Quebec still in discussions.
- Thread starter Dynamite Kid
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MessierII
Registered User
- Aug 10, 2011
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Why would I or anyone else not in the NHL care about that? I couldn't care less about anyone else's opinion on hockey.
Hell, why would the NHL care if women played hockey? How does that help the NHL in any way?
TheLegend
Megathread Gadfly
Then why are you here??? Unless you just want to waste everyone's time building strawmen??
... What? There are people on this website who dislike the sport of hockey? Who joins a hockey message board to dislike hockey?
TheLegend
Megathread Gadfly
But you have to tell me more about "growing the sport of hockey" and how women playing hockey helps achieve that, and how that in any way helps the NHL.
Presumably they're more likely to watch a game on tv or attend a game, thereby getting the NHL more fans spending money.
That must be why Lacrosse, WNBA, and Soccer have such good TV ratings.
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Bondurant
Registered User
More on the anecdotal side but not completely irrelevant is that as of 9/12 there are more kids from Arizona on the NTDP u-18 and u-17 squads than there are from Massachusetts.
MMC
Global Moderator
GuelphStormer
Registered User
a) what actual benefits to the league would those slam dunk markets add?
b) what reasons are there to wait to add these markets until after the other expansion options you list are attained?
Stumbledore
Registered User
Just my opinion, obviously, but Quebec City will never get a franchise of any sort due to the local politics and personalities with deep pockets.
Stumbledore
Registered User
Females who play hockey are more likely to become the strongest fans of hockey. When I went to games, I saw a lot of females in the stands. The more people in the stands, the more money the team owners can make.
Stumbledore
Registered User
Like I said before, why hasn't that happened in soccer or lacrosse? Canada's and the US's female soccer players are among the best in the world and the average attendance in the NWSL is about 7500.
With respect to Quebec's chances....
It seems very clear that, excepting some sort of crisis situation, NHL has no need for Quebec in the league. I think that much could be readily agreed on by most here.
The question is: What kind of a crisis could move NHL to open itself to the possibility of Quebec coming in?
I think that history is a good indicator that, regardless of what happens in Phoenix, the Yotes are NOT going to Quebec. There were plenty of times when that could have happened, perhaps most clear when COG cancelled IA's lease.
Would pandemic-induced financial issues for Florida do it? I don't know, but I do know that Broward County has them under lease through 2023, if Broward County continues to want them. I can't see the pandemic immediately changing that. There is nothing else to do with the property on which BBT Center sits that would make it better for Broward right now. However, the pandemic surely is affecting Viola. So, perhaps the end result is that the long term effects of the pandemic are such that a move becomes more likely.
If so, where does the franchise move? I don't know of a better place in the ETZ than Quebec. In fact, I don't know of a better spot in North America. Unless, someone with Atlanta ties sees a way to go back there. I feel that to be very unlikely. But, perhaps NOT impossible. And, if that were an option, NHL would go there before QC for sure.
It seems very clear that, excepting some sort of crisis situation, NHL has no need for Quebec in the league. I think that much could be readily agreed on by most here.
The question is: What kind of a crisis could move NHL to open itself to the possibility of Quebec coming in?
I think that history is a good indicator that, regardless of what happens in Phoenix, the Yotes are NOT going to Quebec. There were plenty of times when that could have happened, perhaps most clear when COG cancelled IA's lease.
Would pandemic-induced financial issues for Florida do it? I don't know, but I do know that Broward County has them under lease through 2023, if Broward County continues to want them. I can't see the pandemic immediately changing that. There is nothing else to do with the property on which BBT Center sits that would make it better for Broward right now. However, the pandemic surely is affecting Viola. So, perhaps the end result is that the long term effects of the pandemic are such that a move becomes more likely.
If so, where does the franchise move? I don't know of a better place in the ETZ than Quebec. In fact, I don't know of a better spot in North America. Unless, someone with Atlanta ties sees a way to go back there. I feel that to be very unlikely. But, perhaps NOT impossible. And, if that were an option, NHL would go there before QC for sure.
NWSL would be equivalent to a women's pro hockey league. That's not the discussion. The discussion is.....if more women play, more women will want to go to watch NHL players play (I mean the Male league). So, it increases demand for NHL tickets.
Here's a question: What is the percentage of females in the stands today compared to 30 years ago?
KevFu
Registered User
A) with how the CBA of the NHL is structured -- cap/floor tied to the average revenue of teams -- having an imbalance between the rich teams, average teams and poor teams is bad for business, because having the majority of teams below average creates more poor teams. Simply put, the NHL needs to grow its middle class.
The peer markets for Houston is obviously Dallas, but it's also Miami and Phoenix; and the peer markets for Seattle would be Vancouver or Denver; and the peer market for Vegas would be Nashville and San Jose, and Portland would be Columbus, Nashville, smaller Denver. So while we expect that with the lessons learned from the 90s expansions about arenas, leases and ownership, new markets would be established properly, there's still risk involved when you see some of the lower revenue clubs on the list of peers. You know what you're getting in Southern Ontario and Quebec, and that's a baseline level of success.
B) There's three reasons to wait on those markets:
1. Sudden expansion is bad. I've been talking about these six markets since 2012/2013 as "I think this is the NHL's plan going forward," which could indicate the NHL learned sudden expansion is bad. You don't want nine new teams in nine years; you want a new team every six years or so. When you have a club of 21 and you add 9 new members at once, you're not GROWING the club, you're changing the club. You add one or two at a time, and you're growing the club.
2. The obvious obstacles in the paths of some of those markets: You can't add a team in Southern Ontario without addressing the MLSE/Buffalo situation. You can't add a team in Houston or Portland without the owners of the Rockets and Trailblazers. You don't even know if your sixth is Portland or maybe it's San Diego or somewhere else in the West.
3. The reason the NHL got Las Vegas and Seattle before Quebec is votes based. Adding two to the 14-team Western Conference doesn't upset the financial security for DET, CBJ, MIN, WIN, DAL, TB, FLA, CAR, WAS; because there's no way the NHL was not just going to slot those two into the West and make 8-8-8-8, leaving WIN, DAL, NASH in the Central, DET, CBJ in the East, and TB, FLA, CAR, WAS in groups of 8 and not in their own division together. But adding Quebec with Vegas makes a 17-15 split and how to configure THAT becomes "all bets are off."
Because all those teams are going to think: Where do they fit? And what does that mean for where WE fit? What if they try....
VAN, EDM, CAL, (WIN?) | SJ, LA, ANA, VGK | MIN, CHI, STL, (DET? or CBJ?) | ARZ, COL, (DAL?), (NASH?)
BOS, MON, OTT, QUE | TOR, BUF, DET, (PIT?) | NYR, NYI, NJD, PHI | (WAS?), (CAR?) , (TB?), (FLA ?)
And you have WIN not wanting to span 3 time zones again, DET/CBJ not wanting to go back West, DAL/NASH not wanting to spend 2/3 of their division play in the Mountain Time Zone (And Mountain Standard in April/Oct); WAS, PIT not wanting to leave the NYC/PHI quartet, TB/FLA/CAR not wanting to go back to a Southeast Division. So those teams are concerned before they open the booklet of "Quebec City Bid Proposal"
KevFu
Registered User
Right, women are only 52% of the potential customer base, why would the NHL care about that demographic? 35% of women don't even manage the budget of their own households; Their spending decisions are meaningless to the NHL!
What does any of that have to do with playing hockey? Soccer is a very popular sport in Canada and the US and yet that hasn't translated to butts in seats for women's soccer.
Again, the issue for the NHL is NOT women's hockey. It's female fans of hockey. If more women play hockey, anyone playing, and their families, are much more likely to be NHL fans
BKIslandersFan
F*** off
Yukon Joe
Registered User
WPG (unless you're purposely doing a Friedmanism).
Winnipeg would kill to play more games against the other western Canadian teams. Why do you think that WPG's two heritage classics have been against Edmonton and Calgary? Why do they schedule pre-season games against Edmonton and Calgary every year? Why did they used to attend Vancouver's young stars pre-season tournament? They're just more natural rivals and ticket sell that much easier.
Even if the travel would be better. Distance Winnipeg to Vancouver is shorter than it is Winnipeg to Dallas, plus there's no border to cross (and customs to clear).
In the last realignment Winnipeg had new ownership and was being accomodated by moving out of the South-East, so did not have any basis to otherwise object to being the only Canadian team in the division.
Aside from the point others are making about watching NHL, the other thing to consider is attendance in these women's leagues would be lower if women weren't participating in these sports. It's not a matter of why attendance isn't higher. It's thinking how much lower attendance would be if less women participate in the sports.
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