led team)
GF%: 57.6 vs 46.2
DZoneFO%: 47.3 vs 36.7 (led team)

He didn't put up a lot of points because he was primarily used as a defensive/checking forward. On a team as offensively heavy as the Pens, that's a much needed commodity.

I don't have any issues with Kuhn...seems like a nice try hard guy. But I think Archibald is the new Kuhn with what he provides. Faster, better finisher,

 

[mpp9]

The context was his value in a trade for a 3C. I don't disagree that having him as a spare forward is great. Especially as a contrast to what Archibald brings. But he's not going to be a piece that sways a team to send us a good 3C.

 

[SCPens]

Kuhn's biggest contribution was being a distant third best player on a line with Cullen and Rust a year ago. He's a 13th/14th forward here especially with Rowney ahead of him now and potentially Archibald.

I can't agree with your opinion on Kuhn. This team has tremendous depth on the wings. He's a strong PK'er who fearlessly blocks shots, he's strong on the forecheck and along the boards, he's a faster skater than many around here will acknowledge, and he scores timely and clutch goals (not many mind you, but important goals none the less). If it wasn't for all of the bottom 6 options on this club he'd be getting a regular shift and contributing in some fashion.

 

[Dr Frasier Crane]

Good post. People here hate the Ron Hainsey, Rob Scuderi, Hal Gill types. You know, defensemen who help teams win Cups.

People hate Ron Hainsey because he was awful last year by most metrics - including the eye test. Just because someone plays important minutes doesn't mean they were valuable minutes.

He didn't help us win a cup anymore than a replacement-level player would have.

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[Gurglesons]

Why so everyone can continue to lament about something that Jimmy's going to resolve when the time is right? I guess GM'ing a team to 2 cups in the last 2 years doesn't count for much around here...

It is a new season with a new roster. Winning two cups in the last two years doesn't make us win a cup this year and resting on those laurels is what has been done this off season. Rutherford says a lot of things. He has had a lot of luck the last two years in pretty much having every trade work out.

Relying on filling our center depth through trade after July or having a 41 year old resign is not proactive and as Shady has said it has been a long time since we've made it this far into an off season with no legitimate 3C. If Cullen walks, we are basically implying that we can fill Cullen and Bonino's contributions with a 3C that we don't have yet and Rowney.

That's a huge, concerning hole. You can probably plug it with a pending UFA. But my point is that if one of Malkin or Crosby goes down and our bottom six depth is a player like Karlsson and a player like Rowney. There is a legitimate chance we could miss the playoffs. It'd be akin to having what we did in 2011 at the later part of the season.

 

[Peat]

The context was his value in a trade for a 3C. I don't disagree that having him as a spare forward is great. Especially as a contrast to what Archibald brings. But he's not going to be a piece that sways a team to send us a good 3C.

Yup.

Kuhnhackl is a good 4th line winger. Those don't have great trade value.

 

[UnderratedBrooks44]

JR could do whatever he wants. You can exceed the cap by 10% in the summer. The team has a good idea of what a Sheary deal would look like anyway, so I don't buy that. I'm sure having the arbitration settled helps, but to suggest he can't do anything is wrong.

Yeah they can exceed the cap momentarily but that doesn't change anything. Having an idea what Sheary will get doesn't help anything. If you're a million dollars off you might be trading someone you don't want to trade. That extra million you weren't expecting Sheary to get could put you within $1 million of the cap, right up against it, or over it. All those scenarios mean you're having to trade a different player based on salary. There's too many variables to do something definitive right now.

EDIT: Late to the party.

Based on JR saying he has deals on the table he can pull right now (and common sense) corroborates this. I tend to think Vegas would be willing to do a trade for one of their centers for premium futures, so what we probably have on deck is something around our 1st or 2nd round picks for one of their centers, and JR is loathe to do that.

Also, I think Cullen is coming back. Feels great during his workouts, no big injuries last year, chance for a threepeat, and three kids like ice picks in his ear all day.

Just because JR is often candid doesn't mean he's literally telling the truth 100% of the time. People put way too much emphasis on what JR tells the media IMO. Also I feel like if Vegas was dealing more players they would've done so already. Might be wrong but that's just me. All the centers they have right now are in their mid-20s and could still help out in a few years if and when the team gets good.

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

It is a new season with a new roster. Winning two cups in the last two years doesn't make us win a cup this year and resting on those laurels is what has been done this off season. Rutherford says a lot of things. He has had a lot of luck the last two years in pretty much having every trade work out.

Is that what it's called when a GM is patient waiting for the right deal rather than acquiring any old player months before he has to?

Relying on filling our center depth through trade after July or having a 41 year old resign is not proactive and as Shady has said it has been a long time since we've made it this far into an off season with no legitimate 3C. If Cullen walks, we are basically implying that we can fill Cullen and Bonino's contributions with a 3C that we don't have yet and Rowney.

I guess waiting for a 40 year old to re-sign last year wasn't "proactive" either. It sure was better than any possible alternative though.

And FYI, Desharnais wouldn't fill in for Bonino or Cullen either, what with not being able to play a lick of defense on top of his poor production last year.