Movies: Rise of Skywalker [SPOILER] Edition - II

[Pranzo Oltranzista]

Sam Witwer talked about some of that stuff. His opinion ultimately came down to Luke. Luke not helping his sister and taunting Kylo at the end, both being out of character. Witwer said that he does believe that RJ is talented and he found some of the stuff compelling, but that it just didn't fit Star Wars.

You got me even more lost now. Who is Sam Witmer? Why does he have any authority on the matter?

Most importantly, how is the fact that, in this guy's opinion, a character's actions being out of character has any relevance to the director's understanding of SW? As I recall, Luke has been isolated on an island for some long period of time following a traumatic experience. What understanding are we supposed to have at that point of his character? And even more importantly, Luke didn't help his sister and did taunt Kylo, so shouldn't that be the material we base our construction of his character on?

 

[ArGarBarGar]

RJ knows Star Wars more than Star Wars fans.

 

[bleedblue1223]

You got me even more lost now. Who is Sam Witmer? Why does he have any authority on the matter?

Most importantly, how is the fact that, in this guy's opinion, a character's actions being out of character has any relevance to the director's understanding of SW? As I recall, Luke has been isolated on an island for some long period of time following a traumatic experience. What understanding are we supposed to have at that point of his character? And even more importantly, Luke didn't help his sister and did taunt Kylo, so shouldn't that be the material we base our construction of his character on?

He voiced Maul. He's been in and around Lucasfilm and a big SW nut.

We had 3 full OT films to base our construction of his character on.

 

[bleedblue1223]

RJ knows Star Wars more than Star Wars fans.

This is just silly, but obviously you are just doing this to troll and get a reaction.

I'm also not saying that the fans know more, but calls to authority are just dumb. Michael Bay knows more about Transformers than Transformers fans because he directed Transformers.

 

[ArGarBarGar]

This is just silly, but obviously you are just doing this to troll and get a reaction.

I'm being as silly as those who assert he doesn't know Star Wars.

Also it has been 2.5 years since the movie came out. I enjoy making fun of silly hyperbolic comments of people who can't let TLJ go than actually trying to have the same discussion about Luke/Holdo/Smoke/Jar Jar for the 100th time.

I also think a good chunk of hardcore Star Wars fans talk out of their ass to justify why their vision of Star Wars is the objectively good one and why one director's vision is objectively bad. And what Star Wars is really is more open ended than most assert.

 

[MadDevil]

I actually wasn't bothered by the handling of Luke, but I can definitely see how "subverting expectations" with such a beloved and heroic character wouldn't work for others.

My biggest issues with TLJ are really everything not Luke, Rey, or Kylo related. Poe and Finn were completely wasted. Sure the Holdo Maneuver was visually stunning, but that entire story arc was a mess. Canto Bight was pointless and didn't feel like Star Wars.

 

[bleedblue1223]

I actually wasn't bothered by the handling of Luke, but I can definitely see how "subverting expectations" with such a beloved and heroic character wouldn't work for others.

My biggest issues with TLJ are really everything not Luke, Rey, or Kylo related. Poe and Finn were completely wasted. Sure the Holdo Maneuver was visually stunning, but that entire story arc was a mess. Canto Bight was pointless and didn't feel like Star Wars.

Finn was the biggest waste of a character. They set it up as the FO kidnapping and indoctrinating children, and then they never went in depth on it. That arc didn't make sense from a military standpoint either. When Poe finally commits the mutiny and holds Holdo and other officers at gunpoint, Holdo still doesn't tell him what the plan is. She was willing to go down just to teach him a lesson that he needs to blindly follow orders.

 

[bleedblue1223]

I'm being as silly as those who assert he doesn't know Star Wars.

Also it has been 2.5 years since the movie came out. I enjoy making fun of silly hyperbolic comments of people who can't let TLJ go than actually trying to have the same discussion about Luke/Holdo/Smoke/Jar Jar for the 100th time.

I also think a good chunk of hardcore Star Wars fans talk out of their ass to justify why their vision of Star Wars is the objectively good one and why one director's vision is objectively bad. And what Star Wars is really is more open ended than most assert.

You act like it's just those fans. Mark Hamill disagreed with Rian too. That doesn't make either one right or wrong, but RJ's take was controversial, which is pretty much what his intent was.

You must think a good chunk of SW fans just eat, drink, and sleep Mauler.

 

[Pranzo Oltranzista]

He voiced Maul. He's been in and around Lucasfilm and a big SW nut.

We had 3 full OT films to base our construction of his character on.

I get that, but there was a lot happening and a lot of time between The Return of the Jedi and the return of Luke, why wouldn't he have changed somewhat? It's kind of out of character from him to have stayed stranded on an island, away from the fight and from his friends. More importantly, there was 3 OT films that you based your construction of the character on, but TLJ is their official sequel and the continuity of the same character, so why wouldn't you re-construct your knowledge of the character with these new elements? Why would "a big SW nut"'s idea of what should have been be more credible than what actually is?

 

[ArGarBarGar]

You act like it's just those fans. Mark Hamill disagreed with Rian too. That doesn't make either one right or wrong, but RJ's take was controversial, which is pretty much what his intent was.

You must think a good chunk of SW fans just eat, drink, and sleep Mauler.

Mark Hamill isn't infallible just because he played a character on Star Wars.

I also said a good chunk, not all. Me lambasting a segment of Star Wars fans doesn't mean I am lambasting everybody.

 

[ArGarBarGar]

For the record, I think there are a lot of reasonable interpretations as to whether it made sense for Luke to ignore everyone. That's the thing with trauma. It affects people in different ways.

I also think there are few, if any, reasonable justifications for Luke Skywalker ignoring genocide that would have satisfied the majority of Star Wars fans.

 

[bleedblue1223]

I get that, but there was a lot happening and a lot of time between The Return of the Jedi and the return of Luke, why wouldn't he have changed somewhat? It's kind of out of character from him to have stayed stranded on an island, away from the fight and from his friends. More importantly, there was 3 OT films that you based your construction of the character on, but TLJ is their official sequel and the continuity of the same character, so why wouldn't you re-construct your knowledge of the character with these new elements? Why would "a big SW nut"'s idea of what should have been be more credible than what actually is?

Yes, characters/people change over time. Luke sacrificing everything to help his family and friends has always been core to himself, seeing the good has always been core. If you are going to make that big of a change, then it should be displayed on-screen, we still haven't seen that development. Now granted, JJ set this up to be an issue, but RJ continued it.

 

[bleedblue1223]

Mark Hamill isn't infallible just because he played a character on Star Wars.

I also said a good chunk, not all. Me lambasting a segment of Star Wars fans doesn't mean I am lambasting everybody.

No s***, that's why I said it doesn't make either right or wrong. RJ's intention was to be controversial and he achieved that.

Never said you meant all, but we've discussed this enough for both of us to know who you are referring to. I did get a chuckle out of the use of objectively though, well done.

 

[bleedblue1223]

For the record, I think there are a lot of reasonable interpretations as to whether it made sense for Luke to ignore everyone. That's the thing with trauma. It affects people in different ways.

I also think there are few, if any, reasonable justifications for Luke Skywalker ignoring genocide that would have satisfied the majority of Star Wars fans.

We've seen Luke respond to trauma many times already. When his Aunt and Uncle were incinerated, Obi-Wan die, his defeat to Vader and learning of the truth, his test in the cave, realizing that it was a trap in ROTJ. Now sure, maybe this trauma finally broke him, but we never saw it. This trauma also was similar to his traumas with Vader, the difference being that Ben was still conflicted with the light and dark, where only Luke believed that there was still light in Vader.

 

[bleedblue1223]

I'll say this, if JJ or RJ explained Luke's fall better, it probably would've been less controversial. Take Harry Potter and the major changes that JK did to Dumbledore and Snape. Without context, it would've seem crazy, but she added nuance to the characters that for years we thought were 1 way.

 

[Pranzo Oltranzista]

Yes, characters/people change over time. Luke sacrificing everything to help his family and friends has always been core to himself, seeing the good has always been core. If you are going to make that big of a change, then it should be displayed on-screen, we still haven't seen that development. Now granted, JJ set this up to be an issue, but RJ continued it.

I get that people might think it's a bad film, I think most films are crap, not just most SW films. I think it's absolutely normal that a film you've find amazingly satisfying as a 6-7-8-9 years old (talking about myself) doesn't seem as fulfilling at 40+. On that level, I don't think the new trilogy had any chance with the true core SW fans - most of them just don't realize the OT was kiddie flicks that they enjoyed as kids. The prequels, especially the first one, went on full kiddie flick and that just couldn't work with fans who were now adults. I think the new trilogy does a good job of avoiding the too-openly kiddie stuff (like the Ewoks), while maintaining the fantasy tone. Rogue One and TLJ went three steps ahead and are (IMO) a lot more mature works, especially TLJ. And one of the things I think were interesting in it was the deconstruction of the perfect hero figure, and the somewhat blurred out line between good and evil.

 

[bleedblue1223]

I get that people might think it's a bad film, I think most films are crap, not just most SW films. I think it's absolutely normal that a film you've find amazingly satisfying as a 6-7-8-9 years old (talking about myself) doesn't seem as fulfilling at 40+. On that level, I don't think the new trilogy had any chance with the true core SW fans - most of them just don't realize the OT was kiddie flicks that they enjoyed as kids. The prequels, especially the first one, went on full kiddie flick and that just couldn't work with fans who were now adults. I think the new trilogy does a good job of avoiding the too-openly kiddie stuff (like the Ewoks), while maintaining the fantasy tone. Rogue One and TLJ went three steps ahead and are (IMO) a lot more mature works, especially TLJ. And one of the things I think were interesting in it was the deconstruction of the perfect hero figure, and the somewhat blurred out line between good and evil.

The only kiddie stuff in the OT were the ewoks. In ANH, Luke's aunt and uncle were incinerated, and Obi-Wan chopped a guys arm off and they showed the bloody arm. It ultimately appealed to all age groups.

 

[Pranzo Oltranzista]

The only kiddie stuff in the OT were the ewoks. In ANH, Luke's aunt and uncle were incinerated, and Obi-Wan chopped a guys arm off and they showed the bloody arm. It ultimately appealed to all age groups.

Oh...

Well, I'll give you that there was a pretty high volume of violence and sex innuendos in them, but it was another era. The Ewoks are the most blatant kiddie stuff from the OT, just like JarJar is for the prequels, but the whole thing was pretty much a children tale. It's not too hard to recognize archetypes similar to those you'd find in The Wizard of Oz other such things, and well, and the pew-pews and lightsaber stuff really wasn't adult oriented (I don't recall any adult from my childhood being fans of SW). And well, the toys...

 

[bleedblue1223]

Oh...

Well, I'll give you that there was a pretty high volume of violence and sex innuendos in them, but it was another era. The Ewoks are the most blatant kiddie stuff from the OT, just like JarJar is for the prequels, but the whole thing was pretty much a children tale. It's not too hard to recognize archetypes similar to those you'd find in The Wizard of Oz other such things, and well, and the pew-pews and lightsaber stuff really wasn't adult oriented (I don't recall any adult from my childhood being fans of SW). And well, the toys...

I mean, when it was released, adults were all about it, they stayed fans, past it onto their kids, and those kids remained fans when they were adults. It was originally catered to all ages, and the main parts of the movies have always been like that, where some movies had more details that kids could enjoy compared to others, that's what helped make it as big as it is.

And yeah, it's always been a very simple tale, but that doesn't make it kid content. Lots of content intended for adults is very simple in nature.

Now if you enjoy TLJ, then great more power to you, plenty of others love it to. I just think it's silly to act like SW has always been kiddie content to discredit people that don't like it.

 

[x Tame Impala]

We've seen Luke respond to trauma many times already. When his Aunt and Uncle were incinerated, Obi-Wan die, his defeat to Vader and learning of the truth, his test in the cave, realizing that it was a trap in ROTJ. Now sure, maybe this trauma finally broke him, but we never saw it. This trauma also was similar to his trauma's with Vader, the difference being that Ben was still conflicted with the light and dark, where only Luke believed that there was still light in Vader.

“Whatever, I’m done talking about this anyway”

-Argarbargar

 

[Pranzo Oltranzista]

I mean, when it was released, adults were all about it, they stayed fans, past it onto their kids, and those kids remained fans when they were adults. It was originally catered to all ages, and the main parts of the movies have always been like that, where some movies had more details that kids could enjoy compared to others, that's what helped make it as big as it is.

And yeah, it's always been a very simple tale, but that doesn't make it kid content. Lots of content intended for adults is very simple in nature.

Now if you enjoy TLJ, then great more power to you, plenty of others love it to. I just think it's silly to act like SW has always been kiddie content to discredit people that don't like it.

I think that's the main problem with most hardcore SW fans. You just won't admit that the OT was children oriented and thus you can't understand why everything that came afterward felt unsatisfying. I'm not trying to discredit anybody here, we're not talking about anything that I really care about.

Please take a minute to read this:

https://www.nottingham.ac.uk/scope/documents/2001/december-2001/kramer.pdf

It's a pretty interesting read, one that might make you reconsider your understanding of what the OT was. No, it was not originally catered to all ages, and no adults were not all about it. It consciously was made as a kiddie flick, as a fairytale.

"I don't think it's any more kid-friendly than any of the other Star Wars films", he said. "Star Wars is basically a serial for children - that's what it's always been"
- George Lucas (talking about The Phantom Menace)​

 

[bleedblue1223]

I think that's the main problem with most hardcore SW fans. You just won't admit that the OT was children oriented and thus you can't understand why everything that came afterward felt unsatisfying. I'm not trying to discredit anybody here, we're not talking about anything that I really care about.

Please take a minute to read this:

https://www.nottingham.ac.uk/scope/documents/2001/december-2001/kramer.pdf

It's a pretty interesting read, one that might make you reconsider your understanding of what the OT was. No, it was not originally catered to all ages, and no adults were not all about it. It consciously was made as a kiddie flick, as a fairytale.

"I don't think it's any more kid-friendly than any of the otherStar Warsfilms", he said. "Star Warsis basically a serial for children - that'swhat it's always been"
- George Lucas (talking about The Phantom Menace)​

Sure, Lucas may have originally envisioned it for kids, but when it was released, adults flocked to it, and it appealed to all ages. We aren't talking about Toy Story here. I never even said that everything after my childhood in SW has felt unsatisfying, so not sure why you are implying that.

If you don't care about this, then why are you trying to convince SW fans that they should accept it's kiddie content.

 

[Pranzo Oltranzista]

Sure, Lucas may have originally envisioned it for kids, but when it was released, adults flocked to it, and it appealed to all ages. We aren't talking about Toy Story here. I never even said that everything after my childhood in SW has felt unsatisfying, so not sure why you are implying that.

If you don't care about this, then why are you trying to convince SW fans that they should accept it's kiddie content.

I see you took the time to read the text. And who am I trying to convince? I'm just stating facts.

But yeah, why, that's a good question.

 

[bleedblue1223]

I see you took the time to read the text. And who am I trying to convince? I'm just stating facts.

But yeah, why, that's a good question.

I've read it before. I know what George's original intentions were, I know the purpose behind ewoks and Jar-Jar and marketing campaign, I know all about the toys. Star Wars has always appealed to people of all ages.

 

[ArGarBarGar]

“Whatever, I’m done talking about this anyway”

-Argarbargar

"Just when I thought I was out, they pull me back in."

-Luke Skywalker, probably.