Salary Cap: Salary Cap + Roster Building (Cap Details in First Post) | Closed

[Empoleon8771]

well i dont know... how about keeping the ones you do draft?

Because you don't have enough roster spots to keep all of those guys. It's why Archibald was cast away last year when only getting 3 games in 3 months. It's why Wilson was moved in the Sheahan trade. It's why Sprong was traded for Pettersson. It's why they let Kuhnhackl walk as a free agent. They just don't have the spots for all of these guys.

 

[The Old Master]

Because you don't have enough roster spots to keep all of those guys. It's why Archibald was cast away last year when only getting 3 games in 3 months. It's why Wilson was moved in the Sheahan trade. It's why Sprong was traded for Pettersson. It's why they let Kuhnhackl walk as a free agent. They just don't have the spots for all of these guys.

so we don't need cheep, young, speedy guys. we want lots of slow, expensive, old goats. glad that is cleared up.

 

[Empoleon8771]

so we don't need cheep, young, speedy guys. we want lots of slow, expensive, old goats. glad that is cleared up.

The Penguins have exactly 0 slow, expensive and old goats. And nice strawman, where did I ever say the Penguins didn't need cheap, young and fast guys?

 

[Tasty Biscuits]

There's a difference between saying a guy is playing well because he's a PKer and the PK has done fantastically, and saying that the PK is great because of one guy. I thought that would be fairly obvious.

Do you think Grant is a net positive or negative on the PK? If the answer is positive, and you then use the team% to back that up as proof, then yeah, you're saying he plays an important role in the success of the unit. If you want to point to other evidence of his good PKing that doesn't rely on the team number, I am all for that, except nobody has time to dig up and watch tape that we've all already seen. He's fine on the PK. He doesn't do anything that can't be replaced by numerous other players. Again, this is the Adams argument of, "You have to dress him for PKing, he gets big minutes on a unit with great numbers" all over again.

 

[Tasty Biscuits]

The Penguins have exactly 0 slow, expensive and old goats.

This is definitely true. However, our goats are all super-cheap, so they don't even have the "well, we're paying him so I guess we should play him" factor that half our D has going for them. So there's really no excuse to trot out the same replaceable players over and over again. It's no surprise the team has gotten back into mediocre .500 territory recently since the bottom-6 has finally started putting points up on the board. Would've been nice to have that for more of the season. We'll see if it lasts.

 

[Empoleon8771]

Do you think Grant is a net positive or negative on the PK? If the answer is positive, and you then use the team% to back that up as proof, then yeah, you're saying he plays an important role in the success of the unit. If you want to point to other evidence of his good PKing that doesn't rely on the team number, I am all for that, except nobody has time to dig up and watch tape that we've all already seen. He's fine on the PK. He doesn't do anything that can't be replaced by numerous other players. Again, this is the Adams argument of, "You have to dress him for PKing, he gets big minutes on a unit with great numbers" all over again.

That's not an argument against him doing well on the PK. If the PK isn't getting scored on, him and the rest of the PKers are doing their jobs. Just because other players could potentially do it to doesn't take away from the actual PKers doing their jobs. This isn't the "bulletproof Glass" or Adams argument and the comparison is just as wrong now as it was when you first made it, you're trying to morph this into something it's not. Glass and Adams deserved credit for the PK being good with them, since they were the PKers, but that doesn't mean they should be in the lineup. Grant has more things beyond his PKing that makes him deserving of a lineup spot, Adams and Glass offered borderline nothing else.

Compare Grant to Fehr, who is an actual comparable for him. Hell, even comparing him to Goc works. The argument here is that Grant deserves credit for the PK being good since he PKs, not that he should be in the lineup because he PKs and the PK is good.

 

[Ugene Magic]

well i dont know... how about keeping the ones you do draft?

That is hit or miss considering where they draft at consistently. They have kept guys, and guys have been moved out after they have shown not enough. You can't keep them all. Especially if you're deep in any particular position.

They have Rust, Maatta, Simon, Guentzel and more they traded off.

I don't know if you can constantly keep that up. Right now they're still contending.

 

[Empoleon8771]

This is definitely true. However, our goats are all super-cheap, so they don't even have the "well, we're paying him so I guess we should play him" factor that half our D has going for them. So there's really no excuse to trot out the same replaceable players over and over again. It's no surprise the team has gotten back into mediocre .500 territory recently since the bottom-6 has finally started putting points up on the board. Would've been nice to have that for more of the season. We'll see if it lasts.

To be honest, I don't get why people act like this forward group is old and slow, it's really not. Is it as fast as the Penguins should want? Definitely not, they should be trying to get faster at forward. However, it's really not that slow and they have 1 old player (Cullen). The speed issues are a problem with the defense, who actually has expensive and slow players on it. I've been saying this all along, the speed issue of this team would be fixed by getting strong skating puck movers on defense, not just adding more fast wingers. ZAR is the only bad skater they have at forward, everyone else is either fine or better.

I feel like the reason this happens is that people confuse "vanilla" with "bad" on here, and people usually use "old and slow" interchangeably with "bad". So people see the Penguins forwards being painfully vanilla, they think they're bad because they're not skilled and then call them "old and slow" because of it.

 

[AjaxTelamon]

I've seen people mention it and i'm a tad intrigued. Brass with Geno and Horny. It could be awesome. It could be brutal. I do not think there is anywhere in between. But it's enough to intrigue me.

Well, Brass needs the same kind of heavy sheltering Geno usually gets. I think the coaches are figuring out that you can't run Brass as your 3C, he's ill-suited to that job. I liked Kessel with Sheahan last year, and Pearson seems solid enough defensively to have a go at that LW spot.

But man, Kessel is not going to be happy about taking those D zone assignments, though I'd love to see that tried.

Jake Sid Simon
Brass Geno PH
Pearson Sheahan Kessel
Grant/ZAR Cullen Rust

Looks solid to me.

 

[Tasty Biscuits]

Just because other players could potentially do it to doesn't take away from the actual PKers doing their jobs.

But here's the thing, if others could do it (and, yes, they can), while also outperforming him in other areas or proving more useful to the team, be it through versatility or what have you, then it kind of renders the initial point moot (that being, I assume to prove he deserves a nightly sweater?0.

Compare Grant to Fehr, who is an actual comparable for him.

Pens Fehr, or their career body of work thus far? I'm not sure what people are pushing re: Fehr and Kuhn. Neither of them were a good fit with the Pens and shouldn't have been played as much as they were. Fehr was okay his first year here IIRC, but nothing to write home about.​

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

The thing with Fehr is, he had a goal scoring touch that these other vanilla guys he's being compared with didn't. So while none of them were consistently productive, Fehr's shot allowed him to be that threat to score at random moments that these other guys can't provide.

 

[Empoleon8771]

Pens Fehr, or their career body of work thus far? I'm not sure what people are pushing re: Fehr and Kuhn. Neither of them were a good fit with the Pens and shouldn't have been played as much as they were. Fehr was okay his first year here IIRC, but nothing to write home about.

Pens Fehr. That's exactly what I think about Grant, that's the point I'm making

People on here have been saying Grant sucks a lot, but he just hasn't been bad. He's just fine, he's not going to hurt you and can provide some versatility to your 4th line. He's another vanilla player in the mold of Fehr and Goc, he's a 4C that won't lose you games. I don't see anything wrong with that, people just think he sucks because of that though.

 

[Tasty Biscuits]

Definitely not, they should be trying to get faster at forward. However, it's really not that slow and they have 1 old player (Cullen). The speed issues are a problem with the defense, who actually has expensive and slow players on it. I've been saying this all along, the speed issue of this team would be fixed by getting strong skating puck movers on defense, not just adding more fast wingers. ZAR is the only bad skater they have at forward, everyone else is either fine or better.

I feel like the reason this happens is that people confuse "vanilla" with "bad" on here, and people usually use "old and slow" interchangeably with "bad". So people see the Penguins forwards being painfully vanilla, they think they're bad because they're not skilled and then call them "old and slow" because of it.

Yes indeed, the puck moves faster than anyone can skate. But as you say, they could still stand to have a bit more speed upfront, and most of the players in question are replaceable tweeners, and we have faster tweeners (maybe better -- who knows?) waiting in the wings. You don't find the next (good) Rust until you try.

 

[Tasty Biscuits]

People on here have been saying Grant sucks a lot, but he just hasn't been bad. He's just fine, he's not going to hurt you and can provide some versatility to your 4th line. He's another vanilla player in the mold of Fehr and Goc, he's a 4C that won't lose you games. I don't see anything wrong with that, people just think he sucks because of that though.

Well, I mean, he did suck for the majority of his time here. Only recently has he turned into serviceable. And yes, you don't want a 4C that will lose you games, but you also want players who have a positive impact more often than not, and that you can trust with more minutes. I don't think we should setting the bar at "neutral" and saying that's good enough. Pens moved on from Fehr and Goc pretty quickly because it's a waste of a sweater when the only redeeming quality of a player is "could be worse."

 

[Mr Jiggyfly]

And your entire roster doesn't need to be that and you need safe and vanilla guys like Grant to do the grunt work. Every cup winning team has guys like Fehr, Kuhnhackl, Kruger and Lewis on their team. Good teams don't play worse players just because they play a style that fans like to see better.

What makes it even more BS is that you're lumping Grant into this, who has played well this year. Wilson? I'd at least get, because he sucks and is the modern day Porter. But Grant? That's like complaining in 2016 that the Penguins were playing Fehr over Archibald (or 2017 with playing Rowney over Archibald). Speaking of Archibald, he's a dramatically better comparison for the guys that they have in WBS right now than Rust is.

People knocked Rust then like you are knocking the other guys in WBS. It’s no different, except that Rust is a known commodity now so it’s convenient to use hindsight and also pretend he was some major standout in WBS, which isn’t true. The reality is back then he was just a guy getting knocked around on here because he didn’t put up big numbers.

Watching him play though, you knew his speed and tenacious play was going to be way more beneficial to the team than safe players like Porter.

That’s why it’s silly to knock guys unless you actually see them play.

 

[KIRK]

They grabbed Reaves, which in theory made sense to protect, but you saw it almost immediately that the other teams copied us and that style of play was not going to fit the Pens. So JR fixed it, which was cool, but never really went all-in. Sully's motto was "Fast and fearless" as he ran 4 lines throughout the game. The team had jump because minutes were spread out.

Now we go into this year with Grant, Wilson, ZAR, etc. I'm not saying these guys are all terrible, but it just doesn't 100% fit the mold of what you created. And I respect other teams caught up. That's how a copy cat works. But keep going. You did fine. Go back to what worked.

 

[KIRK]

DK insider this morning had a piece on how the front office and coaches are coming to the realization that they need to get younger, faster players to win NOW because they’re not winning 50-50 puck battles and they think it’s not for lack of effort....lol...

Are they just seeing this now! What have they been watching?

Also said it’s not about WBS call ups but trading players for younger players and prospects...

Troll Level: 10

 

[KIRK]

I've seen people mention it and i'm a tad intrigued. Brass with Geno and Horny. It could be awesome. It could be brutal. I do not think there is anywhere in between. But it's enough to intrigue me.

Honestly, what the **** do they have to lose?

 

[MrBurghundy]

Yes indeed, the puck moves faster than anyone can skate. But as you say, they could still stand to have a bit more speed upfront, and most of the players in question are replaceable tweeners, and we have faster tweeners (maybe better -- who knows?) waiting in the wings. You don't find the next (good) Rust until you try.

The players need to be capable of actually completing simple passes for "the puck moves faster than anyone can skate" theory to apply to us.

 

[Tasty Biscuits]

The players need to be capable of actually completing simple passes for "the puck moves faster than anyone can skate" theory to apply to us.

I think everyone is in agreement regarding that.

 

[KIRK]

The players need to be capable of actually completing simple passes for "the puck moves faster than anyone can skate" theory to apply to us.

Do tell . . .

 

[Honour Over Glory]

The thing with Fehr is, he had a goal scoring touch that these other vanilla guys he's being compared with didn't. So while none of them were consistently productive, Fehr's shot allowed him to be that threat to score at random moments that these other guys can't provide.

Ah Fehr, the guy that was brought in to be a C and then was constantly used at wing so much that he just wanted the f*** out.

 

[Empoleon8771]

Rumor: - Parayko tops TSN Trade Bait board ahead of roster freeze

A potentially unpopular opinion: I'd 100% trade Guentzel for Parayko

 

[Turin]

Rumor: - Parayko tops TSN Trade Bait board ahead of roster freeze

A potentially unpopular opinion: I'd 100% trade Guentzel for Parayko

This team needs just one guy who can move and pass competently below Letang and more scoring among the depth. Trading Guentzel for an overkill D is somewhat insane unless Jake wants 7 a year.

 

[mpp9]

Rumor: - Parayko tops TSN Trade Bait board ahead of roster freeze

A potentially unpopular opinion: I'd 100% trade Guentzel for Parayko

It'd be nice to have a cannon point shot, but I'm not sold on him actually being that great of a mobile transition D-man.