Rumor: Rumors and Proposals Thread | Spector: Kassian Extension Before Trade Deadline? Anything Else?

[ChaoticOrange]

Bear I think is better than Makar at 5v5 and even to Hughes. It’s crazy how good he is.

Also factoring in that Bear gets physically involved and Hughes avoids contact at all costs. He's a good player but I don't think it's that crazy to put Bear in that tier (of course allotting for the fact that Hughes is younger)

 

[ujju2]

I want someone with more skill than Kassian on Connor's left side. Same physical skillset as Kass (maybe not quite as tough fighting wise as that's asking a bit much) but better at passing, shooting, puck protection, etc. than Kass

So basically in simple terms, Kassian is sort of our Tom Wilson and now we need our Ovi-lite.

 

[ChaoticOrange]

I could see Hughes, Makar appears to be on a different planet as a rookie.

Makar's amazing, but even he has 15 PPP to Bear's 1.

Also every time I look at rookie defencemen I'm reminded of how badly fleeced we got on the Marino deal.

 

[Jimmi McJenkins]

Makar's amazing, but even he has 15 PPP to Bear's 1.

Also every time I look at rookie defencemen I'm reminded of how badly fleeced we got on the Marino deal.

I mean if it's true that he wouldn't have signed due to Chiarelli being fired, not much you can do there.

 

[McShogun99]

Yup.

If I heard right it was:

Mikael Backlund
Dennis Wideman
6th overall

For

Jesse Puljujarvi
4th overall
unspecified 2nd round pick.

I mean, hindsight is 20/20, but at the time that's not a good trade for us at all. Backlund was 2 years to UFA and would have been behind Connor and RNH at centre and Wideman was a massive one-year cap dump coming off of assaulting an official. I don't blame Chia for not doing it.

That deal is just as bad now as it was then. If you remove Wideman and JP gets drafted by Columbus then it's a good deal. What kind of GM takes a cap dump to move down to spots?? (Knowing Chia he probably makes that deal if JP was off the board)

 

[CupofOil]

Fans of other teams on the mains get really upset when you tell them that Bear is in no way, shape, or form available. Mostly because they have zero idea of how good he's actually been.

I maintain that he'd be right up there with Makar and Hughes in scoring if he got powerplay time.

Come on.

Those guys push the play far better than Bear could ever imagine, they're far more dynamic. Makar especially.
I like Bear, he has far exceeded expectations, but he's not in the same stratosphere as those guys offensively. He might be better defensively though.

 

[ChaoticOrange]

I mean if it's true that he wouldn't have signed due to Chiarelli being fired, not much you can do there.

The thing is he came so far out of nowhere in terms of his readiness and impact that nobody had any idea how good he'd be. I'm still a little mad, though. A 6th isnt nothing but it's damned close.

Whatever scout in Pittsburgh recommended that they trade for him deserves a raise, and as usual I hate ours.

 

[Jimmi McJenkins]

Makar's amazing, but even he has 15 PPP to Bear's 1.

Also every time I look at rookie defencemen I'm reminded of how badly fleeced we got on the Marino deal.

I wonder how Bear's numbers come out compared to Makar and Hughes? If Bear could skate like those guys, he would be talked about in that same vain, imo.

 

[Jimmi McJenkins]

The thing is he came so far out of nowhere in terms of his readiness and impact that nobody had any idea how good he'd be. I'm still a little mad, though. A 6th isnt nothing but it's damned close.

Whatever scout in Pittsburgh recommended that they trade for him deserves a raise, and as usual I hate ours.

Yeah that guy totally deserves a bonus.

 

[oobga]

I mean if it's true that he wouldn't have signed due to Chiarelli being fired, not much you can do there.

Yeah, the time to move Marino was a year or 2 earlier like what was done with Fox (Fox couldn't be UFA until summer 2020. Flames traded him in 2018). Marino was actually nice to us and waited to declare he was done in college. If he did that before he got his trade, he starts his clock to be UFA last summer like Jultz and we just lose him for nothing.

Just bad timing. I certainly would not have wanted to keep Chia employed into the 2019 summer just so he could sign Marino before being fired

 

[ChaoticOrange]

Come on.

Those guys push the play far better than Bear could ever imagine, they're far more dynamic.
I like Bear, he has far exceeded expectations, but he's not in the same stratosphere as those guys offensively. He might be better defensively though.

Read what I said, carefully. I said he'd be up there in terms of scoring. I didn't say anything in terms of dynamics or impact.

Both Hughes and Makar are on their team's #1 powerplays. Klefbom has 15 powerplay points. I've never wanted him replaced on that unit, but if it were Bear on that unit instead of Klefbom, Bear could have 30 points already.

 

[McVirginOil]

Even with Marino he wasn’t even posting great numbers in college, how badly was he utilized down there???

 

[Faelko]

That deal is just as bad now as it was then. If you remove Wideman and JP gets drafted by Columbus then it's a good deal. What kind of GM takes a cap dump to move down to spots?? (Knowing Chia he probably makes that deal if JP was off the board)

So adding Backlund and Tkachuk/Sergachev/whoever to this lineup and subtracting nobody is a bad deal?

 

[McDNicks17]

These are the isolates for Bear/Nurse

The RAPM model will still include stuff like Nurse+Klefbom getting filled in for ~30 seconds after PKs end though. It tries to deal with context like usage, but it won't get that stuff. That doesn't show the true value of a player and it'll have a huge impact on the numbers in such a small sample size.

It's tough to really compare the isolates too since they use past performance as a baseline for some reason. His numbers might be lower, but I'd assume Nurse's baseline would be higher.

 

[CupofOil]

Read what I said, carefully. I said he'd be up there in terms of scoring. I didn't say anything in terms of dynamics or impact.

Both Hughes and Makar are on their team's #1 powerplays. Klefbom has 15 powerplay points. I've never wanted him replaced on that unit, but if it were Bear on that unit instead of Klefbom, Bear could have 30 points already.

I read what you said. He wouldn't be up there with Makar in scoring no matter what PP he played on. Makar will be a 20 goal, 70+ point player for years to come. It's an outlandish projection for Bear.

 

[gordonhught]

Green is good, red is bad, orange is average, and blue is superb.

So from best to worse is Blue, Green, Orange, and then Red.

What does all the other stuff mean?

EDIT: That is OK. I really do not need an answer.

 

[McShogun99]

So adding Backlund and Tkachuk/Sergachev/whoever to this lineup and subtracting nobody is a bad deal?

No one was passing on JP at #4 during the draft. Even if JP was drafted by Columbus no sane GM takes a cap dump to move down 2 spots when the sweetener is a 3C. If you look at that deal with the knowledge we have today then you make that deal but we can't look at deals like that.

 

[ChaoticOrange]

Did some digging around since I'm on a break and the rookie defence results are pretty interesting.

I ran the SKATR tool for Bear vs four of the top rookie D in the league. Yes, Bear absolutely deserves to be in the conversation with them.

 

[ChaoticOrange]

I read what you said. He wouldn't be up there with Makar in scoring no matter what PP he played on. Makar will be a 20 goal, 70+ point player for years to come. It's an outlandish projection for Bear.

I didn't say anything about projection either, stop putting words in my mouth.

If Bear got powerplay time he'd be in the same realm of points that Makar and Hughes are right now. I didn't say a thing about upside, or in 5 years.

 

[Faelko]

No one was passing on JP at #4 during the draft. Even if JP was drafted by Columbus no sane GM takes a cap dump to move down 2 spots when the sweetener is a 3C. If you look at that deal with the knowledge we have today then you make that deal but we can't look at deals like that.

Certainly easier with the benefit of hindsight. As bad as our D was we probably would’ve used Wideman that year...lol

 

[BarDownBobo]

Even with Marino he wasn’t even posting great numbers in college, how badly was he utilized down there???

He was behind Adam Fox on the RHD depth chart who was gifted all the offensive opportunity. I watched a handful of Harvard games every year since I was a fan of Marino and his play this year is completely unexpected. I figured he could be a solid second pairing guy but not right out of college. I don’t think anyone on Pittsburgh even expected this when they made that deal.

 

[Seachd]

What do those stats up there mean in English for us regular folk?

Watch the games and you’ll be just as well off.

 

[McVirginOil]

Watch the games and you’ll be just as well off.

Nah watching the games is important but you can’t turn a blind eye to stats either. You have to have a balance of the two to have a good observation on hockey. Stats provide almost everything, watching provides context.

 

[LTIR]

Would you like to prove me wrong? Because I have the stats and my observations to prove my point.

Bear is great but not close to Klefbom as our #1.
You may pull stats that could show otherwise but Klefbom is our best Dman.

 

[Jimmi McJenkins]

He was behind Adam Fox on the RHD depth chart who was gifted all the offensive opportunity. I watched a handful of Harvard games every year since I was a fan of Marino and his play this year is completely unexpected. I figured he could be a solid second pairing guy but not right out of college. I don’t think anyone on Pittsburgh even expected this when they made that deal.

I was far from an expert on the player, but this was my thought as well. If the got out of Marino what the Oilers got from Benning his rookie year, that would been great and significant. What he's actually done is pretty astounding.