Movies: Rise of Skywalker [SPOILER] Edition - II

Osprey

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I wonder how the story in TFA would have changed if it wasn't Luke's lightsaber that she discovered but Darth Maul's. At least with that you could write around her identity as a Palpatine later and at least develop something compelling other than "Rey might be Luke's daughter/neice/etc. because she found a lightsaber and we won't tell you which" which JJ threw at us.

It's not just that she "found" Luke's lightsaber. Luke's lightsaber wanted her to find it. It called to her. When we suspected that she was going to turn out to be a Skywalker, that made some sense. Where's the sense in Luke's lightsaber calling out to the granddaughter of Palpatine?

It could've been interesting to have Sith instruments call out to her over the course of the trilogy instead of light side ones. She could've discovered Darth Maul's lightsaber instead of Luke's, as you suggested, and her discovery of Ochi's dagger would've had a better explanation. We would've still known that there was no chance of her turning to the dark side, but being drawn to all of these Sith weapons and then using them to defeat the Sith could've added a layer of complexity to the narrative and differentiated it from the OT.
 
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Mr Fahrenheit

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You can say Rey never had a chance at turning to the dark side, but Luke really didn't either. The only character that we've seen in the movies where it was clear a turn was inevitable was Anakin after his mom died. Luke and Rey were just 2 powerful force-users that happened to be related to evil individuals.

I dont think it was about whether or not Luke would turn but more about his defiance and resistance to the Emperor and the dark side; saving his father, willing to die for his cause and beliefs

I dont think adults could watch the OT for the first time and think Luke might fall to the dark side, at least watching it now, not sure about during its original release, just like you knew Rey wouldnt
 

bleedblue1223

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I dont think it was about whether or not Luke would turn but more about his defiance and resistance to the Emperor and the dark side; saving his father, willing to die for his cause and beliefs

I dont think adults could watch the OT for the first time and think Luke might fall to the dark side, at least watching it now, not sure about during its original release, just like you knew Rey wouldnt
That was my takeaway from ArGarBarGar's comment. Maybe they meant to say that Luke had different character issues, but still wasn't at risk of turning, but seeing his face in Vader's mask was meant to show him that if he isn't careful, if he doesn't follow the right path, then the darkside is his future. I don't think it was ever convincing because he really never displayed any dark side tendencies.
 

Mr Fahrenheit

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That was my takeaway from ArGarBarGar's comment. Maybe they meant to say that Luke had different character issues, but still wasn't at risk of turning, but seeing his face in Vader's mask was meant to show him that if he isn't careful, if he doesn't follow the right path, then the darkside is his future. I don't think it was ever convincing because he really never displayed any dark side tendencies.

In the story he is at risk for turning, very much so and Lucas was trying to make you believe but as a cinema viewer you would know it wouldnt happen. The potential for a fall was in Yoda's and Obi-Wan's warnings that he wasnt ready to face Vader in ESB then his fighting with anger in RotJ, so you did have reasons to believe it could happen even if deep down you knew it wouldnt
 

bleedblue1223

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In the story he is at risk for turning, very much so and Lucas was trying to make you believe but as a cinema viewer you would know it wouldnt happen. The potential for a fall was in Yoda's and Obi-Wan's warnings that he wasnt ready to face Vader in ESB then his fighting with anger in RotJ, so you did have reasons to believe it could happen even if deep down you knew it wouldnt
Then I suppose it does parallel with Rey, but that's more of a response to ArGarBarGar than you. To me neither are at risk because it's the motivation behind the fight. They aren't fighting to gain power, even if they had anger in them, they were fighting for others.
 

Osprey

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In the story he is at risk for turning, very much so and Lucas was trying to make you believe but as a cinema viewer you would know it wouldnt happen. The potential for a fall was in Yoda's and Obi-Wan's warnings that he wasnt ready to face Vader in ESB then his fighting with anger in RotJ, so you did have reasons to believe it could happen even if deep down you knew it wouldnt

Also, expectations were very different in the early 80s. Movies were a lot darker then--look at ESB, for starters--so a dark turn wasn't something that could be completely ruled out. Maybe Luke would turn and join his father and then, like his father, turn back to the good side at the very end. Audiences didn't have the knowledge of what Star Wars is that we have today and didn't know what Lucas was going to cook up. In contrast, we had a pretty good idea of how this sequel trilogy was going to play out (i.e. Rey would never turn, but Kylo would at the very end), since we knew that it was largely remaking the OT and Disney was behind it. Of course Disney, which has specialized in movies about perfect heroes for 80 years, wasn't going to have Rey turn. In the early 80s, who knew what Lucas, a guy who had made only four movies at that point--two optimistic, but two bleak--was going to do. You can identify parallels between the trilogies, but you also need to consider the very different times that they were released in, IMO.
 

johnjm22

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I think it would have been a more interesting story if Rey turned to the dark side, but the problem is we've seen that story before. We saw it with Anakin.

And if she's the good Jedi that defeats the bad guys, well we've seen that story before too. With Luke.

That's why the real problem with this trilogy was TFA; it gave us the same setup we've seen before which limited the story options moving forward.

I think part of the reason the Mandalorian works is because it's a new story in the SW universe we haven't seen before. It also makes more sense chronologically with the OT than the new trilogy did.
 
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MadDevil

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Not that I think it would have "saved" the sequel trilogy, but I do wonder if instead of the Palpatine route they'd just committed to Kylo going full Sith and being the big bad of the final movie if it would have been a more satisfying ending (and I'm one of the ones who didn't have that much of a problem with the return of old Sheev).

It felt in TFA like we were going to get the duality of Kylo rising in the dark while Rey rises in the light with an ultimate showdown between them to end the trilogy. I feel like that at least would have been a more coherent story than the "Oh shit they didn't like TLJ! We better lean on nostalgia again!" approach they ultimately went with for TROS.
 
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ArGarBarGar

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The "turn to the dark side" wasn't just about what you explicitly believed (in terms of the OT) but your actions and your emotions.

Luke Skywalker is very much driven by emotion, as we saw in the throne room scene where he didn't want to fight his father but was compelled to because that same father threatened the well-being (at least in terms of the light side) of someone he cared about. From that point on he became emotional and almost succummed to the dark side. Why do I assert that? Because as soon as he makes lasting damage on Vader he recoils and throws away his lightsaber, realizing that his actions would have led him down a path to the dark side. This connects to the idea of him slaying Vader and thus becoming him.

If Luke strikes Vader down, he becomes a version of him and a lackey of Palpatine. I don't think this has been disputed. Thus the connection between the story of ROTJ and Luke's vision in ESB is reasonable.

We cannot make a similar connection with "dark Rey" in RoS, or at least I have not seen such a connection.
 
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Shockmaster

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I think it would have been a more interesting story if Rey turned to the dark side, but the problem is we've seen that story before. We saw it with Anakin.

And if she's the good Jedi that defeats the bad guys, well we've seen that story before too. With Luke.

That's why the real problem with this trilogy was TFA; it gave us the same setup we've seen before which limited the story options moving forward.

I think part of the reason the Mandalorian works is because it's a new story in the SW universe we haven't seen before. It also makes more sense chronologically with the OT than the new trilogy did.

That was part of the nostalgia attempt. I bet Disney was worried that if they instead started off Episode VII with a new Republic and a new Jedi Order under Luke that it would too much resemble the prequels. So they went with rehashing the rebels vs. empire plotline.
 

bleedblue1223

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The "turn to the dark side" wasn't just about what you explicitly believed (in terms of the OT) but your actions and your emotions.

Luke Skywalker is very much driven by emotion, as we saw in the throne room scene where he didn't want to fight his father but was compelled to because that same father threatened the well-being (at least in terms of the light side) of someone he cared about. From that point on he became emotional and almost succummed to the dark side. Why do I assert that? Because as soon as he makes lasting damage on Vader he recoils and throws away his lightsaber, realizing that his actions would have led him down a path to the dark side. This connects to the idea of him slaying Vader and thus becoming him.

If Luke strikes Vader down, he becomes a version of him and a lackey of Palpatine. I don't think this has been disputed. Thus the connection between the story of ROTJ and Luke's vision in ESB is reasonable.

We cannot make a similar connection with "dark Rey" in RoS, or at least I have not seen such a connection.
Rey definitely fought with emotion in a similar way. In TFA when she fought Kylo, in TLJ when she left Luke to take on Snoke and naively believed that Kylo would join her, and when she "killed" Kylo in TROS. Luke Empire when he left Yoda and Obi-Wan and in the throne room like you mentioned. The combo of learning of being a Palpatine, seeing Dark Rey, and killing Kylo, and sensing Leia's death, is what made her want to exile herself because she thought she was going dark because it's in her nature. Luke taught her to confront her fear.

I don't think it's as simple as striking Vader down makes him into a Vader and lackey of Palp, but it starts down that path. Anakin didn't become a lackey of Palp because he struck Dooku down, just how Mace wouldn't have went dark if he struck Palp down.
 

ArGarBarGar

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I think you are comparing many things which are not at all comparable and missing the general theme of what I am talking about (Luke's emotion and rage leading him down a path to the dark side, and the connection between Luke's vision in ESB and him almost killing his father out of fear/anger in ROTJ).

Rey mortally wounding Kylo Ren then healing him after learning about Leia is not at all in the same ballpark, and does not connect to her vision on the Death Star.

Anakin killing Dooku despite having reservations about it is not comparable either. The better comparable is when Anakin impulsively wounds Mace Windu (leading to his death) out of fear for his wife's well-being, then succumbing to the dark side immediately after.
 

K Fleur

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The best Star Wars movie to come out in almost 40 years barely had any Jedi or Sith in it at all. Outside of the last 5 minutes it had no lightsabers also.
 
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bleedblue1223

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I don't see how you can say there isn't a connection between the events of Rey learning of her Palpatine connection, seeing Dark Rey, Kylo telling her the dark side is in her nature and to join him to defeat Palp, then killing Kylo which forced Leia to sacrifice herself, and her wanting to exile herself because of all of it. If it wasn't for the dark side connection in her, she wouldn't have had that type of reaction.

I guess I just don't understand the gymnastics just to prove that the dark Rey scene was pointless and didn't fit. It's one thing to say the teeth or the type of saber were silly, but those are really inconsequential. It's her knowing that she is a Palpatine, the fear that dark Rey is supposedly her destiny, but getting help from Luke to face that fear and reject it. She's always struggled with her identity, that's why the scene is important because she just learned what her identity is.

Anakin killed Mace for power, that's not comparable to Luke or Rey.
 

ArGarBarGar

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Anakin killed Mace for power, that's not comparable to Luke or Rey.
Can you demonstrate this?

If you are talking about "the power to save Padme", that doesn't discount the whole "impulsive decision to save those he loves" thing that compares to Luke in ROTJ.
 

bleedblue1223

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Can you demonstrate this?

If you are talking about "the power to save Padme", that doesn't discount the whole "impulsive decision to save those he loves" thing that compares to Luke in ROTJ.
Anakin wanted to kill Mace to keep Palpatine alive to gain power from him. Luke and Rey's motivation for going after Snoke/Kylo/Palpatine/Vader were always just to prevent them from killing people they cared about or the galaxy as a whole. Anakin is trying to gain something for himself, Luke and Rey aren't. If Luke/Rey didn't go after those people, then we'd be left with Luke from TLJ who decided to let the galaxy fend for itself.
 

ArGarBarGar

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Anakin wanted to kill Mace to keep Palpatine alive to gain power from him. Luke and Rey's motivation for going after Snoke/Kylo/Palpatine/Vader were always just to prevent them from killing people they cared about or the galaxy as a whole. Anakin is trying to gain something for himself, Luke and Rey aren't. If Luke/Rey didn't go after those people, then we'd be left with Luke from TLJ who decided to let the galaxy fend for itself.
Anakin is trying to gain something to save Padme. He then acts on impulse in an effort to save her (by sparing Palpatine who says he has the tools to spare her). To me that is a distinction without much of a difference.

In that same scene after Anakin killed Mace Windu, he pleads with Palpatine to help him save Padme's life. If she was not in danger, he would not have been as concerned about saving Palpatine and acting rashly to stop Mace from killing him.
 

bleedblue1223

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Anakin is trying to gain something to save Padme. He then acts on impulse in an effort to save her (by sparing Palpatine who says he has the tools to spare her). To me that is a distinction without much of a difference.

In that same scene after Anakin killed Mace Windu, he pleads with Palpatine to help him save Padme's life. If she was not in danger, he would not have been as concerned about saving Palpatine and acting rashly to stop Mace from killing him.
He is wanting to gain a power from Palpatine, someone who he knows is a Sith Lord and has caused the deaths of millions/billions. Anakin also wants that power for selfish reasons. It's not to gain a power to save many people, it's just for Padme and to save her from natural causes. Luke and Rey are not looking to gain a power from one of the evil individuals, and they aren't looking to save just some specific individual, it's for the galaxy as a whole, and to save them from evil individuals. That's a big difference.
 

ArGarBarGar

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He is wanting to gain a power from Palpatine, someone who he knows is a Sith Lord and has caused the deaths of millions/billions. Anakin also wants that power for selfish reasons. It's not to gain a power to save many people, it's just for Padme. Luke and Rey are not looking to gain a power for one of the evil individuals, and they aren't looking to save just some specific individual, it's for the galaxy as a whole. That's a big difference.
Luke was absolutely looking to save a specific individual when he attacks Vader in ROTJ. Prior to the moment he threatens Leia Luke is refusing to engage him despite the danger he is to the galaxy at that moment in time. Both acts of aggression are out of impulse, and both are caused due to the looming threat of someone they care about. These are the major themes of those specific moments in both ROTJ and ROTS.

I'm not even talking about Rey, because she isn't relevant in this part of the discussion.
 

bleedblue1223

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Luke was absolutely looking to save a specific individual when he attacks Vader in ROTJ. Prior to the moment he threatens Leia Luke is refusing to engage him despite the danger he is to the galaxy at that moment in time. Both acts of aggression are out of impulse, and both are caused due to the looming threat of someone they care about. These are the major themes of those specific moments in both ROTJ and ROTS.

I'm not even talking about Rey, because she isn't relevant in this part of the discussion.
Fighting with emotion doesn't make someone turn dark. It's that dogmatic view of the Jedi that helped lead to their downfall. Luke still isn't trying to gain a power and he isn't there fighting for only Leia, even if Vader got a reaction out of him. When he went to challenge them, it wasn't for Leia.

I mean this whole thing started from Rey's vision and the dynamics between the 3. The whole segment from learning of her Palp connection to her exile was part of her Jedi Trials.
 

ArGarBarGar

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Fighting with emotion doesn't make someone turn dark.
To be clear, this isn't what I said.

Luke still isn't trying to gain a power and he isn't there fighting for only Leia, even if Vader got a reaction out of him. When he went to challenge them, it wasn't for Leia.
Luke chooses not to fight Vader until he specifically brings up Leia, so I don't understand how you can equate his outburst where he chops Vader's hand off with anything but him fighting for Leia. I am not talking about his specific reasons for letting Vader capture him in the first place or trying to kill Palpatine, I am talking about the specific instance of Luke attacking Vader in a rage because that small scene is an incredibly important part of his character.
 

bleedblue1223

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To be clear, this isn't what I said.


Luke chooses not to fight Vader until he specifically brings up Leia, so I don't understand how you can equate his outburst where he chops Vader's hand off with anything but him fighting for Leia. I am not talking about his specific reasons for letting Vader capture him in the first place or trying to kill Palpatine, I am talking about the specific instance of Luke attacking Vader in a rage because that small scene is an incredibly important part of his character.
He chose not to fight because he was attempting to pull the light out of him, but when he first lowered his defenses, he still fought back, so it's not like he chose not to fight permanently, it was just a move to try to turn Vader. Yes, he was fighting for Leia in that moment and fought with anger, but even if he did kill Vader in that moment, I don't think that makes him go dark and become Palp's apprentice. I do see the point you are making though, but still going back to the original point, Rey displays similar characteristics as well.
 
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ArGarBarGar

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He chose not to fight because he was attempting to pull the light out of him, but when he first lowered his defenses, he still fought back, so it's not like he chose not to fight permanently, it was just a move to try to turn Vader. Yes, he was fighting for Leia in that moment and fought with anger, but even if he did kill Vader in that moment, I don't think that makes him go dark and become Palp's apprentice. I do see the point you are making though, but still going back to the original point, Rey displays similar characteristics as well.
I think Rey says she displayed similar characteristics, but I do not believe the movie properly showed any kind of conflict. It was another thing in the movie that really didn't flesh out certain ideas that they were trying to convey (or at least what it seems like they were trying to convey).
 

bleedblue1223

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I think Rey says she displayed similar characteristics, but I do not believe the movie properly showed any kind of conflict. It was another thing in the movie that really didn't flesh out certain ideas that they were trying to convey (or at least what it seems like they were trying to convey).
It's throughout all the movies, her being naive and focusing on her identity too much. That made her vulnerable to the Palp connection. I agree they did a bad job of it throughout the trilogy.
 

Osprey

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I, personally, didn't get any sense that Rey was conflicted about her level of emotion or that there was any judgment being placed on it. In contrast, both were stressed in the OT. Yoda taught Luke that "anger, fear, aggression; the dark side of the Force are they." It was just a vision, but Luke seeing his face under the mask was a warning that striking down Vader in that manner would lead him to the dark side. After that, Luke worked harder to control his emotion, culminating in him refusing to finish off a wounded Vader when he had the chance.

What did Rey do when she had a chance to finish off Kylo in TRoS? She bared her teeth, made an aggressive sound and plunged her lightsaber into him. So much for anger and aggression being the dark side. Can you imagine if the same rules of conduct that applied to Luke had been applied to Rey? It probably would've been criticized as sending a message that women shouldn't be overly emotional. We can't have that in today's culture, so Rey ends up being a less interesting character than Luke and Anakin, a conflict that was important in the OT and PT is mostly missing and the ST "feels" less like Star Wars because of it, IMO.
 
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