Player Discussion: Martin Jones

[NWSharkie]

Could it be a coaching issue? I know Hedberg's been here since 2015, so it's not likely that he suddenly can't coach anymore, but were there any changes made last off-season that might explain a problem with both goalies?

 

[Pinkfloyd]

Based on stats from Natural Stat Trick, we are 14th worst in the league for HDCA (558) but 3rd worst at HDSV% (.79). So, basically we are pretty much close to league average for high danger chances but one of the worst at making saves in those cases.

It's weird because when the team locks it down, the goaltending doesn't seem to cost them but when the team gets loose, it can't cover for them. I think they're in the average because they're pretty Jeckyll & Hyde when it comes to their defensive play. They can absolutely lock it down when they want to and it helps when they don't turn pucks over at the blue line. But we've all seen the alarming amount of odd-man rushes they give up. There are times where the goaltending just gives up bad goals that don't involve odd-man rushes or any of that and that's an issue but I think it's an exaggerated issue. But even if it was as bad as advertised, the only response especially now is to prevent the odd-man rushes rather than expect a goalie to save your bacon for you when they haven't so far.

 

[Pinkfloyd]

Could it be a coaching issue? I know Hedberg's been here since 2015, so it's not likely that he suddenly can't coach anymore, but were there any changes made last off-season that might explain a problem with both goalies?

It's more or less been this way since the system change last year, imo. There is also the pad changes that took effect this year but I think it's mostly system-based.

 

[Fistfullofbeer]

It's weird because when the team locks it down, the goaltending doesn't seem to cost them but when the team gets loose, it can't cover for them. I think they're in the average because they're pretty Jeckyll & Hyde when it comes to their defensive play. They can absolutely lock it down when they want to and it helps when they don't turn pucks over at the blue line. But we've all seen the alarming amount of odd-man rushes they give up. There are times where the goaltending just gives up bad goals that don't involve odd-man rushes or any of that and that's an issue but I think it's an exaggerated issue. But even if it was as bad as advertised, the only response especially now is to prevent the odd-man rushes rather than expect a goalie to save your bacon for you when they haven't so far.

You mentioned a few weeks back about the team needing to adjust their style to help Jones out. I really don't agree with the team adjusting its style because of the way the goalie has been playing but I do agree with you that locking defensive play down may be the best option for us going forward this season. Jones cannot be trusted with the HDCA's and the best way for the team to win is minimize that altogether by playing a more lockdown style.

The stat that Randy has talked about repeatedly this year is our wins when we have given 2 goals or less. Honestly, that is the best way forward for us this year. Minimize opponents scoring and capitalize on their mistakes/turnovers. Basically, do what other teams are doing to us.

 

[Pinkfloyd]

You mentioned a few weeks back about the team needing to adjust their style to help Jones out. I really don't agree with the team adjusting its style because of the way the goalie has been playing but I do agree with you that locking defensive play down may be the best option for us going forward this season. Jones cannot be trusted with the HDCA's and the best way for the team to win is minimize that altogether by playing a more lockdown style.

The stat that Randy has talked about repeatedly this year is our wins when we have given 2 goals or less. Honestly, that is the best way forward for us this year. Minimize opponents scoring and capitalize on their mistakes/turnovers. Basically, do what other teams are doing to us.

People hate the idea because of how it sounds but I think playing conservatively is their best bet. They should risk less and rely more on their ability to move the puck when they get it and possess the puck. I don't think their possession numbers are predicated on the pinches in the neutral zone that have burned them many times before. Also, if they stop forcing pucks through players then the turnovers would be minimized.

 

[treefiddy]

Based on stats from Natural Stat Trick, we are 14th worst in the league for HDCA (558) but 3rd worst at HDSV% (.79). So, basically we are pretty much close to league average for high danger chances but one of the worst at making saves in those cases.

The stats don't paint the entire picture though.

A good picture would be the at home versus the Bruins. We played loose defensively and 3 goals came in a span of 5 minutes. After that we went lock down and allowed 8 total shots over two periods. Two goals came during that stretch. 1 was on a powerplay very early in that stretch. The other was a bullshit high touch that should have been called.

When the defense goes lock down, we can allow 20 or less shots and 2 or less goals per game.

When the defense plays loose, we can give up 10+ odd man rushes / breakaways in a freakin period and allow 2-3 goals over that span.

I will say, one of the biggest contributing factors to those rushes, are perimeter shots that get blocked. The other is east west passes that become turnovers in our defensive zone.

The system needs an overhaul. Scoring 6 goals is nice, but our magic number is 3 or less goals allowed. We can score 3-4 goals without having to run and gun on offense.

 

[Used As A Shield]

Seriously, we can't rely on perfect defense 100% of the time, it just is not sustainable. Especially when the opponent gets aggressive looking for turnovers and such. This system is just exacerbating the problem. It also probably destroys any confidence our goalies have in themselves/and or skaters confidence in our goalies. On the same token though, our defense is primarily stick checks and pokes, and when we miss the players blow right past for an open lane to the net. This does start in the neutral zone though, when we aren't limiting entry speed. If the team would play the man over the puck in more instances i think the team would do better overall, but have less quick turnovers for scoring chances.

 

[OrrNumber4]

Did you watch him much? All he did was let in crappy goals. Geez he let in the most famous goal in Sharks history on a dumb play as a rookie. He was incredibly mediocre.

One play does not a goalie make.

Back on topic, look at the recent Bruins games...some of those goals might have been a little week, but Jones made several HUGE stops including some nice saves on several odd-man rushes. The save percentage in no way reflected his play this game.

 

[Pinkfloyd]

Seriously, we can't rely on perfect defense 100% of the time, it just is not sustainable. Especially when the opponent gets aggressive looking for turnovers and such. This system is just exacerbating the problem. It also probably destroys any confidence our goalies have in themselves/and or skaters confidence in our goalies. On the same token though, our defense is primarily stick checks and pokes, and when we miss the players blow right past for an open lane to the net. This does start in the neutral zone though, when we aren't limiting entry speed. If the team would play the man over the puck in more instances i think the team would do better overall, but have less quick turnovers for scoring chances.

Giving up the amount of odd-man rushes and breakaways that they do is not sustainable either. You're not asking to have perfect defense 100% of the time. You're asking them to limit the risks to something more reasonable. You absolutely can prevent a significant amount of the breaks against the team with a system change and less of a reliance on point shots, stopping the bad line changes, and not letting opponents leak behind them because they're late getting back or not covering a pinch. These are all easily preventable things to do to limit chances against and limit the types of chances against that have killed them when they get loose.

 

[TomasHertlsRooster]

Seriously, we can't rely on perfect defense 100% of the time, it just is not sustainable. Especially when the opponent gets aggressive looking for turnovers and such. This system is just exacerbating the problem. It also probably destroys any confidence our goalies have in themselves/and or skaters confidence in our goalies. On the same token though, our defense is primarily stick checks and pokes, and when we miss the players blow right past for an open lane to the net. This does start in the neutral zone though, when we aren't limiting entry speed. If the team would play the man over the puck in more instances i think the team would do better overall, but have less quick turnovers for scoring chances.

In order to win in the playoffs, you absolutely need to play strong team defense.

Look at Washington last year. They shut out Tampa in game 6 and game 7 in the ECF. 120 straight minutes of shutout hockey against the Tampa Bay Lightning in Tampa’s two biggest games of the season.

Then there is Vegas, who allowed 3 goals in 4 games against LA, and then shut us out in game 1 and game 6 last year. And then they went against Winnipeg, had a bad game 1, and then held Winnipeg to 6 goals over the next 4 games.

Then look at Pittsburgh of 2017. They were missing Kris Letang and they had Brian Dumolin in their top pairing, but they still made a strong commitment to team defense. Not only did they shut out an extremely potent Washington offense in their own building in game 7, they held them to 6 shots on goals in the 3rd period. In a game where they led.

Then look at 2016. Pittsburgh didn’t even win that Cup Final series because of Crosby, Malkin, or Kessel. They won that series because they completely shut down our dominant top line and held us to 2 or fewer goals in 4 of the 6 games. Some of that might be due to Hertl’s absence, or Pavelski’s concussion, but give credit where it is due. Their goaltending was hardly spectacular in that series either but they really didn’t need it to be.

Or look at our run to the finals...yes, the defining factor was the top line, Brent Burns, and Logan Couture. But Vlasic/Braun shut down every one of Kopitar, Forsberg, Tarasenko, and Crosby, and Jones was strong when he needed to be.

In the 4 games we won against LA, they scored 9 goals. In the 4 games we won against Nashville, they scored 5 goals. In the 4 games we won against St. Louis, they scored 5 goals. LA’s defense was leaky enough and Burns/Pavelski were strong enough that we could win a couple games while allowing 3 goals, but we completely shut down Nashville and St. Louis’s offense in the games that we won in every series.

Much can be said about Jones’ poor play this season and I’m inclined to agree with the takes on him being bad this season but even a Conn Smythe performance from him won’t save the team if they don’t tighten up defensively. And if the Sharks aren’t able to tighten up defensively, they will need to bet on being one of the highest scoring Cup winners in recent memory. I don’t think they have the top end talent up front to do that.

 

[Fistfullofbeer]

The stats don't paint the entire picture though.

A good picture would be the at home versus the Bruins. We played loose defensively and 3 goals came in a span of 5 minutes. After that we went lock down and allowed 8 total shots over two periods. Two goals came during that stretch. 1 was on a powerplay very early in that stretch. The other was a bull**** high touch that should have been called.

When the defense goes lock down, we can allow 20 or less shots and 2 or less goals per game.

When the defense plays loose, we can give up 10+ odd man rushes / breakaways in a freakin period and allow 2-3 goals over that span.

I will say, one of the biggest contributing factors to those rushes, are perimeter shots that get blocked. The other is east west passes that become turnovers in our defensive zone.

The system needs an overhaul. Scoring 6 goals is nice, but our magic number is 3 or less goals allowed. We can score 3-4 goals without having to run and gun on offense.

The stats do paint the picture that our goalies are not good against high danger chances. That is not something you can argue against.

The rest of all that you have said pretty much aligns with what @Pinkfloyd had previously said, and I agree with. i.e Since our goalies are not good against HDCA, we need to play the system that tightens that down and does not expose the goalies as much.

 

[treefiddy]

The stats do paint the picture that our goalies are not good against high danger chances. That is not something you can argue against.

The rest of all that you have said pretty much aligns with what @Pinkfloyd had previously said, and I agree with. i.e Since our goalies are not good against HDCA, we need to play the system that tightens that down and does not expose the goalies as much.

Our goalies are definitely lacking in the high danger save %, but they also seem to face a lot in clusters after seeing very few shots over long stretches. I have no numbers to back this up other than what I've seen, but it seems like they are facing almost nothing for 5-10 minutes and then BAM 2v1, breakaway, 2v1.

 

[Used As A Shield]

Giving up the amount of odd-man rushes and breakaways that they do is not sustainable either. You're not asking to have perfect defense 100% of the time. You're asking them to limit the risks to something more reasonable. You absolutely can prevent a significant amount of the breaks against the team with a system change and less of a reliance on point shots, stopping the bad line changes, and not letting opponents leak behind them because they're late getting back or not covering a pinch. These are all easily preventable things to do to limit chances against and limit the types of chances against that have killed them when they get loose.

In order to win in the playoffs, you absolutely need to play strong team defense.

Look at Washington last year. They shut out Tampa in game 6 and game 7 in the ECF. 120 straight minutes of shutout hockey against the Tampa Bay Lightning in Tampa’s two biggest games of the season.

Then there is Vegas, who allowed 3 goals in 4 games against LA, and then shut us out in game 1 and game 6 last year. And then they went against Winnipeg, had a bad game 1, and then held Winnipeg to 6 goals over the next 4 games.

Then look at Pittsburgh of 2017. They were missing Kris Letang and they had Brian Dumolin in their top pairing, but they still made a strong commitment to team defense. Not only did they shut out an extremely potent Washington offense in their own building in game 7, they held them to 6 shots on goals in the 3rd period. In a game where they led.

Then look at 2016. Pittsburgh didn’t even win that Cup Final series because of Crosby, Malkin, or Kessel. They won that series because they completely shut down our dominant top line and held us to 2 or fewer goals in 4 of the 6 games. Some of that might be due to Hertl’s absence, or Pavelski’s concussion, but give credit where it is due. Their goaltending was hardly spectacular in that series either but they really didn’t need it to be.

Or look at our run to the finals...yes, the defining factor was the top line, Brent Burns, and Logan Couture. But Vlasic/Braun shut down every one of Kopitar, Forsberg, Tarasenko, and Crosby, and Jones was strong when he needed to be.

In the 4 games we won against LA, they scored 9 goals. In the 4 games we won against Nashville, they scored 5 goals. In the 4 games we won against St. Louis, they scored 5 goals. LA’s defense was leaky enough and Burns/Pavelski were strong enough that we could win a couple games while allowing 3 goals, but we completely shut down Nashville and St. Louis’s offense in the games that we won in every series.

Much can be said about Jones’ poor play this season and I’m inclined to agree with the takes on him being bad this season but even a Conn Smythe performance from him won’t save the team if they don’t tighten up defensively. And if the Sharks aren’t able to tighten up defensively, they will need to bet on being one of the highest scoring Cup winners in recent memory. I don’t think they have the top end talent up front to do that.

I think we are all arguing the same thing, no? Sorry, not enough coffee today.

 

[Doctor Soraluce]

One play does not a goalie make.

That was simply an example. One play can be used an example of the type of goalie he was. Let in lots of softies and was emotionally fragile. That's why Vernon was brought in and then why he was replaced later on in his career.

 

[tiburon12]

Ok, so has the board finally come around to the ideas that:

• Jones isnt terrible
• Poor team defense is leading to Jones being hung out to dry multiple times per game
• Jones still needs to make one or two more big saves a game (and not poke check any more!)

I really want these Jones threads and "game threads that devolve into Jones talk" to end

 

[LA Shark]

Ok, so has the board finally come around to the ideas that:

• Jones isnt terrible
• Poor team defense is leading to Jones being hung out to dry multiple times per game
• Jones still needs to make one or two more big saves a game (and not poke check any more!)

I really want these Jones threads and "game threads that devolve into Jones talk" to end

Add in stop letting in as many softies and I'm good. Jones isn't the type of goalie that's going to make the highlight reel saves, so he needs to let in less softies than he has been this year. He has inarguably let in too many soft goals this year.

 

[WSS11]

It's weird because when the team locks it down, the goaltending doesn't seem to cost them but when the team gets loose, it can't cover for them. I think they're in the average because they're pretty Jeckyll & Hyde when it comes to their defensive play. They can absolutely lock it down when they want to and it helps when they don't turn pucks over at the blue line. But we've all seen the alarming amount of odd-man rushes they give up. There are times where the goaltending just gives up bad goals that don't involve odd-man rushes or any of that and that's an issue but I think it's an exaggerated issue. But even if it was as bad as advertised, the only response especially now is to prevent the odd-man rushes rather than expect a goalie to save your bacon for you when they haven't so far.

I think this is spot on. When the sharks have played a responsible game in the neutral and defensive zones goaltending has been fine. It’s no coincidence that Dell and Jones numbers have equally gone to shit as a whole this year. Way too many turnovers at the blue line leading to what has to be a league lead in odd man rushes against. Jones and Dell need to be better but the team needs to tighten up like they did during Deboers first season here

 

[tiburon12]

Add in stop letting in as many softies and I'm good. Jones isn't the type of goalie that's going to make the highlight reel saves, so he needs to let in less softies than he has been this year. He has inarguably let in too many soft goals this year.

totally. His budget should be one softie a week, with no rollover

 

[TomasHertlsRooster]

Ok, so has the board finally come around to the ideas that:

• Jones isnt terrible
• Poor team defense is leading to Jones being hung out to dry multiple times per game
• Jones still needs to make one or two more big saves a game (and not poke check any more!)

I really want these Jones threads and "game threads that devolve into Jones talk" to end

Regardless of my thoughts on team defense, Jones has been very bad this season.

 

[Bleedred]

If you really expect to convince me the defense is the reason Jones has been bad this season, then why do goalies that play behind teams that virtually everyone agrees are much worse than this year's Sharks, play better than Jones this year? Why does Jacob Markstrom save a higher percentage of shots than Jones? You gonna tell me the Canucks have a better defense/team defense? How about Coyotes goalies? They have a better defense too? Kings goalies (not named Jonathan Quick) have been better than Jones, are they a better defensive team? How about Ottawa? Craig Anderson has been better than Jones all year, Jones plays behind a worse team than him? Frickin Jimmy Howard has been better this year! Is it that superstar defense up in Detroit? Or is Jeff Blashill just a masterful tactician, that really deserves the Jack Adams because the Red Wings aren't going to finish with the worst record in the NHL in the last 20 years? Speaking of the worst team in the last 20 years, the 48 point Colorado Avalanche of 2016-2017 had a higher combined team save percentage than your 2018-2019 San Jose Sharks. Were they a better defensive team too?

If you really think the defense is the reason Jones (and Dell) sucks this year, then you're also pretty much saying that this team isn't that good, they're an overrated team and they're the biggest pretender in the league. Now if you really believe that, then I guess I can't fault you for blaming the team for the goalie woes, but you can't say this is a good team and then blame their play for the goalies being almost historically poor. You can't have it both ways.

 

[treefiddy]

If you really expect to convince me the defense is the reason Jones has been bad this season, then why do goalies that play behind teams that virtually everyone agrees are much worse than this year's Sharks, play better than Jones this year? Why does Jacob Markstrom save a higher percentage of shots than Jones? You gonna tell me the Canucks have a better defense/team defense? How about Coyotes goalies? They have a better defense too? Kings goalies (not named Jonathan Quick) have been better than Jones, are they a better defensive team? How about Ottawa? Craig Anderson has been better than Jones all year, Jones plays behind a worse team than him? Frickin Jimmy Howard has been better this year! Is it that superstar defense up in Detroit? Or is Jeff Blashill just a masterful tactician, that really deserves the Jack Adams because the Red Wings aren't going to finish with the worst record in the NHL in the last 20 years? Speaking of the worst team in the last 20 years, the 48 point Colorado Avalanche of 2016-2017 had a higher combined team save percentage than your 2018-2019 San Jose Sharks. Were they a better defensive team too?

If you really think the defense is the reason Jones (and Dell) sucks this year, then you're also pretty much saying that this team isn't that good, they're an overrated team and they're the biggest pretender in the league. Now if you really believe that, then I guess I can't fault you for blaming the team for the goalie woes, but you can't say this is a good team and then blame their play for the goalies being almost historically poor. You can't have it both ways.

It’s simple. Our defense on paper is all world. Our defense (this includes the forwards) when responsible is easily tops in the league. Our defense when it jerks off for periods of time mid game looks like the worst defense in the league.

Mix those up in a bowl and you get an average defense that appears better statistically than it looks to the eye.

The goalies make the stops when the defense is on (with an occasional softy) and get blown up when the defense allows an odd man rush a minute for an entire 10 minute stretch.

 

[LA Shark]

Jones-Bad
Defense-Bad

The two are not mutually exclusive.

 

[tiburon12]

If you really expect to convince me the defense is the reason Jones has been bad this season, then why do goalies that play behind teams that virtually everyone agrees are much worse than this year's Sharks, play better than Jones this year? Why does Jacob Markstrom save a higher percentage of shots than Jones? You gonna tell me the Canucks have a better defense/team defense? How about Coyotes goalies? They have a better defense too? Kings goalies (not named Jonathan Quick) have been better than Jones, are they a better defensive team? How about Ottawa? Craig Anderson has been better than Jones all year, Jones plays behind a worse team than him? Frickin Jimmy Howard has been better this year! Is it that superstar defense up in Detroit? Or is Jeff Blashill just a masterful tactician, that really deserves the Jack Adams because the Red Wings aren't going to finish with the worst record in the NHL in the last 20 years? Speaking of the worst team in the last 20 years, the 48 point Colorado Avalanche of 2016-2017 had a higher combined team save percentage than your 2018-2019 San Jose Sharks. Were they a better defensive team too?

If you really think the defense is the reason Jones (and Dell) sucks this year, then you're also pretty much saying that this team isn't that good, they're an overrated team and they're the biggest pretender in the league. Now if you really believe that, then I guess I can't fault you for blaming the team for the goalie woes, but you can't say this is a good team and then blame their play for the goalies being almost historically poor. You can't have it both ways.

When the Sharks are in full offense mode, which they are frequently, they give up a crazy amount of odd man rushes against and have defensive relapses. If you look at the goals he allows at 5v5, the overwhelming majority of goals against are from odd man rushes against or major defensive miscues. He's has let up soft goals and rarely makes a big save off those odd man rushes . Both need to be improved.

Otherwise he has been fine and has been good enough for the sharks to win games.

Given that we know the majority of his goals against are from odd man rushes and defensive miscues, we can assume to a reasonable level of accuracy that better defense would result in better stats for Jones.

With better defensive play, he can have the stats of a league average goalie, which is what he is, and is what the sharks can win with

 

[LeftHeartInSF]

Playoff Jones better emerge from hibernation soon. Its getting towards Spring.

 

[DeadGhost]

Playoff Jones better emerge from hibernation soon. Its getting towards Spring.

I think (I hope) it's brewing. The shutout in Columbus and then a solid outing (as solid as 4 goals allowed can be) with no support in Boston. If he allows 2 or fewer tonight I'm feeling okay moving forward.