Maybe there is an argument. His production is certainly good, but in my opinion he needs to score at a higher clip to be considered a likely or potential top 4 defenseman, at his size.It's a legitimate contextual argument that London's d men and PP structure limited/limits his points, as they did/do Juolevi's. Last year they'd even run a 5 forward PP unit at times. A guy like Vande Sompel is now there, and his consistent p/pg scoring was cut in half. It's......tricky. Being on a high scoring team can be a huge boon, but not always if your minutes and usage get spread around to put a cap on it.
There's always something to be desired in just comparing one player to another using a simple tool based on height and similar draft scoring. There are a lot of undersized junior players who don't translate, even the highest of scorers. I get the paper comparison, but I just think Mete stands out more than most on tape, at least as it comes to being a player worth taking a chance on. I thought it last year and projected further improvement, and so far so good. Most of those comps didn't improve stats-wise (like Mete clearly has this year); it says nothing of how they actually were as intelligent, defensive players, which Mete is often relied on to be, beyond simply scoring; it makes no comparison to ability, as Mete is truly an elite skater. I don't know what comparison tool that is, but I think neither of us would be surprised to see some dubious ones for some quality NHLers. I wonder who Spurgeon's comparables were?
Wasn't really comparing Morin to Mete. They couldn't be more different. Just pointing out that saying a guy is "almost PPG" when he's really not, and ranks 'such and such' in the league can be a bit misleading.Comparing his D+1 scoring to Morin's in his D+2 year is also an odd comparison......Spurgeon didn't play on offensively starved teams either, with guys like Beach and Tyler Johnson, even if they weren't quite the Knights in scoring. Heck, Spokane won the Mem Cup his draft year! And their numbers are quite similar year to year. To me, none of this is an inherent issue in projecting him as a mid round lottery ticket prospect. I've never watched him and seen some inherent flaw or junior quality that dooms him. Just his size, which he mitigates with other factors.
Fair enough. I was just making a point that I don't think the Flyers passed up an obvious supreme talent. I still don't think he's 5'10 and I would love to see an official measurement.I'm not even sure what we're arguing, but I am really not trying to argue Mete was some great mistake or some can't-miss, as some like to do here with others. All I said was I did like him last year and would've been very OK with him, and he's doing well this year too. I'm not second guessing the pick; this isn't Ghoul. We selected two quality defensemen with 5th and 7th round picks anyway.
There are very few "difference makers" after the 2nd rd,
Part of the equation here that I haven't seen mentioned in a while is that it's also entirely possible they see more upside in Twarynski than you or I might, especially given their love for that org. They sure didn't shy away from upside plays elsewhere.
Kelowna is in Kamloops for game 3 tomorrow, up 2-0 in the series.
I'm going to reserve judgement on Twarynski, he's got another year of junior before I think about judging him too much. If he misses, oh well. He'll just be in a long line of mid to late round players who didn't make it. Who cares though, Hextall has drafted very well overall.
Twarynski is a 97, so next year he will be an overager and AHL eligible. Very few drafted players go back to the CHL for an overage year, and if they do, it's because the organization that drafted them has given up on them.
If the Flyers are committed to him, he should get a contract this summer and be in the AHL next year. [that being said, I'd be happy if he was sent back to the Rockets as it means the Hitmen get an extra draft pick]
Twarynski is a 97, so next year he will be an overager and AHL eligible. Very few drafted players go back to the CHL for an overage year, and if they do, it's because the organization that drafted them has given up on them.
If the Flyers are committed to him, he should get a contract this summer and be in the AHL next year. [that being said, I'd be happy if he was sent back to the Rockets as it means the Hitmen get an extra draft pick]
He`s a late 97`so I imagine he`ll go back and your Hitmen will get the pick. I`d be surprised if he was in the AHL in the fall, but stranger things have happened.
Maybe we`ll draft another player from Calgary and you`ll give us updates again?
I was actually wrong on the conditional pick. It's Calgary's third round pick that is included - Kelowna gets the pick if Twarynski moves on to pro hockey next season.
Everyone is making good points about him returning, and I don't disagree. It's interesting contrasting the various fanboards here - the Winnipeg posters were incredibly upset that I would even suggest sending Matteo Gennaro back for an OA season next year, while you guys seem to be generally okay with the concept.
It will be interesting if the Flyers do send him back - the Rockets could be jammed for 20s next year depending on who is returned. He may be on the move again, in which case I could easily see a trip back to Calgary as the Hitmen will have OA openings.
[the following is way off-topic, feel free to quote/repost/move this section to a more applicable part of the Flyers board]
As for the Flyers drafting any Hitmen this year... it's bleak. The top potential pick is Mark Kastelic, he's kinda like a Twarynski-lite. Lots of tenacity and decent hands, but not great skating, low IQ, lots of PIMS, and not a lot of size. Next choice would probably be Andrei Grishakov, he's more of a Fazleev-minus. Really hampered by limited minutes early in the season, a language barrier, and positionally he's not sound. He's got good hands and a great shot, but not great in transition or on the cycle. Your other choices for 99s at forwards are Matt Dorsey (lightning fast but injury prone) or Lucas Cullen (small, skilled guy that gets run over frequently). From the forward group, there are no 98s worth taking in their second year of eligibility.
On the backend, top choice would be Vladislav Yeryomenko, another rookie import. He looked great in preseason, good skating, positionally strong, and had decent shooting and passing. Once the big boys came back from pro camps, and our coaching went to ****, he really gets stuffed in his own end. Jakob LaPointe is a 98 that went undrafted last year - he's a big kid that likes to play physical and is solid in his own end. With better coaching I could see him being a really good depth NHL defenceman, but I think his career got stifled by a year of bad coaching.
In net, Kyle Dumba is a 98 that went undrafted and again, could be a decent project that has been stuck as a backup for 3 consecutive years now. He never really got the chance to exhibit his skills. Really athletic goalie with a lot of raw talent that, with the right coaching and mindset, could be a force.
All in all, I think the Flyers are better served looking at the 2018 eligible guys on the Hitmen. Tristen Nielsen is a small guy with one hell of an engine, and he has no fear in the corners taking or giving a hit. I've seen him run over much bigger defencemen because he's so solid on his skates. His hands need a bit of work but I think mostly they don't keep up with his feet, so that will come along next season. As above, stifled by coaching so his stats aren't great but I expect big things next year. Murph Stratton is a late 99 so he's 2018 eligible, and he's a big winger similar to Twarynski, with a hell of a strong shot. Expect a big step forward next year. On the back end, Drea Esposito [rumor is he's Phil's grandson, can't find anything to confirm] projects to be a solid 2-way defender. We'll see what he does with better icetime next year.
2 defencemen to look at long-term: Jackson van de Leest and Jackson Niedermayer [confirmed as Scott's son]. The former Jackson is a hulk of a kid, smooth skater, and is looking decent for the Hitmen in the games he's drawn in for this year. The latter I haven't seen yet, but have heard good things about him and he obviously has the bloodlines.
Sorry to derail this even more bit what happened to Calgarys coaching staff? I thought they usually had a solid staff?
I think it's a combination of management and coaching, actually.
Mike Williamson was fired in April 2014 (for reasons I can't ascertain), and it looked like Brent Kisio was going to be promoted from assistant/associate coach to full head coach. Instead they brought in Mark French, who was coaching professional hockey over in Europe and had never coached at a junior level before.
Williamson got hired in Tri-City. Kisio quit after French was named, headed south to Lethbridge and has absolutely turned that team around.
First, on the management side - the Hitmen are a very successful franchise. This is their 21st season in the WHL and the 19th time they've made the playoffs. They've developed a mantra - "this is a team that doesn't miss the playoffs". Which is great for selling to fans, but not all that great for building a team long-term, because it comes down to asset management. Look at the Twarynski trade - they traded a solid top-6 19yo for a middle/bottom-6 18yo (Jake Kryski). Basically turning a decent winger with good upside for a plug that will come back next year. Giving up a third rounder if Twarynski is in the AHL next year is even worse asset management. They made a similar deadline deal with Prince Albert - sending 19yo Jordy Stallard for 18yo Luke Coleman. Stallard is a drafted top-6 winger, Coleman is an undrafted bottom-6 plug. Both trades mean that next year, 2 roster spots are filled by guys that simply take up ice instead of developing players.
Still on the asset management (although this goes into coaching a bit as well), is the goaltending situation. This is the fourth season that Kyle Dumba has been affiliated with the team (emergency backup as a 15 and 16, full backup as a 17 and 18). He's long been touted as the future franchise goaltender, but never given the chance. When Cody Porter went down with a devastating shoulder injury(s) in January, we all expected Dumba to get the crease and throw an 15yo affiliate on the bench. Instead, the Hitmen "acquired" 20yo Trevor Martin from the OHL (making Calgary his 5th CHL team of the season) to be the new starter. Poor Kyle Dumba has never been given the chance to develop into a #1 goalie.
I'm not sure whether this is coaching or management, but there is a determined effort somewhere to pin the C onto an overager. There is zero doubt this year that this is Jake Bean's team - he's a leader on the ice, a leader on the bench, the face of the team locally, and the guy the coach sends to talk to the refs. Yet Michael Zipp was named captain this year, because he's 20. Last year it was Travis Sanheim's team, but the C was on Colby Harmsworth's sweater. Before that, it was Kenton Helgesen, and Jaynen Rissling. The last player to wear the C that wasn't 20 was Cody Sylvester in 11-12 (he was also captain in 12-13). I literally can't remember the last time a draft-eligible player wore the C, despite multiple candidates. I am sure this puts a rift on the team, and over-emphasizes age in the dressing room which is again stifling development.
Further to that, the Hitmen seem committed to running with 3 overagers regardless of context. Sure, I'll give them Michael Zipp as an OA this year because they're thin on defence, but Tyler Mrkonjic and Taylor Sanheim had no business taking up a roster spot. We dropped Sanheim to make room for Martin (see above).
Finally, the coaching. French is trying to convince these kids that every game is winnable. Earlier in the season, he was continually pulling the goalie with games well out of reach, and with way too much time on the clock (down 4-0, pull the goalie with 6 minutes left). End result, extra goals against. He also doesn't give his goalies any leash to work through issues - very trigger happy to pull them. All 3 main goalies have had consistency issues, and I'm certain it's attached to confidence. My seats are behind the attacking net, but every time a goalie allows a goal in the second he's looking to the bench right away.
He's also not managing young players well. The Hitmen tend to have a tough schedule, even for the WHL, because they're marketed to kids. They'll often play 3 games in a weekend, Friday in Calgary, Saturday away (Red Deer, Lethbridge, Edmonton, Medicine Hat, Kootenay, Regina, and Saskatoon are all close enough), then back in Calgary on Sunday afternoon. I can't tell you how many times I've seen Jake Bean double shifted in the Friday game, even when the game is lost. Just draining the kid on the first game of a 3-in-3 schedule, and the occasion that sticks out the most was a 7-2 loss to MH.
The systems that the Hitmen are playing are terrible. It's partially skill based, but any breakout the Hitmen attempt that isn't 100% perfect completely falls apart. Meaning, once the other team has adapted to the Hitmen's system, they get jammed in their own end. Wingers are generally too high and not moving (the WHL is terrible for a play where the defenceman gets the puck behind his own net, fires a hard shot/pass to a winger at the far blueline, who just deflects it in and then forechecks).
As a final point, there is no fire to this team. I'm used to seeing Mike Williamson teams, where the players have an edge, play physical, and are willing to engage in the typical WHL push/shove/facewash in front of both nets. Even in the playoffs, this is noticeably lacking for Calgary. I used to think it was team-makeup, but look at what Twarynski is doing in Kelowna now. He was on a leash here.
Sorry for the long post - I guess I needed a bit of a vent before I go watch the Pats end our season.