Rumor: Rumors and Proposals Thread | Reseason Training Camp Opens July 13th?

[Fourier]

I would argue the perception of Duchene and RNH is different, rightly or wrongly.

Duchene was coming off 58 points in 50 games, was an Olympian based off seasons nearing a PPG. Like Johansen, he was signed with the idea that he's a superstar. I don't think anyone will ever sign RNH thinking he's their solution.

Whose perception though. At the time that RJ was moved for Jones an informal poll had more hockey people picking Nuge. Since then with Johansen playing primarily as the teams #1 offensive center the numbers are

RJ 351 gp 65 g 184 a 249 pts

Nuge 346 gp 104 g 151 pts.

RJ has a slightly higher career pints per game number but he is not in a different tier offensively. I recent times "solutions" were getting $9M+.

 

[Fourier]

Duchene's highs are better than RNH and lows are lower, that's why the numbers even out.
Duchene had 4 seasons that matched Nuge's best season with 70 in 73, 70 in 71, 43 in 47 and a 67 point season, all without the McDrai boost which have certainly inflated his numbers of the last three seasons, two years ago and this season in particular. His career high was 56 points prior.

I like Nuge a lot, especially the offensively confident Nuge of the last two seasons, but Duchene has been a stronger driver of offense when he's on his game, more dynamic player.

You are falling into the same trap as we see far too often by saying "all without the McDrai Boost". Duchene has typically played with high end offensive players when he has been successful including at least one high end offensive defenseman. But the key is that he has always been an offense first kind of guy.

Two years ago when McLellan first challenged him Nuge was on pace for 60 points and almost 30 goals without either of those two and while playing on the second pp and at ES with guys like Lucic. Over the last three years his numbers away from Draisaitl and McDavid were actually better than Leon's away from the other two so who was driving the play when he was not with those two?

He is a more dynamic player than Nuge. That is for sure. But you don't get extra points on the score board for dynamic. The reality is that the numbers show that Nuge is in the same tier of player as Duchene even if it is not a popular opinion here.

 

[CupofOil]

You are falling into the same trap as we see far too often by saying "all without the McDrai Boost". Duchene has typically played with high end offensive players when he has been successful including at least one high end offensive defenseman. But the key is that he has always been an offense first kind of guy.

Two years ago when McLellan first challenged him Nuge was on pace for 60 points and almost 30 goals without either of those two and while playing on the second pp and at ES with guys like Lucic. Over the last three years his numbers away from Draisaitl and McDavid were actually better than Leon's away from the other two so who was driving the play when he was not with those two?

He is a more dynamic player than Nuge. That is for sure. But you don't get extra points on the score board for dynamic. The reality is that the numbers show that Nuge is in the same tier of player as Duchene even if it is not a popular opinion here.

I'm talking about pure offense.
For instance, if my team needs an offensive driver (a #1 or 1A center) like Nashville or Montreal, I'm taking Duchene. If I already have the top tier talent and I need a versatile, responsible complimentary player (#2C or top line wing) like Pittsburgh or Edmonton, I take RNH. Since we're talking about pure offense, it's Duchene IMO.

 

[Fourier]

I'm talking about pure offense.
For instance, if my team needs an offensive driver (a #1 or 1A center) like Nashville or Montreal, I'm taking Duchene. If I already have the top tier talent and I need a versatile, responsible complimentary player (#2C or top line wing) like Pittsburgh or Edmonton, I take RNH. Since we're talking about pure offense, it's Duchene IMO.

Duchene has never really been any more successful in that roll than RNH. His most successful years in terms of scoring he was not the line driving center you describe him as. In Colorado he had his greatest success playing as a complementary player on the wing. In Ottawa he had Hoffman, Stone, Chabot and Erik Karlsson to help drive play. Even Boby Ryan was able to contribute again when the team was allowed to play fire-wagon hockey.

What you are seeing in Nashville now, or Columbus after the trade, is what happens when Duchene is asked be the main guy "to drive the play". Being flashier does not mean more effective.

You can't just brush his "inconsistency" off. Because there is a reason for it. When he is asked to do other things than just be pure offensive guy his numbers drop off. This has typically been Nuge's primary role. So to only count the times when Duchene is playing the role Nuge is now and to similarly dismiss what Nuge is doing in the same role is hardly comparing apples to apples.

 

[SK13]

Whose perception though. At the time that RJ was moved for Jones an informal poll had more hockey people picking Nuge. Since then with Johansen playing primarily as the teams #1 offensive center the numbers are

RJ 351 gp 65 g 184 a 249 pts

Nuge 346 gp 104 g 151 pts.

RJ has a slightly higher career pints per game number but he is not in a different tier offensively. I recent times "solutions" were getting $9M+.

Johansen is clearly not better than RNH in the aftermath of that trade. But at the time, had scored 59 goals and 139 points in his last two years with CBJ & those were offensive peaks above and beyond anything in RNH's career (until right now). The Predators explicitly chose to pursue Johansen over RNH for that reason, because they were looking for a first line centre.

I guess the player that gives me the most pause about RNH @ 8M is Kevin Hayes' 7.14M dollar contract. But I still don't think the market would fall around 8M for him, it'd take some dumb desperate team to come out of the woodwork.

 

[Cloned]

Johansen is clearly not better than RNH in the aftermath of that trade. But at the time, had scored 59 goals and 139 points in his last two years with CBJ & those were offensive peaks above and beyond anything in RNH's career (until right now). The Predators explicitly chose to pursue Johansen over RNH for that reason, because they were looking for a first line centre.

I guess the player that gives me the most pause about RNH @ 8M is Kevin Hayes' 7.14M dollar contract. But I still don't think the market would fall around 8M for him, it'd take some dumb desperate team to come out of the woodwork.

Yeah, all it takes is a team with a weird fetish for ex-Oilers players who seemingly seeks to acquire anything the Oilers are interested in like they're collecting stamps.

Good thing there isn't a team like that in Alberta.

 

[SK13]

Yeah, all it takes is a team with a weird fetish for ex-Oilers players who seemingly seeks to acquire anything the Oilers are interested in like they're collecting stamps.

Good thing there isn't a team like that in Alberta.

RNH is way too cool to play for Calgary.

But this is all moot anyway. What the market would have been isn't going to be what the market is going to be. SOOO many teams are going to be cash poor on-top of cap poor.

 

[Cloned]

RNH is way too cool to play for Calgary.

But this is all moot anyway. What the market would have been isn't going to be what the market is going to be. SOOO many teams are going to be cash poor on-top of cap poor.

RNH and cool in the same sentence. Something I never thought I'd see on HF.

 

[SK13]

RNH and cool in the same sentence. Something I never thought I'd see on HF.

It's like that one college professor who is so profoundly uncool that he goes all the way around to be cool again.

At least from the outside. In reality that guy was out drinking with Ebs and Hall and probably pulling every night.

 

[Fourier]

Johansen is clearly not better than RNH in the aftermath of that trade. But at the time, had scored 59 goals and 139 points in his last two years with CBJ & those were offensive peaks above and beyond anything in RNH's career (until right now). The Predators explicitly chose to pursue Johansen over RNH for that reason, because they were looking for a first line centre.

I guess the player that gives me the most pause about RNH @ 8M is Kevin Hayes' 7.14M dollar contract. But I still don't think the market would fall around 8M for him, it'd take some dumb desperate team to come out of the woodwork.

And Nuge would be signing his deal after his best offensive years with a cap that would have been as much as 15-18% higher than when RJ signed. Nuge is older and of course Covid happened, but the rality is that he would be very much in the same tier as a player which was my point.

As I have said several times, I don't think he will get to UFA. I suspect if the Oilers offer him $6-7M on an 8 year deal this off season he signs it. In fact with the current situation, they can structure the deal to make it even more attractive by playing around with the signing bonuses.

There is a case for waiting until next year to save a slot in the expansion draft but that is risky. That might actually be a better strategy with Larsson.

 

[Cloned]

It's like that one college professor who is so profoundly uncool that he goes all the way around to be cool again.

At least from the outside. In reality that guy was out drinking with Ebs and Hall and probably pulling every night.

I think he's actually had a steady girlfriend for many many years now.

 

[Del Preston]

Eklund says the Flames are going all-in on Hall.

Spending almost $30 million/season on your four left wingers seems like something Treliving would do.

 

[bellagiobob]

Eklund says the Flames are going all-in on Hall.

Spending almost $30 million/season on your four left wingers seems like something Treliving would do.

Will likely clean house after the Jets sweep them in the play in round. Rebuild around Hall and Looch.

 

[Ritchie Valens]

Will likely clean house after the Jets sweep them in the play in round. Rebuild around Hall and Looch.

Gaudreau to somewhere and anywhere on the East Coast, E5.

 

[PositiveCashFlow]

If Eklund’s saying Hall’s going to the Flames that means he’s going to the Oilers.

 

[belair]

Eklund says the Flames are going all-in on Hall.

Spending almost $30 million/season on your four left wingers seems like something Treliving would do.

His whole idea of Gaudreau to NJ and them signing him makes sense overall. But it just screams Taylor Hall to consistently find himself on rosters that are nowhere near being competitive.

The Flames are poised to start next season with a 37 year old Mark Giordano, with both TJ Brodie and Travis Hamonic potentially walking as UFAs. Unless the return for Johnny Gaudreau is a very solid young defenseman ready to contribute now, Taylor Hall will be in his thirties before Calgary has any hope of making noise in the postseason.

 

[Rpenny]

Eklund says the Flames are going all-in on Hall.

Spending almost $30 million/season on your four left wingers seems like something Treliving would do.

Hasn't the Hall to Calgary been considered a sure thing for about a year now?

 

[Bryanbryoil]

Hasn't the Hall to Calgary been considered a sure thing for about a year now?

It would add an interesting new element to the BOA.

 

[Rpenny]

It would add an interesting new element to the BOA.

Move Hall to C and put him on a line with Looch and Tobias Rieder?

 

[iCanada]

sorry no

Even in Sweden he was a PP specialist who never was on the ice in his own zone

we are not talking about a 19 year old we are taking about a 26 year old

I think you don't give Persson enough credit. I think he had what it took to be a top 4 type NHL player, in terms of raw tools, hockey awareness, and talent.

I think however that as an athlete and a person he didn't have the piss and vinegar to become that top 4 guy at the NHL level. To quote McTavish; "done players win battles, some players lose battles, Schremp Persson didn't battle." Just a total lack of jam. Haas and Nygaard were both quoted as saying you need to sell out for every puck at this level, and idk if Persson even attempted every puck.

 

[Draiskull]

Wouldn't mind playing against Hall as a Flamer. He is someone the fanbase can get behind hating.
Ideally Oilers win a couple rounds these playoffs and Hall signs here for cheap seeing the potential for the cup and room on McWing.

6.5 x 6

 

[FlameChampion]

Signing Hall and Trading Gaudreau is such a lateral move. Probably worth it because Gaudreau would get a pretty nice haul (haha).

I think Gaudreau is a better regular season player but I think the Flames need to do something if they ever want to move further in the post season. Gaudreau and Monahan just dont cut it in the post season. I think Tkachuk and Lindholm are good players. The problem with the Flames is though, is that they need help to get to the post season to start, so losing Gaudreau isnt really a step in the right direction. I expect Winnipeg to win that series because I trust their top players way more and Rittich is a shell of himself after the Draisaitl incident. Honestly, the Flames probably need to get lucky and win a lottery spot because they are in no mans land, as far as I am concerned (which is fine to me lol). Too good to be a bottom feeder and not good enough to be a contender.

I just honestly think whoever signs Hall is going to regret it. Its going to be a bad contract. Hes too injury prone and doesnt really seem to improve those around him. I think he almost needs a Pittsburgh / Kessell situation to flourish but with how much money teams are going to throw at him, its going to be hard for him to pass up that situation for money. Ironically a team like Edmonton is probably what he needs but unless he takes a serious discount, this team cant afford him. That being said, I dont think hes a great fit for McDavid and Draisaitl already has wingers that he has chemistry with. If I was him, I would take a reasonable contract and sign with a team like the Avalanche.

 

[Mcnotloilersfan]

Signing Hall and Trading Gaudreau is such a lateral move. Probably worth it because Gaudreau would get a pretty nice haul (haha).

I think Gaudreau is a better regular season player but I think the Flames need to do something if they ever want to move further in the post season. Gaudreau and Monahan just dont cut it in the post season. I think Tkachuk and Lindholm are good players. The problem with the Flames is though, is that they need help to get to the post season to start, so losing Gaudreau isnt really a step in the right direction. I expect Winnipeg to win that series because I trust their top players way more and Rittich is a shell of himself after the Draisaitl incident. Honestly, the Flames probably need to get lucky and win a lottery spot because they are in no mans land, as far as I am concerned (which is fine to me lol). Too good to be a bottom feeder and not good enough to be a contender.

I just honestly think whoever signs Hall is going to regret it. Its going to be a bad contract. Hes too injury prone and doesnt really seem to improve those around him. I think he almost needs a Pittsburgh / Kessell situation to flourish but with how much money teams are going to throw at him, its going to be hard for him to pass up that situation for money. Ironically a team like Edmonton is probably what he needs but unless he takes a serious discount, this team cant afford him. That being said, I dont think hes a great fit for McDavid and Draisaitl already has wingers that he has chemistry with. If I was him, I would take a reasonable contract and sign with a team like the Avalanche.

It isn't really a lateral move though. A lateral move would be trading one for the other. Getting Hall, and trading Gaudreau for a player with a different dynamic would change the makeup of Calgary and make them a much better team.

That said, how good are they if Gio continues to decline?

 

[FlameChampion]

It isn't really a lateral move though. A lateral move would be trading one for the other. Getting Hall, and trading Gaudreau for a player with a different dynamic would change the makeup of Calgary and make them a much better team.

That said, how good are they if Gio continues to decline?

Yeah thats why I said its probably still worth it because they will get assets for Gaudreau. I guess it really comes down to, what will the Hall contract be worth and what are they getting for Gaudreau. If Hall is willing to sign a reasonable deal, which I would probably classify in the 7 mil range then it makes some sense. I just dont see that happening, I think hes going to want like 9 mil per year, but maybe the current cap/covid situation will keep the contract down, I dont know. And for a player like him, a short term deal would be more preferential , which I cant see either. Signing him to a 7-8 year deal is going to be bad imo.

Gaudreau had a pretty bad year for him, but I imagine he still has pretty good value and has a a pretty good contract. It might be worth trading him now, I dont watch Flames games enough to know if its a start of regression or just a one off. I just dont know what a team like the Devils have to trade other than draft picks (which might be fine but are the Flames willing to wait for the draft picks to develop?).

And I agree with the Gio comment. I think their defense is overrated and its only going to get worse.

 

[Draiskull]

Holland needs to lock Bear in a Klefbom like deal.
Don't see any history of him proactively signing guys for cheap so not holding my breath.

We have 10M to sign Bear, Benning, Athanisou and Smith\another backup.