Larry Brooks: Rangers a Finalist for Kerfoot (Update: Kerfoot Chooses Colorado)

[The Mouth]

Depth signing? Vesey didn't impress me, and I'm reading that this guy isn't as good as Vesey, so I don't really see a reason to add him -- other than depth.

Vesey didn't Impress you ? He had 16 goals as a Rookie and we got him for free. He also played like 4x the games he would have played in college in his first NHL season. I was very impressed with him. He had his highs and lows but that's expected for a first year player. He was solid defensively, got into a scrap or two and is a big body.

 

[Irishguy42]

I guess tomorrow is when we'll hear about Kerfoot.

 

[Joey Bones]

Zipay gonna Zip....

 

[YoSoyLalo]

Vesey didn't Impress you ? He had 16 goals as a Rookie and we got him for free. He also played like 4x the games he would have played in college in his first NHL season. I was very impressed with him. He had his highs and lows but that's expected for a first year player. He was solid defensively, got into a scrap or two and is a big body.

Vesey was terrible defensively.

 

[Ola]

The team already owns them longer than a CHL player if they play 4 years.

Yeah, but I also think that its important to remember that it is an amateur draft system, not a slave system.

Look, far from all young hockey players are not given any reason what so ever to sign with the team that drafted them. It should take two to tango. NHL teams should also have a responsibility to make themselves into a viable location for a kid to go to.

If you look at what kids go this way, its definitely biased towards kids with a very strong support system that is comfortable in this environment. Be it a Tim Erixon with a dad in the system, Vesey with a father being an part-owner or something, Hayes with a bro and cousin in the league and so forth.

I've heard of kids being drafted and signed and then told "you are the worst goalie [or other position] we have ever seen before even stepping on the ice". Many NHL GMs are more afraid of looking bad at anything else, they would give an offer to a kid just to prevent him from looking good elsewhere.

OTOH, it is a bit problematic with the kids in College going full term on their education and then directly stepping into UFA in August after their graduation. Maybe a contract offer plus compensation picks from league if the kid performs is a good option? Maybe pulling the UFA period a little longer into the season after? But many are screaming for an absolut lock-up -- I don't like that at all from the kids perspective.

 

[Ola]

One alternative might be to run one 2a line and three 2b lines:
2a . Kreider-Zib-Buch

2b. Grabner-Hayes-Miller / Nash-Kerfoot-Vesey / Zucc-Desharnais-Fast

I think all those 4 lines actually could play pretty good hockey.

 

[Edge]

16-11-27 is a strong rookie season, any better is an exception -
not out of Vesey's reach, but that he didnt exced that is not meaningful,
rookie year is a tough transition experience

I agree. I thought he trailed off as a lot of the team trailed off.

I've said this before, but I think it continues to hold true, the NHL's scoring structure is changing.

30 years ago, you might have a guy on the third line who popped in 20 goals, nowadays, that guy is very easily a top 6 player.

The offense is more spread out than ever before and individual numbers continue to slide. Sidney Crosby is considered one of the elite, premiere offensive players of his generation and he hasn't topped 90 points in four years, his numbers having peaked 10 years ago.

A 16 goal rookie season is pretty darn solid. Sure it was unbalanced, but so was a lot of the team's play.
Before the season started, people were projecting Vesey as a solid third line prospect, with a strong second line upside. I don't think anything has changed at this point.

But I almost feel as if we're consistently over-projecting these younger guys by a good 5 goals apiece. While that doesn't sound like a lot, in today's NHL it's a fair clip - maybe as much 33 percent.

In the end it's the difference between Kreider scoring 33 as opposed to 28, Miller scoring 27 as opposed to 22, etc. etc. Add it all up and you're talking the equivalent of a solid third line scorer in over-projections.

Growing pains and all, Vesey scored more goals last year than Zuc, and only one less than Hayes and Stepan. Yes, he has work to do, but let's not act like he put up single digit goals in the AHL either.

 

[egelband]

Vesey didn't Impress you ? He had 16 goals as a Rookie and we got him for free. He also played like 4x the games he would have played in college in his first NHL season. I was very impressed with him. He had his highs and lows but that's expected for a first year player. He was solid defensively, got into a scrap or two and is a big body.

Me too. He was up-and-down but his ups were encouraging. He uses his body pretty well and is pretty heady. I'm optimistic.

 

[egelband]

Kerfoot is an 8/10 hockey name.

 

[Gardner McKay]

I agree. I thought he trailed off as a lot of the team trailed off.

I've said this before, but I think it continues to hold true, the NHL's scoring structure is changing.

30 years ago, you might have a guy on the third line who popped in 20 goals, nowadays, that guy is very easily a top 6 player.

The offense is more spread out than ever before and individual numbers continue to slide. Sidney Crosby is considered one of the elite, premiere offensive players of his generation and he hasn't topped 90 points in four years, his numbers having peaked 10 years ago.

A 16 goal rookie season is pretty darn solid. Sure it was unbalanced, but so was a lot of the team's play.
Before the season started, people were projecting Vesey as a solid third line prospect, with a strong second line upside. I don't think anything has changed at this point.

But I almost feel as if we're consistently over-projecting these younger guys by a good 5 goals apiece. While that doesn't sound like a lot, in today's NHL it's a fair clip - maybe as much 33 percent.

In the end it's the difference between Kreider scoring 33 as opposed to 28, Miller scoring 27 as opposed to 22, etc. etc. Add it all up and you're talking the equivalent of a solid third line scorer in over-projections.

Growing pains and all, Vesey scored more goals last year than Zuc, and only one less than Hayes and Stepan. Yes, he has work to do, but let's not act like he put up single digit goals in the AHL either.

Oh. Bravo sir. Bravo. Perfectly stated.

 

[HockeyBasedNYC]

I agree. I thought he trailed off as a lot of the team trailed off.

I've said this before, but I think it continues to hold true, the NHL's scoring structure is changing.

30 years ago, you might have a guy on the third line who popped in 20 goals, nowadays, that guy is very easily a top 6 player.

The offense is more spread out than ever before and individual numbers continue to slide. Sidney Crosby is considered one of the elite, premiere offensive players of his generation and he hasn't topped 90 points in four years, his numbers having peaked 10 years ago.

A 16 goal rookie season is pretty darn solid. Sure it was unbalanced, but so was a lot of the team's play.
Before the season started, people were projecting Vesey as a solid third line prospect, with a strong second line upside. I don't think anything has changed at this point.

But I almost feel as if we're consistently over-projecting these younger guys by a good 5 goals apiece. While that doesn't sound like a lot, in today's NHL it's a fair clip - maybe as much 33 percent.

In the end it's the difference between Kreider scoring 33 as opposed to 28, Miller scoring 27 as opposed to 22, etc. etc. Add it all up and you're talking the equivalent of a solid third line scorer in over-projections.

Growing pains and all, Vesey scored more goals last year than Zuc, and only one less than Hayes and Stepan. Yes, he has work to do, but let's not act like he put up single digit goals in the AHL either.

Nailed it.

The collegiate division Vesey played in is light-years behind the NHL. The one thing that impressed me about Vesey was his ability to steadily improve on the small details of the game as the season went on. His work on the walls and using his size to his advantage specifically.

Like you mentioned, he had his moments and fell into a lull (as the entire team did) but he finished strong in the playoffs on both sides of the puck. He was one of the better forwards in the Ottawa series. That was a good sign for a rookie playing over 90 games in his first year.

Like a lot of forwards on this team, the expectations put on them are set about line or so higher than what they really are. There are no bonafide P. Kanes, C. Perry's or Crosby's on this team to lean on and take the pressure off of guys like Vesey, Hayes, Miller and to some extent Kreider. But what you mentioned about the scoring structure holds true.

 

[Ola]

I agree. I thought he trailed off as a lot of the team trailed off.

I've said this before, but I think it continues to hold true, the NHL's scoring structure is changing.

30 years ago, you might have a guy on the third line who popped in 20 goals, nowadays, that guy is very easily a top 6 player.

The offense is more spread out than ever before and individual numbers continue to slide. Sidney Crosby is considered one of the elite, premiere offensive players of his generation and he hasn't topped 90 points in four years, his numbers having peaked 10 years ago.

A 16 goal rookie season is pretty darn solid. Sure it was unbalanced, but so was a lot of the team's play.
Before the season started, people were projecting Vesey as a solid third line prospect, with a strong second line upside. I don't think anything has changed at this point.

But I almost feel as if we're consistently over-projecting these younger guys by a good 5 goals apiece. While that doesn't sound like a lot, in today's NHL it's a fair clip - maybe as much 33 percent.

In the end it's the difference between Kreider scoring 33 as opposed to 28, Miller scoring 27 as opposed to 22, etc. etc. Add it all up and you're talking the equivalent of a solid third line scorer in over-projections.

Growing pains and all, Vesey scored more goals last year than Zuc, and only one less than Hayes and Stepan. Yes, he has work to do, but let's not act like he put up single digit goals in the AHL either.

Definitely, and further to that, there is a very big difference between teams. Compare like Philly with Simmonds, Giroux and Voracek on a line. Those three scores a lot because they get all the top minutes, a huge amount of PP time and so forth. We roll four lines more consistently than Philly does. And AV always awards lines doing well with more ice time, i.e. we do not have a set 1/2/3/4 line order. Sometimes the 4th play more than the 3rd, sometimes the 2nd play the most of all lines -- and so forth.

But if our top guys play less, can't we still compare points/60 between our top guys and the top guys of other teams that get all the top minutes? Its not a give that such a comparison will show a fair result, even if it "on paper" might sound water proof. The thing is, scoring in the NHL is a matter of extremely small marginals. From a pure probability POV, if it takes 100 shots on net for 7-8 to go in, sometimes someone might put 150 shots on net without one going in. Just like you can roll a dice 10 times without getting a 6. Further to that, just look closely at an "open net" goal nowadays. 19/20 times when a goal is scored into what is called an open net -- there is a goalie diving across as the shot is taken and even those goals are small marginals.

This will affect a player's confidence, if you haven't played and been in that situation yourself, I do think this is one of those things that can be a bit hard to grasp. If you play in a big role, get all the top minutes, goals and pts should still come sooner rather than later. You also get more of an offensive focus. It doesn't affect your confidence as much. But when your team rolls four lines and you play as much as everyone else -- you just become more inconsistent, and of course score less points overall over the course of a season.

I think going forward, we will have to get used to players being more inconsistent when we roll four lines. It doesn't matter if its Zib or Kreider or Vesey or Fast -- longer dry spells are expected unless you get that goto role in some capacity.

 

[Irishguy42]

 

[Brooklyn Rangers Fan]

I agree. I thought he trailed off as a lot of the team trailed off.

I've said this before, but I think it continues to hold true, the NHL's scoring structure is changing.

30 years ago, you might have a guy on the third line who popped in 20 goals, nowadays, that guy is very easily a top 6 player.

The offense is more spread out than ever before and individual numbers continue to slide. Sidney Crosby is considered one of the elite, premiere offensive players of his generation and he hasn't topped 90 points in four years, his numbers having peaked 10 years ago.

A 16 goal rookie season is pretty darn solid. Sure it was unbalanced, but so was a lot of the team's play.
Before the season started, people were projecting Vesey as a solid third line prospect, with a strong second line upside. I don't think anything has changed at this point.

But I almost feel as if we're consistently over-projecting these younger guys by a good 5 goals apiece. While that doesn't sound like a lot, in today's NHL it's a fair clip - maybe as much 33 percent.

In the end it's the difference between Kreider scoring 33 as opposed to 28, Miller scoring 27 as opposed to 22, etc. etc. Add it all up and you're talking the equivalent of a solid third line scorer in over-projections.

Growing pains and all, Vesey scored more goals last year than Zuc, and only one less than Hayes and Stepan. Yes, he has work to do, but let's not act like he put up single digit goals in the AHL either.

Excellently said. Also, people aren't giving him enough credit for the fact that he isn't done progressing. They're judging his upside as if he showed it last year. Sure, he's 24 going into this year, but last year was his first in the league – there is ALWAYS an adjustment. Don't forget that Joe reported talking to other teams' scouts who predicted he'd be a "solid top 6 forward" (or something like that) within THREE years. We're entering year 2.

 

[Pavel Buchnevich]

While I do agree scoring has lowered, and I had no problem with Vesey's leash, I can't agree that he was good last season. Unless your expectations for Vesey were like a 8th or 9th forward as his prime, I can't think last season was a good season.

About a 9th forward in PPG, 9th forward in ice time per game, but then you gotta factor in that he played for a very good offensive team. He had the lowest P/60 of any of the Rangers forwards who played regularly in the top 9 at 5 on 5, and was even lower than 4th line Fast, and defenseman like Skjei and Clendening. Essentially, he was a drag on scoring efficiency. Who knows what his stats would've been playing on a team that doesn't score so many goals. His 5 on 5 P/60 was that of a 10th forward, and as I already mentioned, his got propped up because of the team he played for. He was basically a cross between a 3rd/4th liner offensively, and then defensively he was one of the worst on the team.

 

[rvdnsx]

Hopefully the Rangers are finalizing a deal this morning. All up to Jimmy Vesey now to convince Kerfoot.

 

[bobbop]

Vesey was terrible defensively.

Have to take issue with this. He wasn't bad defensiely at all and got better at this as the year went along. By the playoffs, he and Nash were the checking line.

 

[Levitate]

Have to take issue with this. He wasn't bad defensiely at all and got better at this as the year went along. By the playoffs, he and Nash were the checking line.

I think the issue was he was pretty terrible at generating shots and chances and didn't really suppress shots against very well either.

As I've said before I think there's still a disconnect between what people think of as 'good defensively' in terms of stuff like looking active in the defensive zone and pressuring opponents, being in decent position, and the stats version of 'good defensively' which is you don't allow many shots against or chances against regardless of how you look on the ice.

If Vesey is consistently on the ice for a ton of shots against and can't generate shots for, then either his usage needs to change or he needs to get better

 

[kovazub94]

Have to take issue with this. He wasn't bad defensiely at all and got better at this as the year went along. By the playoffs, he and Nash were the checking line.

Aren't you missing someone?

With Stepan in the middle Vesey and Nash were NYR' two-way line and IMHO it wasn't very good. Now much of it was attributable to Stepan but Vesey was often behind the play especially in the first half of the season though roughly February. Vesey got better toward the end of the season but it was still a long way from being good.

He would have to be better this year and he probably will.

 

[Thirty One]

This guy is taking forever. Clearly some character issues there.

 

[Inferno]

i thought Vesey was absolutely atrocious defensively..and was a turnover machine.

 

[Fansince1992]

Been waiting 2 days for this decision. I guess I'll just keep waiting....

 

[Oscar Lindberg]

I can feel it in my bones, he's going to sign with San Jose

 

[Fansince1992]

https://www.fearthefin.com/2017/8/2...arks-new-york-rangers-harvard-free-agent-ncaa

It looks like its comes down to Sharks or Rangers

 

[Hunter Gathers]

I can feel it in my bones, he's going to sign with San Jose

Would be a giant "meh" if he does. No real loss.