Movies: Rise of Skywalker [SPOILER] Edition - II

Osprey

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Or the wreckage fell part.

That's the other thing that I was going to mention. It's been sitting on an ocean floor with tidal waves crashing into it for, presumably, a decade or two or three since the knife was made and, in all of that time, it hasn't shifted any.
 

Osprey

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Did they ever mention when the dagger was created? I cant recall anything about its origins

I don't recall much in the movie, but starwars.fandom.com has this:
The Blade of Ochi of Bestoon, or simply Ochi's blade, was a knife owned by the Sith cultist and assassin, Ochi of Bestoon.
The Sith assassin and relic hunter Ochi used this melee weapon to kill many, including the Force-sensitive Rey's father and mother. As a result of such deeds of murder, the Sith dagger resonated in the Force with the evil imbued within, thus shocking Rey upon the human Jedi-aspirant's touch.
Blade of Ochi of Bestoon
A member of the Sith Eternal cult devoted to following Sidious, Ochi was tasked with the retrieval of Sidious' granddaughter, Rey, from her mother and father, the son of the Sith Lord himself. Wielding a dagger, Ochi eventually tracked down his master's son and daughter-in-law only to discover they had anticipated this scenario and had hidden her. Rey was apparently left with junk boss Unkar Plutt on the planet Jakku as a part of this contingency. After refusing to surrender their daughter's location, Ochi used his dagger to murder them both.

Pasaana

Sometime after killing Rey's parents, Ochi attracted the attention of Jedi Luke Skywalker, who was searching for the Sith world of Exegol, site of Sidious's secret Sith base and home to his devotees. Skywalker was seeking a rumored "key" to Exegol and, alongside General Lando Calrissian, tracked Ochi to the desert world of Pasaana. Ochi had come to their attention after bragging in a cantina about having a clue to the location of the Emperor's wayfinder, saying he had the coordinates inscribed. The two pursued the Jedi Hunter hoping to gain information, but before they could arrive on Pasaana, Ochi was trapped in sinking sands of the Shifting Mires, dying in the deep caverns below. The trail went cold. What exact fate befell Ochi was unknown, but his bones were picked clean by gouge-beetles.
Ochi

The clues in the movie align with that. When Rey and company fall down into the caverns, they find an "old" speeder and Rey senses from the dagger that "horrible things have happened with this" (yeah, like your parents being murdered with it).

Anyways, we can judge from all of that that the knife had been laying in those caverns for at least 10 years, probably closer to 15 , and who knows how much longer before that it was actually created.
 
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ArGarBarGar

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The whole 'the Death Star was in the perfect spot for the dagger to work' flaw really doesn't bother me on its own, since it is a convenient way to get Rey onto the ship and her stumbling around trying to figure out the perfect spot to put it would have been an unnecessary waste of screentime. It comes across as more silly with the rest of the movie.
 

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It comes across as more silly with the rest of the movie.

As long as a movie is good, people are more willing to accept silly parts of a movie. There’s plenty of things that make no sense in really good/really popular movies that people overlook because overall the movie was still entertaining and people are still immersed in the experience. It’s why I never liked “Cinema Sins”. They count as many nitpicks as they can and pass it off as a quality YouTube video.

If RoS didn’t have so many other silly things that ruin the immersion, the dagger bit wouldn’t be nearly as noticeable.
 

bleedblue1223

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As long as a movie is good, people are more willing to accept silly parts of a movie. There’s plenty of things that make no sense in really good/really popular movies that people overlook because overall the movie was still entertaining and people are still immersed in the experience. It’s why I never liked “Cinema Sins”. They count as many nitpicks as they can and pass it off as a quality YouTube video.

If RoS didn’t have so many other silly things that ruin the immersion, the dagger bit wouldn’t be nearly as noticeable.
Yeah, I agree about Cinema Sins. And you are right, ROS just doesn't get that benefit of the doubt on moments like that. Same with how they used the Falcon in that scene, she could've just been dropped off instead of going through the water. Is it really a problem in the movie, no, but it's just another silly part of characters not choosing the most logical route.
 
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ArGarBarGar

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I also wish Poe and Finn actually got together (or at least leave the option open), instead of them having female possible love interests shoe-horned into the film because reasons. And they tried to make up for it by having two minor female characters kissing in the background of a busy scene towards the end.
 

bleedblue1223

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None of the relationships worked for me. Finn/Poe had a decent bromance in TFA to think it could be a Luke/Han or Han/Lando, and they showed that chemistry in TROS. Finn and Rey felt like Luke and Leia before we knew they were siblings, Finn clearly was into Rey, but it wasn't reciprocated. Everything else was forced and didn't work.
 
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Blender

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As long as a movie is good, people are more willing to accept silly parts of a movie. There’s plenty of things that make no sense in really good/really popular movies that people overlook because overall the movie was still entertaining and people are still immersed in the experience. It’s why I never liked “Cinema Sins”. They count as many nitpicks as they can and pass it off as a quality YouTube video.

If RoS didn’t have so many other silly things that ruin the immersion, the dagger bit wouldn’t be nearly as noticeable.
It also really depends on the type of inconsistency that happens in a movie and how it fits into "suspension of disbelief". A fictional world doesn't need to match the laws of our universe, but it needs to be logically consistent with itself. Movies like Rise of Skywalker fall apart so badly not because there are silly parts in it that aren't "realistic", but because it's full of silly parts that don't even align with the movie and the universe the movie is set in.
 

Osprey

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The whole 'the Death Star was in the perfect spot for the dagger to work' flaw really doesn't bother me on its own, since it is a convenient way to get Rey onto the ship and her stumbling around trying to figure out the perfect spot to put it would have been an unnecessary waste of screentime. It comes across as more silly with the rest of the movie.

Yeah, I was going to rip that aspect, but then watched the scene again and noticed that the Death Star is so far away that you could probably go half a mile up or down the coast and still have it more or less align. Even if not, there are so many other problems with the scene that that probably ranks on the lower end of silliness.

As long as a movie is good, people are more willing to accept silly parts of a movie. There’s plenty of things that make no sense in really good/really popular movies that people overlook because overall the movie was still entertaining and people are still immersed in the experience. It’s why I never liked “Cinema Sins”. They count as many nitpicks as they can and pass it off as a quality YouTube video.

If RoS didn’t have so many other silly things that ruin the immersion, the dagger bit wouldn’t be nearly as noticeable.

I was thinking earlier that the dagger is kind of similar to some parts of the first three Indiana Jones movies (in which several things like object, location and time of day came together to show the way to an artifact), but those movies were really good, so those parts that were maybe a bit silly if you really thought about them were easier to forgive.
 
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Seedtype

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The discussions for 8 are just so tired at this point. We all know where each other stand, and opinions aren't going to be changed now, so what's the point. There really isn't much room for interesting agree to disagree discussions.

I feel like you can just ignore the sequel trilogy and it will simply go away. I seriously doubt there is going to be any more major projects with any of these characters or story.
It's not like the prequels where it was anticipated for a long time. Plus the special editions changes that are apart of the OT now(Christensen and JarJar in ROTJ...).(And at least the prequels get a lot of help with Clone Wars)

The dagger lining up perfectly with the Death Star wreckage still gets me.

Yeah that thing is weird. For me I find the vision of Dark Rey odd. Why does she have that double bladed lightsaber? It's such a specific thing in a random vision...
 

Osprey

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Yeah that thing is weird. For me I find the vision of Dark Rey odd. Why does she have that double bladed lightsaber? It's such a specific thing in a random vision...

I think that she has it simply because Abrams thought that fans would find it cool. It's a form of fan service, IMO. He gave Kylo a unique and "cool" lightsaber design, as well.
 
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ArGarBarGar

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At least you can justify the design for Kylo Ren (he is a Sith fanboy now and wants a cool Sith weapon, even if it isn't entirely well-made or practical). What is the justification for a "Dark" Rey having a weird new lightsaber that we only see for a few minutes?

It is a disjointed scene that comes across as moreso when you add in the teeth and the lightsaber. It sticks out like a sore thumb.
 

bleedblue1223

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Why not, it was just something to look cool and in other concepts she had a double-bladed saber to mimic her staff that she carried. Now, the design is pretty impractical, but it's also just a vision. Why would she not have a new red saber if she is seeing the Empress version of herself?

Why would Luke's face be under Vader's mask?
 

Seedtype

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Why not, it was just something to look cool and in other concepts she had a double-bladed saber to mimic her staff that she carried. Now, the design is pretty impractical, but it's also just a vision. Why would she not have a new red saber if she is seeing the Empress version of herself?

Why would Luke's face be under Vader's mask?


To show if Luke isn't careful he could end up being like Vader, i.e. fall to the dark side.
Edit: also maybe because Vader is his father?

It's just I think the Dark Rey lightsaber is just really random. The goofy teeth are at least 'I'm so Evil!' teeth.
 

ArGarBarGar

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Why not, it was just something to look cool and in other concepts she had a double-bladed saber to mimic her staff that she carried. Now, the design is pretty impractical, but it's also just a vision. Why would she not have a new red saber if she is seeing the Empress version of herself?
A red saber, sure. A red saber that swings into a double-saber with a hinge? That is more of a divergence from regular Rey. And the fact it only shows up for a few minutes makes it feel more jarring.

Why would Luke's face be under Vader's mask?
This isn't at all comparable, because I'm not contesting the idea of a "dark" version of someone showing up or them showing up in garb related to another character or ideology. Luke's vision in ESB speaks to the idea of him striking down Vader and possibly becoming him in the process, and I thought this was a clear and universally held understanding of the scene. I do not see why you would compare this to what I am discussing.
 

bleedblue1223

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Yes, obviously the Luke/Vader part was rhetorical. The Dark Rey vision was part of what scared her when she learned she's a Palpatine, so I don't see how it doesn't make sense. It's supposed to make her think that's her destiny, to be whether it's in her head of what she thinks the evil is or something that Palpatine planted for her or however it came to be.

If we think the teeth part is silly or the saber is silly, then Luke being in Vader's mask is silly.

Maybe it's just a silly thing that didn't bother me though.
 
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Blender

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Rey should have had a double-bladed lightsaber from the start, or even a lightsaber with a really long handle, and kept it through all 3 movies. She was shown to be a skilled fighter with a pole weapon, having a lightsaber pole weapon was the natural choice for her and they couldn't even get that right.
 

bleedblue1223

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Rey should have had a double-bladed lightsaber from the start, or even a lightsaber with a really long handle, and kept it through all 3 movies. She was shown to be a skilled fighter with a pole weapon, having a lightsaber pole weapon was the natural choice for her and they couldn't even get that right.
Yeah, that's why it felt natural to me.
 

Shockmaster

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Rey should have had a double-bladed lightsaber from the start, or even a lightsaber with a really long handle, and kept it through all 3 movies. She was shown to be a skilled fighter with a pole weapon, having a lightsaber pole weapon was the natural choice for her and they couldn't even get that right.

Yeah, but they probably didn't give Rey a double-bladed lightsaber because Disney was trying to distance itself from prequel references, even if certain references would have made sense.
 

BigBadBruins7708

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At least you can justify the design for Kylo Ren (he is a Sith fanboy now and wants a cool Sith weapon, even if it isn't entirely well-made or practical). What is the justification for a "Dark" Rey having a weird new lightsaber that we only see for a few minutes?

It is a disjointed scene that comes across as moreso when you add in the teeth and the lightsaber. It sticks out like a sore thumb.

It's kinda simple really

Her weapon all through her life was the staff. It's what she knows best and is most skilled in.

The lightsaber of her vision is just a staff version of a lightsaber.

They made it fold to either make it look practical to carry or to avoid a double ended lightsaber since Darth Maul already claimed that look
 

ArGarBarGar

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It's kinda simple really

Her weapon all through her life was the staff. It's what she knows best and is most skilled in.

The lightsaber of her vision is just a staff version of a lightsaber.

They made it fold to either make it look practical to carry or to avoid a double ended lightsaber since Darth Maul already claimed that look
To me that is a big stretch. I would be be able to more easily accept that explanation as a reasonable writing choice except for the fact it isn't just a staff but a double-sided lightsaber which rotates on a hinge in the middle, which further differentiates itself from anything Rey has ever weilded.

And again, from a narrative standpoint it doesn't properly connect itself with really anything regarding Rey. Rey was never at risk to turn to the dark side and never had the same character issues Luke had (and to try and create a similar connection between this scene and Luke's scene in ESB comes across as fundamentally misunderstanding the differences between the two characters).

It's an aspect of the film that needed fleshing out, which adds to other aspects of the film that I believe needed fleshing out.

Rey should have had a double-bladed lightsaber from the start, or even a lightsaber with a really long handle, and kept it through all 3 movies. She was shown to be a skilled fighter with a pole weapon, having a lightsaber pole weapon was the natural choice for her and they couldn't even get that right.
I wonder how the story in TFA would have changed if it wasn't Luke's lightsaber that she discovered but Darth Maul's. At least with that you could write around her identity as a Palpatine later and at least develop something compelling other than "Rey might be Luke's daughter/neice/etc. because she found a lightsaber and we won't tell you which" which JJ threw at us.

If we think the teeth part is silly or the saber is silly, then Luke being in Vader's mask is silly.
I just believe that Luke being in Vader's mask represents a specific idea about Luke's character and the story, while Rey having sharp teeth doesn't represent anything as far as I can tell.
 

Blender

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I wonder how the story in TFA would have changed if it wasn't Luke's lightsaber that she discovered but Darth Maul's. At least with that you could write around her identity as a Palpatine later and at least develop something compelling other than "Rey might be Luke's daughter/neice/etc. because she found a lightsaber and we won't tell you which" which JJ threw at us.
Judging by how the whole story around her ancestry went, I'm not sure they really had any kind of plan for her. JJ Abrams has never been good at world building or character development, so TFA really is just a paint by numbers action adventure film which progresses from one set piece scene to another. It's the type of shallow movie he does well because when you're sitting there watching it usually you're entertained enough to not really notice the flaws, but rarely does he make movies that are very memorable long term. TLJ at least tried to do some world building and character development, even if not all of it worked and even the stuff that did seemingly got tossed aside in RoS. I get why they gave her Luke's lightsaber in TFA since they wanted to set up her returning it to Luke at the end, but it left the whole thing a bit of a mess. She was far too skilled with Luke's lightsaber despite having no experience with a sword, where if she had gotten her hands on a polearm lightsaber (Darth Maul's if you said, but it didn't even need a named origin), her being instantly good with it would make a lot of sense and fit the story much better. Here you would have someone who was skilled fighting with a polearm suddenly given a very powerful lightsaber and developing force powers she didn't know she had and can't really control, so you'd have a force user who was more skilled and powerful than she was ready for suddenly having power she has never had before while also being tempted to the dark side as well in order to access even more power. Luke's reluctance to train her at the start of TLJ would have made a lot more sense as well since he would have seen her as an obvious threat and an obvious candidate to slide into evil chasing power she doesn't understand. What we got had some of these ideas in there, but they were so poorly executed.
 
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bleedblue1223

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You can say Rey never had a chance at turning to the dark side, but Luke really didn't either. The only character that we've seen in the movies where it was clear a turn was inevitable was Anakin after his mom died. Luke and Rey were just 2 powerful force-users that happened to be related to evil individuals.
 

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