Salary Cap: Salary Cap + Roster Building (Cap Details in First Post) | Closed

[Tasty Biscuits]

I was clearly talking about his time with the Penguins. If you misread that, that's your problem.

Much of the discussion concerned players who hadn't played in the bigs yet. If it had been clear, we wouldn't be here. Irrelevant though at this point, I'm getting flashbacks of people defending Adams long before the Pens moved on from him.

 

[ColePens]

I've seen people mention it and i'm a tad intrigued. Brass with Geno and Horny. It could be awesome. It could be brutal. I do not think there is anywhere in between. But it's enough to intrigue me.

 

[Tasty Biscuits]

Grant in his last 10 games:

-4 points, all at ES, while only averaging 5:52 a night at ES
-Plays 1:45 a night on the PK, on a team that has a 89.3% PK% over this stretch
-Has a positive CF%Rel despite only getting a 11.11% offensive zone start%

Yeah, Grant totally sucks. The dude should just retire because of how bad of a player he is.

Okay, I was off by one whole week in my assessment.

Obviously his points are at ES, he's not getting them any other way, what a weird qualifier.

Ah, the old "This player is an indispensable part of the PK because of the numbers." Take out the Tampa debacle for adjustment's sake, and the PK is better since we traded Hagelin. Guess ZAR and Grant are better PKers than Hagelin, the percentages of the irrefutable sample size you posted don't lie.

 

[Beauner]

Fehr, Scott Wilson, Rowney and Kuhnhackl were quite literally the 11th/12th forwards when they were here. Wilson and Fehr did get put in the top 6 for a couple games, and they actually produced.

We have ZAR, Sheahan, Grant, and to a lesser extent Garrett Wilson playing significant middle-six minutes for us at varying times. I don't care if there are injuries, Riley f***ing Sheahan should never ever ever have to be in a position where he is on Evgeni Malkin's line.

 

[Tasty Biscuits]

I've seen people mention it and i'm a tad intrigued. Brass with Geno and Horny. It could be awesome. It could be brutal. I do not think there is anywhere in between. But it's enough to intrigue me.

Anything to make these games more entertaining, right?

 

[Empoleon8771]

The problem with comparing Grant to Adams? Grant is actually giving positive results for the Penguins and has been an effective player for 2 years at this point. Adams produced less (most of the time) with more ice time, and had worse possession stats with easier minutes than Grant has gotten this year. Grant isn't a bad player in any way, I don't know why people are hell-bent on saying he's bad just because he's a bland player. He has been playing really well in the last 10 or so games, and his worst with the Penguins this year has been him doing nothing. His worst is that he's kinda just there.

Not every Fehr, Spaling or Grant kind of player is comparable to Adams.

Fehr, Scott Wilson, Rowney and Kuhnhackl were quite literally the 11th/12th forwards when they were here. Wilson and Fehr did get put in the top 6 for a couple games, and they actually produced.

We have ZAR, Sheahan, Grant, and to a lesser extent Garrett Wilson playing significant middle-six minutes for us at varying times. I don't care if there are injuries, Riley ****ing Sheahan should never ever ever have to be in a position where he is on Evgeni Malkin's line.

I mean, no? What? Are you extrapolating ZAR's usage to everyone else? ZAR is the only guy there that has gotten "significant middle-six minutes" for any significant stretch this season. I have no clue how you can legitimately say that Fehr, Wilson, Rowney and Kuhnhackl were used like 11th/12th forwards here. Do people forget that Kuhnhackl was playing with Malkin for numerous stretches over the last 3 years? Do people forget that Fehr was a top-9 staple for his first season?

 

[ColePens]

Anything to make these games more entertaining, right?

For G, I don't think it gets any worse. He will bring it back up shortly. So i'd rather try it now just to see if it can snap him out of the funk. And the games cannot be any more frustrating to watch.

 

[Empoleon8771]

Okay, I was off by one whole week in my assessment.

Obviously his points are at ES, he's not getting them any other way, what a weird qualifier.

Ah, the old "This player is an indispensable part of the PK because of the numbers." Take out the Tampa debacle for adjustment's sake, and the PK is better since we traded Hagelin. Guess ZAR and Grant are better PKers than Hagelin, the percentages of the irrefutable sample size you posted don't lie.

That's such a stupid jump in logic that it doesn't deserve a serious response. And you're accusing me of trolling? How cute.

For G, I don't think it gets any worse. He will bring it back up shortly. So i'd rather try it now just to see if it can snap him out of the funk. And the games cannot be any more frustrating to watch.

My only concern is putting a struggling Malkin with whatever the hell Brassard has been this year. I could see that move snapping both of them out of their funks, but I can also see them making their issues even worse. Malkin and Hornqvist have been hit and miss it seems like, so putting 2 struggling players and a guy who may or may not fit may be disastrous.

 

[Beauner]

I have no clue how you can legitimately say that Fehr, Wilson, Rowney and Kuhnhackl were used like 11th/12th forwards here.

They spent 90% of their playing time on the 4th line while they were here. I mean.... that's literally the defnition of being an 11th/12th forward

 

[Empoleon8771]

They spent 90% of their playing time on the 4th line while they were here. I mean.... that's literally the defnition of being an 11th/12th forward

You do know we have the data available to actually test these claims, right?

This is actually something I'm curious about, so I'm going to actually look into the numbers. At first glance, Fehr's 13 minutes TOI/game in 2015-2016 suggests he was mostly used on the 3rd line that year and I specifically remember Kuhnhackl getting multiple stretches with Malkin over the years.

 

[Beauner]

You do know we have the data available to actually test these claims, right?

This is actually something I'm curious about, so I'm going to actually look into the numbers. At first glance, Fehr's 13 minutes TOI/game in 2015-2016 suggests he was mostly used on the 3rd line that year and I specifically remember Kuhnhackl getting multiple stretches with Malkin over the years.

Corsica | Line Stats
Eric Fehr's most common linemates in 15-16 were Cullen, Kuhnhckl, Wilson and....Sergei Plotnikov.

Tom Kuhnhackl's most common linemates from 15-17 were Cullen, Fehr, Rust and Sundqvist. Malkin doesn't even show up.

 

[Gurglesons]

Fehr was played with Malkin as well. People are romanticizing as always.

 

[Gurglesons]

Fehr, Scott Wilson, Rowney and Kuhnhackl were quite literally the 11th/12th forwards when they were here. Wilson and Fehr did get put in the top 6 for a couple games, and they actually produced.

We have ZAR, Sheahan, Grant, and to a lesser extent Garrett Wilson playing significant middle-six minutes for us at varying times. I don't care if there are injuries, Riley ****ing Sheahan should never ever ever have to be in a position where he is on Evgeni Malkin's line.

If healthy our top nine is some combo of

Jake - Sid - Hornqvist
Pearson - Malkin - Kessel
Simon - Brassard - Rust

People want to downplay the fact two top nine wingers are injured right now.

 

[Beauner]

If healthy our top nine is some combo of

Jake - Sid - Hornqvist
Pearson - Malkin - Kessel
Simon - Brassard - Rust

People want to downplay the fact two top nine wingers are injured right now.

Understood. What I'm saying is that in years past, Fehr and Wilson in particular could step into top 9 or even top 6 roles and not look like a bumbling idiot, even if their "ideal" spot was the 4th line

Fehr was played with Malkin as well. People are romanticizing as always.

According to the Corsica link he played with Malkin in the regular season so little it's not even worth discussing. He did play a decent amount with him in the playoffs, but again spent the significant portion of his TOI on the 4th line

 

[chethejet]

The issue to me is not they can't play well for a stretch. But that the stretch is not long and not sustainable with the things that carry over game to game. Defense and goal tending. Pens with improved play on those ends can be a much better team.

 

[Empoleon8771]

Kuhnhackl and Fehr both had 16% of their ice time with Crosby, Malkin or Bonino, which will go up when you consider Kuhnhackl with 3C Sheahan and Brassard in 2017-2018 and Fehr as the 3C when Bonino was injured in 2015-2016. Wilson had nearly as much time in the top-9 as he had outside of the top-9, he spent about 47% of his ice time with Crosby, Malkin or Bonino. You are correct with Rowney, Sullivan didn't even go that far (only 8% above the 4th line). So I'd say about 10% for Rowney, 20% for Kuhnhackl, 25% for Fehr and 50% for Wilson.

ZAR has been crazily used by the Penguins, with getting 57% of his ice time with Crosby, Malkin or Brassard (although it's a smaller sample size, since ZAR only has played in 33 games), and that will likely go up even further when you consider 3rd lines like ZAR-Sheahan-Rust. Sheahan is a little tough to look at since he was the 3C for as long as he was last year (which he deserved that spot) and Brassard has been hurt for a good chunk of his time here. Since Brassard's first game, Sheahan has spent about 121 minutes with Crosby, Malkin or Brassard and 379 minutes without either of them. He's at about 75% of his ice time as a 3C without Brassard or on the 4th line. Grant isn't even worth looking at because he hasn't spent any time with Crosby, Malkin or Brassard this year.

So basically, outside of ZAR (which everyone could tell you), Sullivan hasn't used vanilla players now any better or worse than he did in the past. When the Penguins have had 3 better centers, he has used Sheahan just like he used Fehr. He has used Grant just like he has used Rowney. He has replaced Wilson with ZAR and then ramped it up, but that's about it when it comes to Sullivan's over-usage with vanilla players.

Corsica | Line Stats
Eric Fehr's most common linemates in 15-16 were Cullen, Kuhnhckl, Wilson and....Sergei Plotnikov.

Tom Kuhnhackl's most common linemates from 15-17 were Cullen, Fehr, Rust and Sundqvist. Malkin doesn't even show up.

Kuhnhackl was used a lot in the top-9 with the Penguins last year, in 2017-2018. Over the full season, he played 36:27 with Corsby and 52:04 with Malkin. Before Brassard's first game, he played 92:04 with Sheahan. Kuhnhackl got crazy top-9 minutes last season, he was used nearly as much in the top-9 last season as Wilson was from 2015-2017.

 

[EightyOne]

Would AHLers actually be worse than the Pens current fourth line?

 

[WheresRamziAbid]

Random fact of the day...

Kessel and Maata 10.885 makes almost identical money as Schwartz and Paryako 10.850.

Not sayin...just sayin

 

[Gurglesons]

Understood. What I'm saying is that in years past, Fehr and Wilson in particular could step into top 9 or even top 6 roles and not look like a bumbling idiot, even if their "ideal" spot was the 4th line

I don’t really agree with that. This forum buried Fehr the same way they are burying ZAR.

Wilson was a third wheel on Malkin - Kessel line in the playoffs, but that line was not very good at ES with him there. They played nearly 80 minutes together in the post season that year and combined for 4 GFs.

I dunno. Our depth has not been the issue this year at least in terms of production.

 

[Gurglesons]

Would AHLers actually be worse than the Pens current fourth line?

I mean, it is essentially two AHLers.

 

[cheesedanish87]

DK insider this morning had a piece on how the front office and coaches are coming to the realization that they need to get younger, faster players to win NOW because they’re not winning 50-50 puck battles and they think it’s not for lack of effort....lol...

Are they just seeing this now! What have they been watching?

Also said it’s not about WBS call ups but trading players for younger players and prospects...

I don't know why it took them so long to figure this out.

Its almost impossible to get young fast impact players in a trade, every team in the league wants to be young and fast, teams aren't going to trade away those players.

The way to get young fast players is by drafting and developing.

 

[Andy99]

I don't know why it took them so long to figure this out.

Its almost impossible to get young fast impact players in a trade, every team in the league wants to be young and fast, teams aren't going to trade away those players.

The way to get young fast players is by drafting and developing.

"Drafting and developing? What's that?"-- Penguin's front office

 

[Tasty Biscuits]

That's such a stupid jump in logic that it doesn't deserve a serious response. And you're accusing me of trolling? How cute.

No different than attributing a unit's success to a completely inconsequential and replaceable part.

Kuhnhackl was used a lot in the top-9 with the Penguins last year, in 2017-2018. Over the full season, he played 36:27 with Corsby and 52:04 with Malkin. Before Brassard's first game, he played 92:04 with Sheahan. Kuhnhackl got crazy top-9 minutes last season

Which is an example of garbage coaching, and I'm glad JR took away Sully's toy. Bylsma would oftentimes move Glass up with Crosby at the start of a game to "set a tone" or something. Who knows. Doesn't make him a better player than those who didn't get the opportunity -- just another example of garbage coaching.

Would AHLers actually be worse than the Pens current fourth line?

Considering the majority of the 4th line is AHLers anyway, it's silly not to try to mix in one or two more every now and then.

 

[Empoleon8771]

No different than attributing a unit's success to a completely inconsequential and replaceable part.

There's a difference between saying a guy is playing well because he's a PKer and the PK has done fantastically, and saying that the PK is great because of one guy. I thought that would be fairly obvious. The PK isn't good because of any individual player, but you can give the guys on the PK credit for the PK being good.

Which is an example of garbage coaching, and I'm glad JR took away Sully's toy. Bylsma would oftentimes move Glass up with Crosby at the start of a game to "set a tone" or something. Who knows. Doesn't make him a better player than those who didn't get the opportunity -- just another example of garbage coaching.

The discussion was about how vanilla guys now aren't being used like vanilla guys in the past, which wasn't true, Kuhnhackl being used like that is perfect evidence of that not being true.

"Drafting and developing? What's that?"-- Penguin's front office

I mean, do we actually want to go down this route? I don't know why people pretend the Penguins haven't drafted and developed extraordinarily well in recent years. The Penguins have 15 former draft picks from 2010-2015 in the NHL right now (Rust, Kuhnhackl, Agostino, Morrow, Harrington, Archibald, Wilson, Pouliot, Maatta, Sundqvist, Murray, Guentzel, Kapanen, Sprong and Simon).

 

[The Old Master]

The way to get young fast players is by drafting and developing.

well i dont know... how about keeping the ones you do draft?