Salary Cap: Salary Cap + Roster Building | Every time I refresh, I panic.

[Empoleon8771]

I don't remember that at all. I remember him having 1 shift with Malkin, showing the kind of thing that made you drool for more and then as usual, benched for the rest of the 3rd period.

Yeah he definitely hasn't played much with Malkin, I think he has had like 2 shifts with Malkin this year. But he has played with Crosby sparingly on the year, he has played about the same amount with Crosby as he has played with Brassard. Again, it hasn't been much, but he has had a few shifts.

I just find it asinine for people to be ripping on Sheary, who could actually score goals, when the Penguins haven't gotten **** in terms of depth scoring on the year. Sheary has as many goals as the Penguins entire bottom-6 combined, yet they somehow don't miss him? I'm sorry, losing 9 out of 10 with everyone beyond Crosby and Malkin being incapable of scoring really paints a different picture than "we don't miss a player who could actually score goals". Not only that, but Sheary also brought speed, which is another area this team lacks in.

 

[Honour Over Glory]

Right. Again... I don't want them to do it. I'd much rather they actually start like, I dunno... making some good decisions from behind the bench. I'm just saying don't be shocked. Like Peat pointed out, it would line up with some things the team is saying. And Guentzel has some value along with a big raise coming.

In the end I think they understand they need to hold on to SOMETHING for the future. But then again I often wonder how much thought, if any, the team actually gives to that. The future, I mean.

They keep trading away 1sts and guys like Guentzel, then they better pray they can keep trading for young talent and signing free ones. Crosby is 31, Malkin is 32...Guentzel is supposed to be in that next core, so if they move him, it's like...now what? The next guy they draft that develops well, he'd be ready when Sid and Geno are closer to 33 and 34ish (maybe, if we're lucky) and that might be guys like Hallander, Bjorkqvist, Addison, etc. If we're lucky.

It's a super slippery slope for a team that develops and drafts talent but then uses call ups like Grant, Wilson, and ZAR over the drafted talent that is actually worthy of a call up and other FA guys that the team has put time into.

 

[Mr Jiggyfly]

I like how you ignored Wilson, lol...

I, too, like to pretend he doesn't exist.

I feel like I’m insulting people’s intelligence by pointing out that he sucked.

I also hate to rip on guys if I don’t have to, but when the org obsesses over guys with little skill that skate like ass such as Adams, Glass, Kuhn, Rowney and now ZAR, I reach my breaking point.

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

They just have an obsession with ZAR and I’ve been saying since last year he is basically AHL quality. It’s baffiling.

Yes but... he SCORED last game, Jiggy! Nevermind they gave the guy enough rope to circle the globe 10 times... he SCORED.

And he's a depth player! And the depth lines can't score! But he scored! We can't NOT play him the rest of the year in increasingly asinine positions! Been a bit since they've stapled him to Malkin's hip for a whole game, ya know.

Incoming!

 

[Honour Over Glory]

Yeah he definitely hasn't played much with Malkin, I think he has had like 2 shifts with Malkin this year. But he has played with Crosby sparingly on the year, he has played about the same amount with Crosby as he has played with Brassard. Again, it hasn't been much, but he has had a few shifts.

I just find it asinine for people to be ripping on Sheary, who could actually score goals, when the Penguins haven't gotten **** in terms of depth scoring on the year. Sheary has as many goals as the Penguins entire bottom-6 combined, yet they somehow don't miss him? I'm sorry, losing 9 out of 10 with everyone beyond Crosby and Malkin being incapable of scoring really paints a different picture than "we don't miss a player who could actually score goals". Not only that, but Sheary also brought speed, which is another area this team lacks in.

I miss Sheary.

Also, even guys like Rust haven't scored much with Crosby and Brassard spent a decent amount with Sid and had 1 goal. So it's like, people saying Sprong "had his chances and failed" well...so did Brassard and Rust, but they keep getting chances. Sprong actually looks better with Malkin and yet that isn't explored much if at all. For a team struggling at every facet of the game, you would hope for more creativity, more chances, anything that sparks something and yet, it's the same tried and true things, hoping it just "snaps" into place.

 

[Peat]

I mean... I don't even know how much I disagree with you. I know I shouldn't be so up and down but we're talking about a guy who was basically on my untouchable list at the top of this season. And you're right that in a vacuum his numbers are OK. But I just think this losing streak has guys up in the FO really questioning both the fit and chemistry of this forward group which frankly has some validity. There are no good "home base" or "go-to" options on this team up front. Even Guentzel and Crosby have looked ineffective this season and honestly it's mostly on Jake. His work rate just doesn't seem good, to me. Plus JR is trigger happy, Guentzel is on an expiring contract and likely looking at a big raise and might be one of the few guys with some value even with that whole expiring contract thing I just mentioned.

Then of course there is the fact that JR himself has made a trainwreck nightmare ****show out of this defense and how heavily that plays into how the forwards look.

I dunno. It's a mess, man.

This is the big one. Like, if he was doing everything and things just weren't going, I'd understand. But if he wants to half-ass it a little, spend less time in the corners and more time by the net hoping it comes his way? That creates an issue. If the team wants to preach accountability, that's gonna come round to him sooner or later.

Do I want him gone? Don't think so. I'm not particularly down on his ability compared to where I was last season. Am I profoundly nervous about the idea of trading him for the following reason -

I just wanna point out that even with the Pens' cruddy start and Guentzel being moved around the line-up, he's still on pace for 27 goals and 54 points (both career highs), and 4th among our forwards in scoring.

Yes, yes I am.

Can I see Guentzel being on the trade block given everything that's been said? Yes.

Is it a completely unworkable idea to put him there? ... I don't think so. Think.

 

[Empoleon8771]

Guentzel's problem isn't that he's not producing. Guentzel's problem is that he's offering nothing outside of his production, because he's giving half effort on the year. Guentzel is a guy that needs to be playing like Brad Marchand, he needs to be a physical pest that is also solid defensively. He's not doing that at all right now. Production be damned, he's not carrying his weight this year. If we wanted a guy that would just provide ~50 points of production and nothing else, I would have said they should trade for Ryan Spooner.

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

They keep trading away 1sts and guys like Guentzel, then they better pray they can keep trading for young talent and signing free ones. Crosby is 31, Malkin is 32...Guentzel is supposed to be in that next core, so if they move him, it's like...now what? The next guy they draft that develops well, he'd be ready when Sid and Geno are closer to 33 and 34ish (maybe, if we're lucky) and that might be guys like Hallander, Bjorkqvist, Addison, etc. If we're lucky.

It's a super slippery slope for a team that develops and drafts talent but then uses call ups like Grant, Wilson, and ZAR over the drafted talent that is actually worthy of a call up and other FA guys that the team has put time into.

I hear ya man. I just said yesterday that, as much as I know people around here hate to hear it for some reason... this team really, really needs to consider holding on to it's first round picks here and there. I get the flipside of that... you don't waste your window. But I sincerely believe you can have it both ways. You get everyone on the same page and do a good job drafting and developing guys while elevating them when appropriate and you can have a constant pipeline from the lower leagues all the way up to your NHL team. But you need some first rounders here and there to keep your pool of prospects viable.

Of course right now with Sullivan doing his best Disco impression... that's all one big laughable fantasyland scenario.

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

Context doesn't help you put pucks in the back of the net. And you're really going to bring up that point when you keep ignoring that Sprong has played with Crosby for a lot of his last 2 years?

Compare players who've had even remotely similar circumstances. Sheary would be lucky to have Sprong's production this year if they were used similarly. Hell, Sheary's production last year playing twice the TOI, mostly beside Crosby, is barely better than Sprong's this year.

On Brassard, he played a lot with Crosby this year and has played regularly with Kessel too. Sprong has had 33% of his ice time in the last 2 years with Crosby.

I like how Sheary's 52.5% ice time with Crosby last year is "regularly playing with superstar centers", yet no mention of how Sprong has 33% of his ice time with Crosby in the last 2 years.

So now you're resorting to mixing years? We're talking about this year. As has been pointed out countless times, last year Sprong did every bit as well as Sheary. As a 20 year old. Without a year to establish chemistry.

Pining for Sprong has to be the dumbest hill to die on. He's a nothing player.

See? I can say stupid things too. Like come on WC, this is just pure garbage. You're letting your absurd bias make completely asinine posts and arguments.

The whole reason to part with a one-dimensional winger like Sheary was that we could have a rookie come in and produce his numbers easily under similar circumstances. Sprong can, and has been producing as well as anyone in the league who's been used like he has. But the coach has his head up his ass, so here we are, wondering where we can find offense to replace frickin Sheary when we don't look an inch in front of our faces.

 

[Honour Over Glory]

Guentzel's problem isn't that he's not producing. Guentzel's problem is that he's offering nothing outside of his production, because he's giving half effort on the year. Guentzel is a guy that needs to be playing like Brad Marchand, he needs to be a physical pest that is also solid defensively. He's not doing that at all right now. Production be damned, he's not carrying his weight this year. If we wanted a guy that would just provide ~50 points of production and nothing else, I would have said they should trade for Ryan Spooner.

I don't think Jake will ever be that Marchand type of guy. For one, the guy isn't that strong like Brad, so he can't even play that pest style and he did at least try to, but this year he just looks about as lazy as the rest that are playing checked out.

Didn't expect that from the kid.

 

[Old Gregg]

I miss Sheary.

Also, even guys like Rust haven't scored much with Crosby and Brassard spent a decent amount with Sid and had 1 goal. So it's like, people saying Sprong "had his chances and failed" well...so did Brassard and Rust, but they keep getting chances. Sprong actually looks better with Malkin and yet that isn't explored much if at all. For a team struggling at every facet of the game, you would hope for more creativity, more chances, anything that sparks something and yet, it's the same tried and true things, hoping it just "snaps" into place.

I don't get why they won't try Malkin Sprong for a stretch of 5-10 games and just see what happens. Can't get worse than how they are already playing.
When Crosby's back maybe go with something like this

Guentzal Crosby Kessel/Hornqvist
Simon Malkin Sprong
Pearson Brassard Hornqvist/Kessel
Cullen Sheahan Rust (I know they won't bring any young guys up like TB etc)

 

[Mr Jiggyfly]

Yes but... he SCORED last game, Jiggy! Nevermind they gave the guy enough rope to circle the globe 10 times... he SCORED.

And he's a depth player! And the depth lines can't score! But he scored! We can't NOT play him the rest of the year in increasingly asinine positions! Been a bit since they've stapled him to Malkin's hip for a whole game, ya know.

Incoming!

I’ve never been more irritated when the Pens scored. It was a meaningless, fluke goal that just bought him extra time to plod around the ice doing nothing.

I just don’t get it man. How do guys who do this for a living watch Wilson, ZAR and Grant, see their lack of skating (Grant gets around ok I guess) and skill... then tell themselves these are the callups they need to add to a lineup with a bunch of guys already ghosting it?

If these three can’t even create for themselves, let alone others... how do you tell yourself they will jumpstart the team?

I’m like so totally shocked it like hasn’t like, worked out! Like whoa!

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

I don't think Jake will ever be that Marchand type of guy. For one, the guy isn't that strong like Brad, so he can't even play that pest style and he did at least try to, but this year he just looks about as lazy as the rest that are playing checked out.

Didn't expect that from the kid.

For real. Rust, too.

If you look at the "future" players on this team at this point in time... Rust, Guentzel, Murray, Maatta and Simon... it paints an awfully grim picture. Simon is by far and away the most impressive of that group ATM. And while I've always liked Simon that's... really unfortunate.

 

[Honour Over Glory]

A guy like Nichushkin still intrigues me.

 

[Empoleon8771]

Compare players who've had even remotely similar circumstances. Sheary would be lucky to have Sprong's production this year if they were used similarly. Hell, Sheary's production last year playing twice the TOI, mostly beside Crosby, is barely better than Sprong's this year.

Oh, we're just making baseless statements now? Here, I'll make one too, Sheary would have 15 goals already on the year if he was still with the Penguins. Sprong would continue to have 0 goals had he played with Crosby all season. Yay for saying baseless things.

I like how you're also ignoring that Sheary was used in a similar role to Crosby in 2015-2016, and yet he still put up 7 goals in 44 games while averaging 9:45 a night. That kinda shoots your theory of "Sheary would be lucky to have Sprong's production" in the head. Why don't you wait for Sprong to score his first goal this year before making such baseless statements?

So now you're resorting to mixing years? We're talking about this year. As has been pointed out countless times, last year Sprong did every bit as well as Sheary. As a 20 year old. Without a year to establish chemistry.

Well you seem hell-bent on only focusing on last year when it comes to Sheary. And yes, scoring 2 goals in 8 games is "every bit" as good as Sheary actually putting up 18 goals over a full season. Yep, someone doing something over an absurdly small sample size is totally just as good as doing it over a huge sample size.

The whole reason to part with a one-dimensional winger like Sheary was that we could have a rookie come in and produce his numbers easily under similar circumstances. Sprong can, and has been producing as well as anyone in the league who's been used like he has. But the coach has his head up his ass, so here we are, wondering where we can find offense to replace frickin Sheary when we don't look an inch in front of our faces.

Wow, it's just like Sheary did the same exact thing in 2015-2016, so to be pretending that Sheary sucks and is a nothing player is asininely stupid. Pick one: either Sheary's a good player or Sprong is a nothing player.

Just for more evidence to that, Sheary's ES points/60 in 2015-2016 was 1.52 ES points/60 while playing 9:45 a night regularly on the 4th line. Sprong this year is at 1.56 ES points/60.

 

[Peat]

Guentzel's problem isn't that he's not producing. Guentzel's problem is that he's offering nothing outside of his production, because he's giving half effort on the year. Guentzel is a guy that needs to be playing like Brad Marchand, he needs to be a physical pest that is also solid defensively. He's not doing that at all right now. Production be damned, he's not carrying his weight this year. If we wanted a guy that would just provide ~50 points of production and nothing else, I would have said they should trade for Ryan Spooner.

Okay that's just mean.

Right. Again... I don't want them to do it. I'd much rather they actually start like, I dunno... making some good decisions from behind the bench. I'm just saying don't be shocked. Like Peat pointed out, it would line up with some things the team is saying. And Guentzel has some value along with a big raise coming.

In the end I think they understand they need to hold on to SOMETHING for the future. But then again I often wonder how much thought, if any, the team actually gives to that. The future, I mean.

I don't think they gave Rutherford another 3 years because they're thinking all that hard about the future.

That said... I don't think they should either. The shape of the future changes fast. Three years ago the future of our franchise was guys like Maatta, Pouliot and Sprong. There'd have been an argument if you said Murray would be flat out a better NHL goaltender than Jarry... and in those three years, we've gone from no argument to maybe just maybe the argument reappearing. Everyone hates Maatta, Pouliot sucks, I refuse to talk about Sprong, and it turns out we should have been talking about Guentzel, Rust and Sheary. Although he rose and fell in those three years too. Yeah, adding some most 1sts would improve the odds, but things happen so quick you never know when the day to improve our odds comes. Maybe we trade Guentzel, scream about our future, but keep going bad and end up with a lottery pick and an extra 1st for Brassard and the world changes.

Sure, there's got to be something. But the exact identity of that something will be quicksilver until the day arrives.

And frankly, whatever we do or did, the next core will be insufficient for anything more than hopes of being the next Minnesota because you're not finding a cup winning core in the late 1st and there on. For me, that's not enough to be too bothered about.

 

[Honour Over Glory]

I don't get why they won't try Malkin Sprong for a stretch of 5-10 games and just see what happens. Can't get worse than how they are already playing.
When Crosby's back maybe go with something like this

Guentzal Crosby Kessel/Hornqvist
Simon Malkin Sprong
Pearson Brassard Hornqvist/Kessel
Cullen Sheahan Rust (I know they won't bring any young guys up like TB etc)

That requires creativity and taking an actual risk.

Something this coaching staff seems averse to.

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

I’ve never been more irritated when the Pens scored. It was a meaningless, fluke goal that just bought him extra time to plod around the ice doing nothing.

I just don’t get it man. How do guys who do this for a living watch Wilson, ZAR and Grant, see their lack of skating (Grant gets around ok I guess) and skill... then tell themselves these are the callups they need to add to a lineup with a bunch of guys already ghosting it?

If these three can’t even create for themselves, let alone others... how do you tell yourself they will jumpstart the team?

I’m like so totally shocked it like hasn’t like, worked out! Like whoa!

I wish I had the answer, man. It is absolutely and completely baffling. Like... I'm not even going to talk about Sprong. Whatever... too frustrating. Already been over it too much. But then you look down on the farm and not only are there so many better options... they are seemingly "Sullivan type" players available for promotion! And we're calling up the guys you mentioned?!? Even based on what we all thought we knew about Sullivan it makes no sense.

I blame Recchi.

I'm joking but, I mean... I dunno.

 

[NMK11]

I don't think Jake will ever be that Marchand type of guy. For one, the guy isn't that strong like Brad, so he can't even play that pest style and he did at least try to, but this year he just looks about as lazy as the rest that are playing checked out.

Didn't expect that from the kid.

He definitely seems to have the pest style come out at times, has never seemed shy about getting in people's faces or talking. Yeah, he could use a few pounds to make that more effective, but only if it didn't affect his play style when he's actually going.

I'm fine with players on this team not going 110% every game when the goal is cup or bust, we saw a lot of that last year. But that stops becoming acceptable when you fall out of the playoff race, let alone being the second worst team in the league.

 

[EightyOne]

..



I’m sure he has, but I can tell you for sure that he was trying to move Sprong and apparently he hasn’t yet.

So if he’s not even moving a guy his coach really wants gone, what’s that tell you about the market?

I don't tend to call people out, but, is there a source that conclusively said that?

I don't get why they won't try Malkin Sprong for a stretch of 5-10 games...

Dude. I'd be cool with 5-10 shifts!!!

 

[Empoleon8771]

Okay that's just mean.

Ryan Spooner from 2014-2018 had 147 points in 246 games, which is a pace of 49 points per 82 games. It's really not a ridiculous claim to make, you can get 50 point wingers somewhat easily. Those guys may just be really bad at hockey outside of their production, just like Sam Gagner.

 

[Mr Jiggyfly]

I wish I had the answer, man. It is absolutely and completely baffling. Like... I'm not even going to talk about Sprong. Whatever... too frustrating. Already been over it too much. But then you look down on the farm and not only are there so many better options... they are seemingly "Sullivan type" players available for promotion! And we're calling up the guys you mentioned?!? Even based on what we all thought we knew about Sullivan it makes no sense.

I blame Recchi.

I'm joking but, I mean... I dunno.

Ya, I could see if they had a bunch of those rotten Sprong types down there, but these guys are all hard working, responsible players that Sullivan should love.

I don't tend to call people out, but, is there a source that conclusively said that?

I already said where I get my info. My daughter is coached by some well known people with direct ties to the Pens.

I have zero reason to doubt them not only based on who they are, but because everything they have told me has been bang on. I hear different interesting things from them, but the Sprong stuff is the only issues I’ve directly asked about. I don’t like to keep digging on stuff though.

They told me last December Sullivan doesn’t like Sprong and I passed that info along to the board because I was told it wasn’t a big secret. I was then recently told that Sprong was being aggressively shopped.

Him being back in the lineup I can only assume means JR couldn’t find a taker.

 

[Randy Butternubs]

Ooooh yeah, I remember why I had these threads blocked...

 

[EightyOne]

Following @OGBobbyFarnham 's WBS reports, I think there is actually a decent amount of interesting talent in that team.

I'm certain the bottom six can be replaced by them tonight and look better than the big pens currently.

 

[Empoleon8771]

The encouraging thing here? The impression I'm getting from these line combinations is that Crosby's line is going to be Simon-Crosby-Sprong when Sid gets back, baring any future changes. It could also be ZAR-Crosby-Rust, but I doubt that based on them using Grant with Simon and Sprong. Grant is definitely not in the lineup when everyone is healthy.