Player Discussion: Martin Jones

Patty Ice

Straight to the Banc
Feb 27, 2002
13,854
3,341
Not California
If you really expect to convince me the defense is the reason Jones has been bad this season, then why do goalies that play behind teams that virtually everyone agrees are much worse than this year's Sharks, play better than Jones this year? Why does Jacob Markstrom save a higher percentage of shots than Jones? You gonna tell me the Canucks have a better defense/team defense? How about Coyotes goalies? They have a better defense too? Kings goalies (not named Jonathan Quick) have been better than Jones, are they a better defensive team? How about Ottawa? Craig Anderson has been better than Jones all year, Jones plays behind a worse team than him? Frickin Jimmy Howard has been better this year! Is it that superstar defense up in Detroit? Or is Jeff Blashill just a masterful tactician, that really deserves the Jack Adams because the Red Wings aren't going to finish with the worst record in the NHL in the last 20 years? Speaking of the worst team in the last 20 years, the 48 point Colorado Avalanche of 2016-2017 had a higher combined team save percentage than your 2018-2019 San Jose Sharks. Were they a better defensive team too?

If you really think the defense is the reason Jones (and Dell) sucks this year, then you're also pretty much saying that this team isn't that good, they're an overrated team and they're the biggest pretender in the league. Now if you really believe that, then I guess I can't fault you for blaming the team for the goalie woes, but you can't say this is a good team and then blame their play for the goalies being almost historically poor. You can't have it both ways.

If I could like this a thousand times I would.
 

Lebanezer

I'unno? Coast Guard?
Jul 24, 2006
14,756
10,263
San Jose
Here's a table of stats to show how Jones compares to 14 other goalies who have started 40 or more games. I've included their stats in all situations and just at 5 on 5. The stats are from Natural Stat Trick, which does not qualify what they consider a high danger shot. With that being said, the Sharks don't allow significantly more high danger shots than most teams with Jones in net while allowing the fewest low danger shots in both all situations and at 5 on 5. Jones has the worst save percentage of the all the goalies listed on low danger shots in all situations, at 5 on 5 only Bobrovsky has a worse save percentage, but Bob more than makes up for it with his high danger save percentage. Jones is the only goalie who's save percentage goes done from all situations to 5 on 5. Team defense is an issue for this team, but Jones' inability to make more saves on low danger shots is a bigger problem. His high danger save percentage is decent in all situations, but at 5 on 5, it's bad, and if you couple that with his low danger save percentage, it's clear why he gives up so many goals.


Name (All situations)GPHDSA/GLDSA/GHDSV%LDSV%SV% All situations
Martin Jones488.619.14.814.934.896
Marc-Andre Fleury547.620.4.781.955.908
Devan Dubnyk536.222.802.943.912
Carey Price507.522.3.829.947.917
Connor Hellebuyck48824.5.794.947.910
Sergei Bobrovsky478.120.4.850.941.907
Frederik Andersen46825.2.813.958.923
John Gibson4610.121.1.845.947.914
Pekka Rinne45819.5.846.942.914
Braden Holtby459.521.67.811.951.908
Semyon Varlamov437.9722.5.816.945.911
Henrik Lundqvist438.623.7.827.936.907
Jimmy Howard438.2821.6.834.935.907
Andrei Vasilevskiy408.0524.63.823.964.930
Name (5 on 5)GPHDSA/GLDSA/GHDSV%LDSV%SV% 5 on 5
Martin Jones486.4815.794.939.895
Marc-Andre Fleury545.8916.2.792.956.914
Devan Dubnyk534.916.5.800.952.917
Carey Price505.817.34.828.960.927
Connor Hellebuyck486.0818.75.801.952.915
Sergei Bobrovsky476.5717.04.854.935.913
Frederik Andersen466.2320.65.829.966.935
John Gibson467.216.2.849.958.925
Pekka Rinne456.315.6.874.953.930
Braden Holtby457.417.3.814.965.920
Semyon Varlamov435.8816.9.830.956.923
Henrik Lundqvist436.5318.4.836.951.921
Jimmy Howard436.3217.1.849.951.923
Andrei Vasilevskiy406.2318.85.811.971.931
[TBODY] [/TBODY]
 

hohosaregood

Banned
Sep 1, 2011
32,280
12,444
Here's a table of stats to show how Jones compares to 14 other goalies who have started 40 or more games. I've included their stats in all situations and just at 5 on 5. The stats are from Natural Stat Trick, which does not qualify what they consider a high danger shot. With that being said, the Sharks don't allow significantly more high danger shots than most teams with Jones in net while allowing the fewest low danger shots in both all situations and at 5 on 5. Jones has the worst save percentage of the all the goalies listed on low danger shots in all situations, at 5 on 5 only Bobrovsky has a worse save percentage, but Bob more than makes up for it with his high danger save percentage. Jones is the only goalie who's save percentage goes done from all situations to 5 on 5. Team defense is an issue for this team, but Jones' inability to make more saves on low danger shots is a bigger problem. His high danger save percentage is decent in all situations, but at 5 on 5, it's bad, and if you couple that with his low danger save percentage, it's clear why he gives up so many goals.


Name (All situations)GPHDSA/GLDSA/GHDSV%LDSV%SV% All situations
Martin Jones488.619.14.814.934.896
Marc-Andre Fleury547.620.4.781.955.908
Devan Dubnyk536.222.802.943.912
Carey Price507.522.3.829.947.917
Connor Hellebuyck48824.5.794.947.910
Sergei Bobrovsky478.120.4.850.941.907
Frederik Andersen46825.2.813.958.923
John Gibson4610.121.1.845.947.914
Pekka Rinne45819.5.846.942.914
Braden Holtby459.521.67.811.951.908
Semyon Varlamov437.9722.5.816.945.911
Henrik Lundqvist438.623.7.827.936.907
Jimmy Howard438.2821.6.834.935.907
Andrei Vasilevskiy408.0524.63.823.964.930
Name (5 on 5)GPHDSA/GLDSA/GHDSV%LDSV%SV% 5 on 5
Martin Jones486.4815.794.939.895
Marc-Andre Fleury545.8916.2.792.956.914
Devan Dubnyk534.916.5.800.952.917
Carey Price505.817.34.828.960.927
Connor Hellebuyck486.0818.75.801.952.915
Sergei Bobrovsky476.5717.04.854.935.913
Frederik Andersen466.2320.65.829.966.935
John Gibson467.216.2.849.958.925
Pekka Rinne456.315.6.874.953.930
Braden Holtby457.417.3.814.965.920
Semyon Varlamov435.8816.9.830.956.923
Henrik Lundqvist436.5318.4.836.951.921
Jimmy Howard436.3217.1.849.951.923
Andrei Vasilevskiy406.2318.85.811.971.931
[TBODY] [/TBODY]
One thing worth pointing out is that Jones does face a pretty high percentage of HD shots against. Just doing a basic HDSA/SA and it accounts for ~30% of his shots against. Still, he's bottom 5 in just about every category regardless of quality.
 

gaucholoco3

Registered User
Jun 22, 2015
856
1,020
Here's a table of stats to show how Jones compares to 14 other goalies who have started 40 or more games. I've included their stats in all situations and just at 5 on 5. The stats are from Natural Stat Trick, which does not qualify what they consider a high danger shot. With that being said, the Sharks don't allow significantly more high danger shots than most teams with Jones in net while allowing the fewest low danger shots in both all situations and at 5 on 5. Jones has the worst save percentage of the all the goalies listed on low danger shots in all situations, at 5 on 5 only Bobrovsky has a worse save percentage, but Bob more than makes up for it with his high danger save percentage. Jones is the only goalie who's save percentage goes done from all situations to 5 on 5. Team defense is an issue for this team, but Jones' inability to make more saves on low danger shots is a bigger problem. His high danger save percentage is decent in all situations, but at 5 on 5, it's bad, and if you couple that with his low danger save percentage, it's clear why he gives up so many goals.


Name (All situations)GPHDSA/GLDSA/GHDSV%LDSV%SV% All situations
Martin Jones488.619.14.814.934.896
Marc-Andre Fleury547.620.4.781.955.908
Devan Dubnyk536.222.802.943.912
Carey Price507.522.3.829.947.917
Connor Hellebuyck48824.5.794.947.910
Sergei Bobrovsky478.120.4.850.941.907
Frederik Andersen46825.2.813.958.923
John Gibson4610.121.1.845.947.914
Pekka Rinne45819.5.846.942.914
Braden Holtby459.521.67.811.951.908
Semyon Varlamov437.9722.5.816.945.911
Henrik Lundqvist438.623.7.827.936.907
Jimmy Howard438.2821.6.834.935.907
Andrei Vasilevskiy408.0524.63.823.964.930
Name (5 on 5)GPHDSA/GLDSA/GHDSV%LDSV%SV% 5 on 5
Martin Jones486.4815.794.939.895
Marc-Andre Fleury545.8916.2.792.956.914
Devan Dubnyk534.916.5.800.952.917
Carey Price505.817.34.828.960.927
Connor Hellebuyck486.0818.75.801.952.915
Sergei Bobrovsky476.5717.04.854.935.913
Frederik Andersen466.2320.65.829.966.935
John Gibson467.216.2.849.958.925
Pekka Rinne456.315.6.874.953.930
Braden Holtby457.417.3.814.965.920
Semyon Varlamov435.8816.9.830.956.923
Henrik Lundqvist436.5318.4.836.951.921
Jimmy Howard436.3217.1.849.951.923
Andrei Vasilevskiy406.2318.85.811.971.931
[TBODY] [/TBODY]
Thank you for posting these stats. They paint a very clear picture of what is going on with Jones. His save percentage is not expected to be as high as all the other goalies because of the amount of HD chances he faces, but he is worst in the league on his LD SV%. This follows the eye test that he is letting in way too many soft goals (I believe this is a result of the pad changes and not being engaged by facing very little rubber). Also the fact that his HD SV % gets better on the Penalty Kill shows how bad he has been on odd man rushes against. There are not many odd man rushes on the Kill so his HD SV % is better.

The sharks don't give up a lot more HD chances against than other teams per game but the HD chances they give up are mostly odd man rushes which Jones has been horrible on. This is where some of the blame falls on the Sharks D. They absolutely need to clean up the odd man rushes against. However Jones is not off the hook, there is no excuse for having the worst LD SV%. I think the "playoff Jones" crowd will argue that these soft goals are a result of lack of focus by not seeing enough shots to be fully engaged during the regular season.

Since we are stuck with Jones we can only hope that his level of focus will clean up all these soft goals. That combined with a better commitment to team D as the playoffs come along, I can see a chance that Jones does not hold this team back from a cup but things definitely need to change
 

WSS11

Registered User
Oct 7, 2009
6,043
5,058



Haven’t been able to catch a game this year but Korenar looks to have great lateral movement. Hopefully he gets a chance within a year or 2
 
  • Like
Reactions: PacificOceanPotion

Alaskanice

Registered User
Sep 23, 2009
6,153
6,441
1 1/2 hours away
Korenar just may be that diamond in the rough and whichever scout found him, serious props.
I’m not down on Jones. He is the best goaltender to ever wear teal. He gives us the best chance in the playoffs and I will believe in him. He’s done it before and that’s all that I need.

Go Sharks!!
 

hohosaregood

Banned
Sep 1, 2011
32,280
12,444



Haven’t been able to catch a game this year but Korenar looks to have great lateral movement. Hopefully he gets a chance within a year or 2

Those highlights show some pretty solid puck tracking but it didn't really show him having to deal with a ton of traffic like the screens that have burned Jones. Seeing how Bibeau's numbers are starting to slip, there's a remote possibility where Korenar could usurp the NHL backup spot if Dell is set to leave. The question is if that is what's best for his development. He's still young and more playing time might be better for him than higher caliber competition, especially if he's gonna be our goalie of the future. It hasn't slowed down a guy like Saros though.
 

TomasHertlsRooster

Don’t say eye test when you mean points
May 14, 2012
33,360
25,417
Fremont, CA
Korenar just may be that diamond in the rough and whichever scout found him, serious props.
I’m not down on Jones. He is the best goaltender to ever wear teal. He gives us the best chance in the playoffs and I will believe in him. He’s done it before and that’s all that I need.

Go Sharks!!

Not even close. He’s having by far the worst regular season of any Sharks starting goalie since I started watching in 2010.
 

Ol Dirty Pirate

ft. 2 Chainz
Dec 16, 2002
726
53
208
Despite this god awful season, Jones might be my #1. Maybe Irbe. Nab's 5 hole always killed me. Niemi was horrible. Belfour can die. Kipper was 90% trash here. Vesa had a few nice runs. Shields pads, tho. Basically Nolan Schaefer is the best Sharks goalie of all time.
 

hohosaregood

Banned
Sep 1, 2011
32,280
12,444
Even though Niemi's last season here was statistically better, I don't think there was ever a performance that I thought was worse.
 
  • Like
Reactions: SjMilhouse

SnarkAttack

Registered Loser
Jan 18, 2011
3,241
1,645
East Bay, CA
That feeling when, after very brieflly looking at stats, your franchise's best goalie was Niemi or Boucher...

That being said, our best goalie was probably one of the ones from before the Sharks were a good team, and their numbers suffered.
 

TomasHertlsRooster

Don’t say eye test when you mean points
May 14, 2012
33,360
25,417
Fremont, CA
Even though Niemi's last season here was statistically better, I don't think there was ever a performance that I thought was worse.

I didn’t watch enough of that season to accurately judge, but all of the stats I’ve seen say Niemi was nowhere near as bad as Jones has been this season.

That feeling when, after very brieflly looking at stats, your franchise's best goalie was Niemi or Boucher...

That being said, our best goalie was probably one of the ones from before the Sharks were a good team, and their numbers suffered.

What stats? Nabokov was obviously the best goalie in franchise history. The only thing that brings Jones close is playoff performances. Outside of that, Jones is very comparable to Niemi.
 

hohosaregood

Banned
Sep 1, 2011
32,280
12,444
I didn’t watch enough of that season to accurately judge, but all of the stats I’ve seen say Niemi was nowhere near as bad as Jones has been this season.



What stats? Nabokov was obviously the best goalie in franchise history. The only thing that brings Jones close is playoff performances. Outside of that, Jones is very comparable to Niemi.
Part of it was just that Niemi was part of a bigger problem with the team. Like the way the team played was so boring and slow and they just played such an ineffective style. This year, even when Jones let's in softies, the team can overcome his failings. When Niemi screwed up, his softies turned into backbreakers because the team couldn't turn it around. Otherwise, I'm not gonna entertain any argument that Niemi was a better goalie despite having objectively better statistics than Jones mostly cuz I don't like him.
 

SnarkAttack

Registered Loser
Jan 18, 2011
3,241
1,645
East Bay, CA
What stats? Nabokov was obviously the best goalie in franchise history. The only thing that brings Jones close is playoff performances. Outside of that, Jones is very comparable to Niemi.

Just career GAA, save percentage, etc. as Sharks. I haven't found advanced stats that let me evaluate Niemi, Jones, and Nabokov all against each other. I spent very little time looking at anything, but Nabokov had 3 years of his Sharks career where his sv% was higher than Niemi's average.

I do think that Niemi's last couple of years were clunkers, and Nabby had some as well. Nabby was definitely a better goalie from the eye test, but some people forget how good Niemi was for a couple of years.
 

TomasHertlsRooster

Don’t say eye test when you mean points
May 14, 2012
33,360
25,417
Fremont, CA
Part of it was just that Niemi was part of a bigger problem with the team. Like the way the team played was so boring and slow and they just played such an ineffective style. This year, even when Jones let's in softies, the team can overcome his failings. When Niemi screwed up, his softies turned into backbreakers because the team couldn't turn it around. Otherwise, I'm not gonna entertain any argument that Niemi was a better goalie despite having objectively better statistics than Jones mostly cuz I don't like him.

Haha, fair enough.

I would entertain an argument that Jones has given the team a chance to win this season far more often than any statistic can quantify.

Just career GAA, save percentage, etc. as Sharks. I haven't found advanced stats that let me evaluate Niemi, Jones, and Nabokov all against each other. I spent very little time looking at anything, but Nabokov had 3 years of his Sharks career where his sv% was higher than Niemi's average.

I do think that Niemi's last couple of years were clunkers, and Nabby had some as well. Nabby was definitely a better goalie from the eye test, but some people forget how good Niemi was for a couple of years.

Yeah see I think people tend to underrate Niemi and overrate Jones around here. Niemi was ugly, he had an awkward style, we signed him as a UFA, and never went anywhere in the playoffs with him. Jones, meanwhile, has a good look, plays a similar style to Carey Price, we traded a 1st round pick for him, and he he took us to the finals in his first season here. When we first got Jones, it felt like “man, this guy is obviously better than Niemi”, and at the time, it was true. But things have changed and I don’t think the narrative has really adjusted to compensate for it.

The reality is that both of these guys were roughly league average in every regular season they played here outside of one season for each goalie. Niemi’s one season where he was far from average, he was a Vezina finalist. Jones’ one season where he has been far from average is this season where he’s one of the worst goalies in the NHL.

After factoring in playoffs, I wouldn’t blame anybody for saying Jones over Niemi - I would actually agree with them - but it’s closer than people seek to acknowledge.
 

SnarkAttack

Registered Loser
Jan 18, 2011
3,241
1,645
East Bay, CA
Haha, fair enough.

I would entertain an argument that Jones has given the team a chance to win this season far more often than any statistic can quantify.



Yeah see I think people tend to underrate Niemi and overrate Jones around here. Niemi was ugly, he had an awkward style, we signed him as a UFA, and never went anywhere in the playoffs with him. Jones, meanwhile, has a good look, plays a similar style to Carey Price, we traded a 1st round pick for him, and he he took us to the finals in his first season here. When we first got Jones, it felt like “man, this guy is obviously better than Niemi”, and at the time, it was true. But things have changed and I don’t think the narrative has really adjusted to compensate for it.

The reality is that both of these guys were roughly league average in every regular season they played here outside of one season for each goalie. Niemi’s one season where he was far from average, he was a Vezina finalist. Jones’ one season where he has been far from average is this season where he’s one of the worst goalies in the NHL.

After factoring in playoffs, I wouldn’t blame anybody for saying Jones over Niemi - I would actually agree with them - but it’s closer than people seek to acknowledge.

If we had Niemi/Jones in a good year, or prime Nabby, I'd feel like the Sharks would easily be the favorites in the west.
 

DG93

Registered User
Jun 29, 2010
4,343
2,244
San Jose
Korenar just may be that diamond in the rough and whichever scout found him, serious props.
I’m not down on Jones. He is the best goaltender to ever wear teal. He gives us the best chance in the playoffs and I will believe in him. He’s done it before and that’s all that I need.

Go Sharks!!

Jones is barely better than Niemi, and you're saying he's better than Irbe and Nabby? Lmao.
 

Alwalys

Phu m.
May 19, 2010
25,894
6,140
As a Sharks fan I don't even understand what it feels like to have an actual good goalie in net.
 

tiburon12

Registered User
Jul 18, 2009
4,598
4,374
It also helps that on the PK we arent giving up breakaways or 2-1's. If we look at Jones' last few games at 5v5, he was not in the best position to make saves on a majority of the goals against.

Boston:
  • Chara - Savable
  • Khulman - 2-1 against
  • Debrusk - Breakaway
  • Wagner - No defensive coverage (two point blank shots from the crease)
Vancouver:
  • Rousell - breakaway
  • Boeser - Savable
Washington:
  • Vrana - 3-2 and a bad bounce
  • Ovechkin - Meier leaves the best scorer of all time wide open on a rush
  • Oshie - breakaway
Vancouver:
  • Horvat - Savable, but defense needs to be better and not leave a man open
  • Pouliot - defensive lapse leads to a one timer from 5 feet out
Calgary
  • Jankowski - Jones in position to make save but is tipped last minute
thats 12 5v5 goals against and 3 are one he should have. 4 breakaways or 2-1. The rest are defensive lapses that lead to goals.

Jones is not as big a problem as we are making it out to be. Having said that, he sucks at breakaways and needs to get better

I did this exercise to prove a point that the majority of the goals he allows at 5v5 are not goals you can entirely hang on Jones. In fact, almost all of them are the result of defensive failures. That isnt to say that we could have benefitted from a timely save on some of these chances, however of the goals against that were "stoppable", both of them were inconsequential (bolded). What is more alarming is that the defensive breakdowns are happening at critical moments, which i underline below.

CBJ
Jenner - Defensive failure on Burns part - 1st goal of the game
Duchene - Jones makes two saves and the D fails to pick up Duchene on the 2nd rebound - 2nd goal of the game
DuBois - soft, soft goal (but a 3-1) 4-0 at this point, soft or not, it was inconsequential

Bos
McAvoy - left wide open in the slot on a rush, picks top corner off the bar and in - Boston takes the lead
DeBrusk - 3-1 down low, Jones with 0 defensive help - 3-1 Boston, goal scored quickly after McAvoy's

Colorado
Zadorov - moving screen and an absolute bullet perfectly to the top corner
Girard - Probably should have saved it, but credit to a top goal Goal scored late in the 3rd, Sharks still held the lead

Chicago
Strome - 2-1 - Final minute of the period.
Gustafsson - Crazy screen that Jones didn't have a chance on


Point is, cleaning up some of this team D and would put Jones in a better position to succeed. Yes, he hasnt been great, but the shots we see go in and say "Jones sucks, he should have that" are avoidable play entirely.

Just looking at save % is disingenuous. It's better to evaluate the goals he lets up as part of the whole play
 
Last edited:

The Ice Hockey Dude

Ack! Thbbft!
Jul 18, 2003
7,070
350
Lost in the SW!
alright, I've been trying to figure out what's going on with Jones. Here are some general observations;

1) Goalies can be shot blockers or reaction based in the way they play - some of the GA appear that he's trying to
cover the net / block the shot and he doesn't react to where the puck is, track where the puck is going and gets scored on with little reaction on his part, like he didn't see it. The solution here is he needs to do both block / cover the net then track the puck and react to it - at times he does not appear to track the puck, or try to if
he's screened.

2) Sometimes he's a little to far back in the net, as a result leaves allot of the net open and gets beat. Or
he plays the angle wrong, gives the shooter to much and it's in the net. The solution
here is he needs to play more aggressive in the right situation on shot coverage from shots farther out.

3) it's true the the D has given up to many odd man breaks, high percentage scoring chances, etc. Here, he
just needs to make more saves and team D needs to not allow these chances *and* limit options in situations
so he can do 1) and 2) above.
---
Bottom line here is these are not physical issues that from what i can tell, all mental issues that i'm hoping
he'll get past pretty quick for the post season. And, that the team will clamp down on D and help him out. PDB's system is a defensive one to be sure, no way his GAA and Save % should be that bad.
 
  • Like
Reactions: JoeThorntonsRooster

Ad

Upcoming events

Ad

Ad

-->