Quebec still in discussions.

[Stumbledore]

I thinking why would it be good for a Cuban-American owner, who’s marketing emphasis is focused towards Hispanics, to relocate his franchise from a 40% Hispanic market to the epicenter of French speaking North America.

His marketing emphasis is focused toward Hispanics because his market is 40% Hispanic. But you left out the part about how few Hispanics are buying tickets to see the Coyotes.

It wouldn't matter if his market was 130% Hispanic and all his adverts were in Spanish and all his players spoke Spanish. If people aren't buying your product, you close your business and move to another town.

I won't get into the endless debate over how many tens of millions of dollars the Coyotes are losing each year, but I can promise you (for what that's worth) that if the Coyotes relocated to Quebec City and the team advertised only in Spanish they would still sell a lot more tickets in La belle province than they do in the Valley of the Sun.

PS: The epicenter is Montréal, not Ville de Québec.

 

[KevFu]

His marketing emphasis is focused toward Hispanics because his market is 40% Hispanic. But you left out the part about how few Hispanics are buying tickets to see the Coyotes.

If people aren't buying your product, you close your business and move to another town.

I won't get into the endless debate over how many tens of millions of dollars the Coyotes are losing each year, but I can promise you (for what that's worth) that if the Coyotes relocated to Quebec City and the team advertised only in Spanish they would still sell a lot more tickets in La belle province than they do in the Valley of the Sun.

I don't disagree with your overall point; and I am totally on Team Bring Back The Nordiques.

But the whole "close your business and move to another town" comment should end with... "like, the East Valley."


Pro sports teams losing between 0 to $10 million a year isn't an indicator of bad health because of how US tax code works and the fact that these teams are part of corporate empires and not mom & pop stores. The Islanders lost money for like, 25 years straight and the NOTHING HAPPENED. A string of owners covered the expenses and life went on. Because if you could get a properly run franchise, with the holy trinity of arena, lease and ownership, you can make money.

And that's why these teams keep staying in Arizona and Florida and Dallas. It's the championship t-shirt factor: If the Jets 1.0 won the Cup, they'd sell 1.4 million championship t-shirts because everyone in Manitoba would buy one. If half of the Phoenix metro area bought a Coyotes championship t-shirt, they'd sell 2.9 million.

 

[Stumbledore]

I don't disagree with your overall point; and I am totally on Team Bring Back The Nordiques.

But the whole "close your business and move to another town" comment should end with... "like, the East Valley."


Pro sports teams losing between 0 to $10 million a year isn't an indicator of bad health because of how US tax code works and the fact that these teams are part of corporate empires and not mom & pop stores. The Islanders lost money for like, 25 years straight and the NOTHING HAPPENED. A string of owners covered the expenses and life went on. Because if you could get a properly run franchise, with the holy trinity of arena, lease and ownership, you can make money.

And that's why these teams keep staying in Arizona and Florida and Dallas. It's the championship t-shirt factor: If the Jets 1.0 won the Cup, they'd sell 1.4 million championship t-shirts because everyone in Manitoba would buy one. If half of the Phoenix metro area bought a Coyotes championship t-shirt, they'd sell 2.9 million.

You're right. In my lame defence, I could say that I own properties in Goodyear and Mesa and consider them separate towns.

But perhaps what I should have said was "move to another arena" and that pretty much rules out Scottsdale and environs because nobody's building arenas in this economy. Especially casino owners whose fortunes are shrivelling.

Not sure I buy your champion t-shirt factor. Given the profit margin on a shirt, selling 2 million more of them in one market over another is chicken-feed compared to the expense of operating an NHL franchise. No disrespect to chickens.

In my opinion, Quebec City is not going to get a franchise for reasons of the province's politics and personalities. As for why teams keep staying, in Florida and Dallas it's because of billionaires with big bank accounts and bigger egos. In Arizona, it's a complete mystery -- which of course opens the door for endless theories, conspiracies, speculations, spreadsheets, bullsheets, and bored old guys who hang around in here.

 

[Fatass]

Coyotes moving to Quebec City would be awesome. For sure I’d be taking at least one trip (from Vancouver) per season to watch a home stand. Fabulous city to visit, and having NHL games as the trip focus would be the best. Would be very difficult to get tickets though. Likely have to buy from season ticket holders, who are not attending certain games.

 

[majormajor]

You're right. In my lame defence, I could say that I own properties in Goodyear and Mesa and consider them separate towns.

But perhaps what I should have said was "move to another arena" and that pretty much rules out Scottsdale and environs because nobody's building arenas in this economy. Especially casino owners whose fortunes are shrivelling.

Not sure I buy your champion t-shirt factor. Given the profit margin on a shirt, selling 2 million more of them in one market over another is chicken-feed compared to the expense of operating an NHL franchise. No disrespect to chickens.

In my opinion, Quebec City is not going to get a franchise for reasons of the province's politics and personalities. As for why teams keep staying, in Florida and Dallas it's because of billionaires with big bank accounts and bigger egos. In Arizona, it's a complete mystery -- which of course opens the door for endless theories, conspiracies, speculations, spreadsheets, bullsheets, and bored old guys who hang around in here.

Dallas has often had very good operating income.

Arizona still has a franchise because Bettman and co. have worked tirelessly to save it. There hasn't always been the money, there might not be now. I'm not sure why Atlanta didn't get a similar benefit, it also had a struggling team in an overly sprawling sunbelt metro. I think part of it is that Arizona is a popular place for league players and execs and folks like yourself to live and go golfing, it's part of their world.

Still there might come a time where they can't stitch together an ownership group to stomach those losses. If that happens I don't think Bettman and co. will want the team going to Quebec. It doesn't suit their vision for broadening the league's appeal, and they're very wary of language and the politics surrounding it. That's unfortunate to my mind, I'd much rather see a team there with a loud building and a hockey-mad fanbase.

 

[TheLegend]

Coyotes moving to Quebec City would be awesome. For sure I’d be taking at least one trip (from Vancouver) per season to watch a home stand. Fabulous city to visit, and having NHL games as the trip focus would be the best. Would be very difficult to get tickets though. Likely have to buy from season ticket holders, who are not attending certain games.

Buy the team and move them then.

 

[BKIslandersFan]

Coyotes moving to Quebec City would be awesome. For sure I’d be taking at least one trip (from Vancouver) per season to watch a home stand. Fabulous city to visit, and having NHL games as the trip focus would be the best. Would be very difficult to get tickets though. Likely have to buy from season ticket holders, who are not attending certain games.

I think Canucks moving to QCis even better tbh.

 

[GindyDraws]

I think Canucks moving to QCis even better tbh.

I think every Canadian team moving to Quebec City is the best option.

 

[BKIslandersFan]

I think every Canadian team moving to Quebec City is the best option.

Lets get crackin!

 

[ponder719]

I'm not sure why Atlanta didn't get a similar benefit, it also had a struggling team in an overly sprawling sunbelt metro.

In Arizona, there has been a relatively consistent series of suckers people willing to own the franchise, and an arena for them to play in.

When ASG pulled the plug, those conditions did not exist in Atlanta. My understanding is they retained control of the only viable arena, put in only a cursory effort to find someone willing to own them as a tenant in said arena, and basically dumped the keys on Gary's desk and said "Your problem now."

 

[majormajor]

In Arizona, there has been a relatively consistent series of suckers people willing to own the franchise, and an arena for them to play in.

When ASG pulled the plug, those conditions did not exist in Atlanta. My understanding is they retained control of the only viable arena, put in only a cursory effort to find someone willing to own them as a tenant in said arena, and basically dumped the keys on Gary's desk and said "Your problem now."

Didn't the NHL run the Coyotes for like a year at one point?

 

[TheLegend]

Didn't the NHL run the Coyotes for like a year at one point?

Four. One during the bankruptcy hearings and three more afterwards.

 

[FMichael]

Four. One during the bankruptcy hearings and three more afterwards.

And the city of Glendale tax payers covered the losses in upwards of $20 million annually

 

[TheLegend]

And the city of Glendale tax payers covered the losses in upwards of $20 million annually

$25 million. For each of two years. For operating the arena.

Today they pay roughly $5.5 million per year for arena operations.

 

[MNNumbers]

$25 million. For each of two years. For operating the arena.

Today they pay roughly $5.5 million per year for arena operations.

Which is surprising on a few levels. Not least of which is that, up until the BK, GRA out performed TSRA as a venue for non-sporting events by a large margin. Today, the opposite is true, and that leads to COG paying the roughly 5.5M for arena operations.

It's actually a more complicated arrangement that COG has with their operator. I think it goes something like:
COG pays 5.6M into an operating fund.
Anything more that is required comes out of ASM Global's pocket.
If there anything left in the fund (proceeds go back into the fund), ASM gets the first cut, COG the 2nd, and it's shared up to a point after that.

Likely, COG doesn't get much back.

Remember that the original Coyotes lease had no operations fee. The Coyotes organization, who managed the place, was on their own. Profit? They kept it. Loss? It was on them.

 

[Anisimovs AK]

Well, yes and no.

They are trying to generate a bigger national TV deal by having a bigger footprint in bigger American markets. They are trying to make the league less gate-driven.

As a Quebec City guy, it sucks. But the strategy makes sense. Is it working? No. Could it be revised? Probably. However, we have to be realistic, coming to Quebec City does not help the NHL grow. It COULD very well stabilize a franchise, but, long term, the upside is not huge. Quebec City is what it is and demand here will never be higher.

In what way is it not working? The NHL made about $50 million from media rights in 92 when Bettman came on board, and now makes $800 million a year.

 

[Scandale du Jour]

In what way is it not working? The NHL made about $50 million from media rights in 92 when Bettman came on board, and now makes $800 million a year.

Many markets are failing and these markets are not the reason why TV revenues exploded. TV revenues exploded because the whole media landscape changed.

Heck, if anything, the failed market are part of why the NHL is lagging behind other sports when it comes to their revenue structure. That being said, it has more to do with the fact that hockey is a niche sport in the US than to any failed strategy.

 

[Anisimovs AK]

Many markets are failing and these markets are not the reason why TV revenues exploded. TV revenues exploded because the whole media landscape changed.

Heck, if anything, the failed market are part of why the NHL is lagging behind other sports when it comes to their revenue structure. That being said, it has more to do with the fact that hockey is a niche sport in the US than to any failed strategy.

Sure dude. Is that why they didnt even have an American tv contract before the 90's expansion?


Besides Arizona and Florida, what US markets are failing?

$5 billion in revenue is pretty nice for a niche sport

 

[TheLegend]

Which is surprising on a few levels. Not least of which is that, up until the BK, GRA out performed TSRA as a venue for non-sporting events by a large margin. Today, the opposite is true, and that leads to COG paying the roughly 5.5M for arena operations.

It's actually a more complicated arrangement that COG has with their operator. I think it goes something like:
COG pays 5.6M into an operating fund.
Anything more that is required comes out of ASM Global's pocket.
If there anything left in the fund (proceeds go back into the fund), ASM gets the first cut, COG the 2nd, and it's shared up to a point after that.

Likely, COG doesn't get much back.

Remember that the original Coyotes lease had no operations fee. The Coyotes organization, who managed the place, was on their own. Profit? They kept it. Loss? It was on them.

I remember that. Glendale only received the surcharge on each event ticket sold. And in the beginning it more than covered their bond obligations.

Also seem to recall ASM Global (AEG back then) handled the management of the arena for Ellman/Moyes

 

[Stumbledore]

Sure dude. Is that why they didnt even have an American tv contract before the 90's expansion?

Besides Arizona and Florida, what US markets are failing?

$5 billion in revenue is pretty nice for a niche sport

The $5 billion in revenue (actually $5.232 billion Canadian spread over 12 years) is what Rogers paid the NHL for media rights in Canada.

If you think that hockey is a niche sport in Canada, I'm afraid I have nothing more to say to you.

 

[Boxscore]

Things on my bucket list:

An NHL franchise returning to Quebec

 

[Dirty Old Man]

If you think that hockey is a niche sport in Canada, I'm afraid I have nothing more to say to you.

Give it time. Given the trends up there that Canadians complain about in the main board in declining youth hockey, increase in soccer and basketball, and *gasp* immigration...

 

[Boxscore]

Give it time. Given the trends up there that Canadians complain about in the main board in declining youth hockey, increase in soccer and basketball, and *gasp* immigration...

There is validity in this. I've been going to Canada for hockey every year, religiously, since 1992. I have seen a DRASTIC change in "hockey significance" in major cities like Montreal, Toronto and Ottawa. Now, the smaller towns might still be "all hockey" but these once hockey-crazed cities have changed.

 

[BKIslandersFan]

The $5 billion in revenue (actually $5.232 billion Canadian spread over 12 years) is what Rogers paid the NHL for media rights in Canada.

If you think that hockey is a niche sport in Canada, I'm afraid I have nothing more to say to you.

I think their their ANNUAL revenue is $5B.

 

[Anisimovs AK]

The $5 billion in revenue (actually $5.232 billion Canadian spread over 12 years) is what Rogers paid the NHL for media rights in Canada.

If you think that hockey is a niche sport in Canada, I'm afraid I have nothing more to say to you.

Im talking about the league's revenue from the last fiscal year, not the total value of the Canadian tv contract signed 6 years ago.

Thanks for playing though