Movies: Rise of Skywalker [SPOILER] Edition - II

[Mr Fahrenheit]

Oh...

Well, I'll give you that there was a pretty high volume of violence and sex innuendos in them, but it was another era. The Ewoks are the most blatant kiddie stuff from the OT, just like JarJar is for the prequels, but the whole thing was pretty much a children tale. It's not too hard to recognize archetypes similar to those you'd find in The Wizard of Oz other such things, and well, and the pew-pews and lightsaber stuff really wasn't adult oriented (I don't recall any adult from my childhood being fans of SW). And well, the toys...

Star Wars is based on the Heroes Journey, its not a childs tale its just a tale

 

[Osprey]

RJ knows Star Wars more than Star Wars fans.

Star Wars: The Last Jedi Director Rian Johnson Admits He Didn't Care About Star Wars Canon And History - Bounding Into Comics

No, not at all. Because I don’t really think in terms of universes or in terms of creating worlds or whatever. That’s not that interesting to me."

"So, to me the notion of what’s the entire galaxy or world that you are creating or something, I can’t imagine getting excited about creating that.

In other words, from Johnson's own mouth, the world of Star Wars doesn't interest or excite him. Are you even a fan if those don't interest or excite you? I'd argue not.

 

[Osprey]

Lucas targeted Star Wars at "young people" (his quote from 1977). He wanted to give them something fun and adventurous like the Flash Gordon TV series that he grew up with. In fact, he invented the world of Star Wars because he couldn't secure the rights to make a Flash Gordon movie. Anyways, the Flash Gordon TV series ran from 1954-55. Lucas was born in 44, so he was at least 10 or 11 and probably even as old as 14 or 15 if he watched it on re-runs. In other words, it's probable that he was targeting 10-15 year olds, or pre-teens to early teens. That's hardly "kiddie" age, and even saying that it's "for children" isn't fair, IMO, since we generally think of children as under 10.

I, personally, have no problem with admitting that Star Wars was targeted at pre-teens and early teens. That doesn't mean that it's only for them, though. Lucas was not dumb enough to make a multimillion-dollar movie that appealed only to 10-15 year olds. He wrote and directed it in such a way that it didn't feel like it was targeted at any age group, which helped many different age groups to embrace it. I'm not sure that I agree with correcting adults who claim that the movie was made for them because they're not entirely incorrect. It's not primarily made for them, no, but there's nothing in it that screams "kiddie content" or would turn off an adult. After all, Lucas was in his 30s when he developed it, and he presumably made a movie that he would like.

 

[AlanHUK]

I still maintain that a decent trilogy could have been made if IX didn't just throw everything out of whack. It feels so disjointed compared to the movies preceding it, trying to have its cake and eat it too.

In the first 15 minutes TLJ starts throwing things out of wack, and it just kinda carried on doing it through the rest of the film.

The last thing you see from the First Order is Snoke telling Hux to bring him Kylo so he can complete his training. TLJ starts exact the exact point TFA ends, so Hux should be taking Kylo to Snoke at that point for training. Instead he's onboard a star destroyer attacking the resistance base and Kylo isn't getting any training, oh and he's also now completely inept and has no understanding of any kind of military strategy.

The resistance bombers ignore their general telling them not to attack and listen to Poe, who has been promoted at some point between landing from the star killer base attack and taking off again for his one man attack.

Then they escape and Snoke makes a mockery of Hux in front of his crew for losing the resistance, at this point we find out about lightspeed tracking, and so apparently so does Snoke despite him having this technology on his capital ship.

Finn tells the resistance tracking through lightspeed is impossible, then him and Rose figure it all out as 'new tech' and they know exactly where on a star destroyer it would work from. They have the blueprints for Snoke's ship which isn't a star destroyer, but still know exactly where to go.

If you watch VII and VIII back to back it really shows how bad the writing and storytelling of VIII is. It seems like nothing was run past the story group who oversee everything in the star wars universe and Rian was just given free reign to do as he pleased.

I think the mistake IX made was trying to explain things from VIII and do it's own part 2 while trying to tie up the sequels, and the entire saga.

 

[ArGarBarGar]

Cool beans, guys.

 

[Mario_is_BACK!!]

The Last Jedi is easily the best of the new trilogy and JJ should have been left to make the first one only.

 

[Osprey]

Cool beans, guys.

I get that you're tired of arguing in circles, but flippant and insulting responses like this do more harm to your position than theirs, IMO. They make it easier for people to dismiss you as being a Rian Johnson fanboy and have confidence in their criticisms if the only counter is immature rather than intelligent.

 

[ArGarBarGar]

I get that you're tired of arguing in circles, but flippant and insulting responses like this do more harm to your position than theirs, IMO. They make it easier for people to dismiss you as being a Rian Johnson fanboy and have confidence in their criticisms if the only counter is immature rather than intelligent.

I have explained my position off and on for two years. If that post is what makes someone dismissive of me then they were just looking for a reason to dismiss me.

 

[Pranzo Oltranzista]

Lucas targeted Star Wars at "young people" (his quote from 1977).

What about his quote I just posted where he says it's always been targeted at children?

it's probable that he was targeting 10-15 year olds, or pre-teens to early teens. That's hardly "kiddie" age, and even saying that it's "for children" isn't fair, IMO, since we generally think of children as under 10.

Fair enough. Let's say he was. I said 6-7-8-9 y/0 because that was my personal experience of the OT. My point still stands: SW fans don't acknowledge the fact that these films were amazingly satisfying to their [10-11-12-13 y/o] self and that they are not meant to be targeting adult audiences. Thus, these new films didn't stand much chance of pleasing that audience.

 

[Osprey]

I have explained my position off and on for two years. If that post is what makes someone dismissive of me then they were just looking for a reason to dismiss me.

It's not just that post. You have a history of making posts of that nature. You also have a history of making thoughtful arguments, but people tend to be judged by their worst behavior. See our President. I, for one, am not looking to dismiss you. I'd rather do the opposite and respect you for your arguments and opinions, and I'm just telling you that that's harder when you make posts like that. You may not care, but you should at least know that.

 

[ArGarBarGar]

It's not just that post. You have a history of making posts of that nature. You also have a history of making thoughtful arguments, but people tend to be judged by their worst behavior. See our President. I, for one, am not looking to dismiss you. I'd rather do the opposite and respect you for your arguments and opinions, and I'm just telling you that that's harder when you make posts like that. You may not care, but you should at least know that.

I understand where you are coming from.

 

[Mario_is_BACK!!]

I don't mean to come in here to bitch about this movie but I'm on my fourth attempt to watch it again. I turned it off with 45 minutes left. It just... man, what a wasted opportunity.

 

[bleedblue1223]

The discussions for 8 are just so tired at this point. We all know where each other stand, and opinions aren't going to be changed now, so what's the point. There really isn't much room for interesting agree to disagree discussions.

 

[Big Poppa Puck]

Finally got around to watching this. I thought it was decent. A masterpiece compared to TLJ. I need to watch it again though. Right now I'd say it's at least as good as TFA which was meh and safe.

There were some things I didn't like:

-Palpatine being alive and not telling us how. Why not at least make him a dark side force ghost who's been manipulating Kylo or something? They basically made the Vader arc of the first 6 movies pointless.
-Kylo is still awesome with mask, annoying emo without.
-Black Xena. Unnecessary and forced character. I can't even remember her name.
-The kiss at the end.

It seems like Abrams was trying hard to clean up Johnson's mess. And did some things well and some terrible.


I will add that Babu Frik was great.

 

[ArGarBarGar]

The discussions for 8 are just so tired at this point. We all know where each other stand, and opinions aren't going to be changed now, so what's the point. There really isn't much room for interesting agree to disagree discussions.

Yeah but we haven't discussed whether or not Kylo Ren's topless scene was gratuitous or not.

There is so much we haven't discussed yet.

 

[Osprey]

What about his quote I just posted where he says it's always been targeted at children?

That's a quote from 1999 in which he's feeling defensive about criticism over The Phantom Menace for being too much of a children's movie. I think that he was being a little disingenuous in order to defend his brand new movie. Also, it's not uncommon for our definitions of age groups to change as we get older. Nowadays, with him being in his 70s, he'd probably consider a "young person" to be anyone under 30, whereas, in 1977, he was likely referring to pre-teens and teens. Either way, I wouldn't put too much stock into it.

In fact, I'm not sure that what Lucas claims was his target age range even really matters. The viewers determine what's age appropriate for them, not the content creator. What matters is which ages feel like the film was made for them. I suppose that it's sort of like the "message" versus "interpretation" debate. Whether Lucas intended it for adults or not, what matters is that adults interpreted it as being for them just as much as for kids. They decided that talking robots, 7ft-tall hairy creatures and the like were things that they liked, too, not strictly kids. They did decide, however, that Jar Jar was just too juvenile and kid exclusive, which is why Lucas caught such flak for him. He may've thought that there was no difference between that character and the kinds of stuff that he put in the OT, but most fans disagreed. It seems pointless to me to argue with those fans as if they should be fine with Jar Jar because Lucas suggested that they should. Lucas also thought that it was a good idea to add CGI to the OT.

 

[Osprey]

The discussions for 8 are just so tired at this point. We all know where each other stand, and opinions aren't going to be changed now, so what's the point. There really isn't much room for interesting agree to disagree discussions.

I'd say that the point is to discuss a topic that we're passionate about. It's personally satisfying, which is reason enough, IMO, just like it's personally satisfying to give our opinions on politics, even if we're ranting and not likely to change anyone else's opinions. Anyone who is tired of it need not join the discussion. There's no expiration date for topics. Fans still analyze and complain about RotJ and, especially, the prequel trilogy. Similarly, fans will still be analyzing and complaining about this sequel trilogy 20-30 years from now. In fact, I hope that we're all around to hear ArGarBarGar scold us with "It's been 25 years and you're still whining about The Last Jedi. Give it a rest!"

 

[Voight]

Finally got around to watching this. I thought it was decent. A masterpiece compared to TLJ. I need to watch it again though. Right now I'd say it's at least as good as TFA which was meh and safe.

There were some things I didn't like:

-Palpatine being alive and not telling us how. Why not at least make him a dark side force ghost who's been manipulating Kylo or something? They basically made the Vader arc of the first 6 movies pointless.
-Kylo is still awesome with mask, annoying emo without.
-Black Xena. Unnecessary and forced character. I can't even remember her name.
-The kiss at the end.

It seems like Abrams was trying hard to clean up Johnson's mess. And did some things well and some terrible.


I will add that Babu Frik was great.

Well Darth Plagueis was able to manipulate life and death & IIRC Palpatine killed him so maybe he got those sorts of powers when that happened?

 

[Shockmaster]

Finally got around to watching this. I thought it was decent. A masterpiece compared to TLJ. I need to watch it again though. Right now I'd say it's at least as good as TFA which was meh and safe.

There were some things I didn't like:

-Palpatine being alive and not telling us how. Why not at least make him a dark side force ghost who's been manipulating Kylo or something? They basically made the Vader arc of the first 6 movies pointless.
-Kylo is still awesome with mask, annoying emo without.
-Black Xena. Unnecessary and forced character. I can't even remember her name.
-The kiss at the end.

It seems like Abrams was trying hard to clean up Johnson's mess. And did some things well and some terrible.


I will add that Babu Frik was great.

It wasn't mentioned in the film, but basically after Anakin threw him down the reactor shaft in Episode VI he "transferred" his spirit out of his original body and into a deformed clone body on Exogul. That's where he made Snoke and started working on the Final Order and Sith Fleet in secret for the next 30 years.

And yeah, they should have mentioned something along those lines in the film. But overall there was a lot they failed to mention in this trilogy. I think they hoped the nostalgia factor of a group of rebels vs. another empire would override any gaping plot hole concerns among viewers.

 

[x Tame Impala]

but basically after Anakin threw him down the reactor shaft in Episode VI he "transferred" his spirit out of his original body and into a deformed clone body on Exogul. That's where he made Snoke and started working on the Final Order and Sith Fleet in secret for the next 30 years.

Speaking of adults vs children, how any serious adult wrote this plot line and thought it wouldn't be ridiculous is beyond me. What a waste of a movie, and a trilogy.

 

[ArGarBarGar]

Speaking of ROS, Hux being the spy was dumb, and the spy subplot was dumb. Especially since they added a new Sith general to try and convince the audience that he might be the spy. On subsequent rewatches it does not work well at all.

 

[bleedblue1223]

Eh, logical conclusion to their toddler tantrums fighting for daddy's approval in 7 and 8. Hux never worked as an actual leader IMO. JJ tried to copy the Emperor/Vader/Tarkin dynamic, but Vader and Tarkin had respect for each other, even if there weren't "friends". And they weren't desperate for Palp's approval or to put the other one down.

It makes complete sense that Hux would be motivated to make sure Kylo loses and backstab him, but he wouldn't do it in a way that the Resistance wins, he'd just try to undermine him internally.

Then, from the Resistance side, it doesn't make much sense why they just decided to trust Hux so eagerly. I know they were skeptical at the start, but that had trap written all over it. Compare it to Agent Kallus in Rebels, there was a lot more buildup and reasoning for his switch, and it took time for the Rebels to build trust with him.

 

[bleedblue1223]

The dagger lining up perfectly with the Death Star wreckage still gets me.

 

[Osprey]

The dagger lining up perfectly with the Death Star wreckage still gets me.

I also like that there are 4 possible ways that you could orient the dagger--in the left hand with the pointer on top, in the left hand with the pointer on the bottom, in the right hand with the pointer on top and in the right hand with the pointer on the bottom--and Rey happened to pick the correct way.

Besides that, what kind of person, after hiding a wayfinder in plain sight in the wreckage, would then sit down and craft a dagger (of all things) to lead someone to it? It's not even a ceremonial knife because Rey says that horrible things have happened with it. What if it broke or was lost in combat? What if just that retractable pointer part broke off? I can't even own a swiss army knife without eventually losing the tweezers and pen, and I'm not exactly killing people with it.

 

[bleedblue1223]

What also gets me is that there are 4 possible ways that you could orient the knife--in the left hand with the pointer on top, in the left hand with the pointer on the bottom, in the right hand with the pointer on top and in the right hand with the pointer on the bottom--and Rey happened to pick the correct way.

Besides that, what kind of person, after hiding a wayfinder in plain sight in the wreckage, would then sit down and craft a knife (of all things) to lead someone to it? It's not even a ceremonial knife because Rey says that horrible things have happened with it. What if it broke or was lost in combat? What if just that retractable pointer part broke off? I can't even own a swiss army knife without eventually losing the tweezers and pen, and I'm not exactly killing people with it.

Or the wreckage fell part.