Player Discussion: Martin Jones

Barrie22

Shark fan in hiding
Aug 11, 2009
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Thats the thing that makes this team even more dangerous. This team does not rely on 1 player offensively, it does not rely on its goaltending. It does not rely on boring snoozfest defense.

This team stays the same as is right now they are the 2nd best team in the league. And should be able to do some damage in the playoffs. And that is with kane and karlsson injured.

Both those players back and the below average goaltending continuing and it still doesn't change much.

But thats the thing. The sharks goaltending can't get much worse by the numbers. But it for sure get better. And that is scary.
 

Pinkfloyd

Registered User
Oct 29, 2006
70,238
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Thats the thing that makes this team even more dangerous. This team does not rely on 1 player offensively, it does not rely on its goaltending. It does not rely on boring snoozfest defense.

This team stays the same as is right now they are the 2nd best team in the league. And should be able to do some damage in the playoffs. And that is with kane and karlsson injured.

Both those players back and the below average goaltending continuing and it still doesn't change much.

But thats the thing. The sharks goaltending can't get much worse by the numbers. But it for sure get better. And that is scary.

The Sharks have kind of sharpened up a lot of their puck errors that were creating dangerous chances against pretty much since the All-Star break. They've had bad games here and there but it's a lot more consistent than how the first half of the year was. Their defensive coverage is also leaps and bounds better. So while they may not rely on it to win, it is certainly a big piece of the puzzle as to why they've been able to not lose consecutive games since the break.
 

Registered User

Registered User
Sep 1, 2012
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3
Am I the only crazy one who trusts Dell more than Jones. He's more athletic, is 1000x better handling the puck, and he give 100% on every shot. He needs to work on angles and positioning. He needs to limit the blowouts but he's not worse than Jones and I think Jones is just the worst, especially this year. Just no faith in him in the least. He's just not good enough.
 

Negatively Positive

Mr. Longevity
Mar 2, 2011
10,298
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Sharks have been able to find some nice forwards and d-men from Europe. Maybe they can find a goalie who's older and ready too. Obviously it's a lot harder since there's a much smaller pool and goalies are volatile. Plus with Jones being untradeable they'll probably give him a long leash.
 

Pinkfloyd

Registered User
Oct 29, 2006
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Am I the only crazy one who trusts Dell more than Jones. He's more athletic, is 1000x better handling the puck, and he give 100% on every shot. He needs to work on angles and positioning. He needs to limit the blowouts but he's not worse than Jones and I think Jones is just the worst, especially this year. Just no faith in him in the least. He's just not good enough.

Dell has given no reason to trust him more than Jones at this point.
 
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WSS11

Registered User
Oct 7, 2009
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Am I the only crazy one who trusts Dell more than Jones. He's more athletic, is 1000x better handling the puck, and he give 100% on every shot. He needs to work on angles and positioning. He needs to limit the blowouts but he's not worse than Jones and I think Jones is just the worst, especially this year. Just no faith in him in the least. He's just not good enough.

They’re both far too inconsistent to trust one over the other imo.
 

Fistfullofbeer

Moderator
May 9, 2011
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Whidbey Island, WA
They’re both far too inconsistent to trust one over the other imo.

I agree. And despite it 'feeling' like Dell is better at HDSV%, its really not that much of a difference.

I decided to look at stats for all goalies with more than 800 minutes TOI. Used 800 minutes there to be able to include Dell who has 922 minutes TOI. There were a total of 58 goalies in that list.

Goalie | SV% | Rank (SV%) | HDSV% | Rank (HDSV%)

Jones | .897 | 58 | .794 | 49
Dell | .907 | 51 | .797 | 51

Cannot believe Jones is dead-last in the league in SV% in goalies with more than 800 minutes played this season.
 

Bleedred

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Dell has given no reason to trust him more than Jones at this point.
Agree.

And as I pointed out in the other thread, Dell is so tiny that there’s probably a lot of pucks that get past him that just hit Jones. Goals that Dell looks like he has no chance on, but goals that a taller or wider goalie would definitely stop. Pucks that Jones probably stops without even trying that hard and makes it look routine.

That’s one thing that I’ve noticed with Dell this year. He hasn’t allowed a lot of goals I’ve counted as stoppable, but he’s playing like a little man in net. I mean, he is a little man, but he makes himself look even smaller in net.
 

wraith985

Registered User
Jan 8, 2006
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It's comical to suggest that because the Sharks give up some highly visible high danger chances that therefore none of this is Jones' fault. Every team gives up high danger scoring chances, and the statistics that are danger-adjusted are just as bad as the 'raw' stats.

I had some time today, so I sorted Natural Stat Trick by 1000+ min TOI (picked arbitrarily to try and capture platoons but not backups - if you have a better number suggestion I'm all ears) and 52 goaltenders showed up. It's actually even worse than I thought. EDIT: That's 1000+ 5v5 TOI - should have specified before. Here are Jones' rankings for the year at evens:

SV%: 0.897, 52/52 (next worst: Keith Kinkaid, 0.903)
GSAA: -26.09, 52/52 (next worst: Keith Kinkaid, -15.69)

But San Jose's defense sucks, right? OK, let's adjust for danger level:

HD SV%: 0.794, 46/52 (players behind him: Koskinen, Kinkaid, Korpisalo, Reimer, Domingue, Luongo)
HD GSAA: -11.47, 52/52 (next worst: Koskinen, -9.58)

MD SV%: 0.905, 37/52
MD GSAA: -2.12, 39/52

LD SV%: 0.955, 49/52 (players behind him: Rittich, Kinkaid, Bernier)
LD GSAA: -7.85, 50/52 (players behind him: Kinkaid, Bernier)

Just let these numbers sink in for a moment. He's the only goaltender in the league with 1000+ TOI below .900 sv%, he is 'leading' in negative GSAA by a country mile (10.6 goals clear of his closest 'competitor'), and every single one of his danger-adjusted stats is terrible (by the numbers, he is actually one of the league's WORST low danger goaltenders, which jives perfectly with the constant moaning and groaning about the softies he gives up and completely contradicts the narrative that he makes most of the saves he's supposed to and just gives up the no-chancers).

I also took a look at the per 60 stats because maybe the counting stats are inflated because he plays so much, right?

HD GSAA/60: -0.26, 46/52 (players below are Kinkaid, Domingue, Koskinen, Korpisalo, Reimer, Luongo)
MD GSAA/60: -0.05, 37/52
LD GSAA/60: -0.18, 48/52 (players below are Rittich, Talbot, Kinkaid, Bernier)

Oh, and by the way:

Total Shots Against/60: 27.12, 50/52
HD Shots Against/60: 7.98, 30/52 (for reference, Cam Ward faces an astounding 11.52 HD shots against/60)
MD Shots Against/60: 6.93, 5/52
LD Shots Against/60: 10.63, 3/52

So to sum up - Martin Jones barely faces any rubber to begin with, and faces just the 30th most high danger shots against per 60, but is among league leaders in medium and low danger shots against. That suggests the Sharks are doing a really good job suppressing opposing scoring chances. And yet, his individual stats are what they are. And Deller's, I'm sure, are just as bad.

I'm rooting for the guy. I think he's a good goaltender having a very bad year, just like Nabby did in 05-06. I desperately want him to turn it around because I want San Jose to win this year. I would happily eat every one of my words if Jones goes on a monster tear in the playoffs. But I just have zero comprehension of why people carry so much water for a goaltender that has been, by literally every single metric both 'basic' and advanced, one of the league's worst goaltenders this year. At some point, you have to face the facts and step into reality. San Jose, despite the noticeable poor defense at times, has overall done quite a good job suppressing opposing offense - they just haven't gotten the saves to back up their work.
 
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Pinkfloyd

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Oct 29, 2006
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One thing I'd be curious about is the percentage of overall shots against that are HD shots against for goalies. It's a fairly standard issue for goalies to do poorer when they don't see a lot of pucks and the way the Sharks play does seem to reduce overall shots to a pretty good degree but they've also let a lot of prime scoring opportunities against.
 

Bleedred

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One thing I'd be curious about is the percentage of overall shots against that are HD shots against for goalies. It's a fairly standard issue for goalies to do poorer when they don't see a lot of pucks and the way the Sharks play does seem to reduce overall shots to a pretty good degree but they've also let a lot of prime scoring opportunities against.
This is a fair point and I think there’s a good argument that facing fewer shots will hurt a goalie’s save percentage.

But it shouldn’t be the difference between being a .910% goalie and an .898% goalie.
 

Bleedred

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It's comical to suggest that because the Sharks give up some highly visible high danger chances that therefore none of this is Jones' fault. Every team gives up high danger scoring chances, and the statistics that are danger-adjusted are just as bad as the 'raw' stats.

I had some time today, so I sorted Natural Stat Trick by 1000+ min TOI (picked arbitrarily to try and capture platoons but not backups - if you have a better number suggestion I'm all ears) and 52 goaltenders showed up. It's actually even worse than I thought. Here are Jones' rankings for the year:

SV%: 0.897, 52/52 (next worst: Keith Kinkaid, 0.903)
GSAA: -26.09, 52/52 (next worst: Keith Kinkaid, -15.69)

But San Jose's defense sucks, right? OK, let's adjust for danger level:

HD SV%: 0.794, 46/52 (players behind him: Koskinen, Kinkaid, Korpisalo, Reimer, Domingue, Luongo)
HD GSAA: -11.47, 52/52 (next worst: Koskinen, -9.58)

MD SV%: 0.905, 37/52
MD GSAA: -2.12, 39/52

LD SV%: 0.955, 49/52 (players behind him: Rittich, Kinkaid, Bernier)
LD GSAA: -7.85, 50/52 (players behind him: Kinkaid, Bernier)

Just let these numbers sink in for a moment. He's the only goaltender in the league with 1000+ TOI below .900 sv%, he is 'leading' in negative GSAA by a country mile (10.6 goals clear of his closest 'competitor'), and every single one of his danger-adjusted stats is terrible (by the numbers, he is actually one of the league's WORST low danger goaltenders, which jives perfectly with the constant moaning and groaning about the softies he gives up and completely contradicts the narrative that he makes most of the saves he's supposed to and just gives up the no-chancers).

I also took a look at the per 60 stats because maybe the counting stats are inflated because he plays so much, right?

HD GSAA/60: -0.26, 46/52 (players below are Kinkaid, Domingue, Koskinen, Korpisalo, Reimer, Luongo)
MD GSAA/60: -0.05, 37/52
LD GSAA/60: -0.18, 48/52 (players below are Rittich, Talbot, Kinkaid, Bernier)

Oh, and by the way:

Total Shots Against/60: 27.12, 50/52
HD Shots Against/60: 7.98, 30/52 (for reference, Cam Ward faces an astounding 11.52 HD shots against/60)
MD Shots Against/60: 6.93, 5/52
LD Shots Against/60: 10.63, 3/52

So to sum up - Martin Jones barely faces any rubber to begin with, and faces just the 30th most high danger shots against per 60, but is among league leaders in medium and low danger shots against. That suggests the Sharks are doing a really good job suppressing opposing scoring chances. And yet, his individual stats are what they are. And Deller's, I'm sure, are just as bad.

I'm rooting for the guy. I think he's a good goaltender having a very bad year, just like Nabby did in 05-06. I desperately want him to turn it around because I want San Jose to win this year. I would happily eat every one of my words if Jones goes on a monster tear in the playoffs. But I just have zero comprehension of why people carry so much water for a goaltender that has been, by literally every single metric both 'basic' and advanced, one of the league's worst goaltenders this year. At some point, you have to face the facts and step into reality. San Jose, despite the noticeable poor defense at times, has overall done quite a good job suppressing opposing offense - they just haven't gotten the saves to back up their work.
PREACH!
 

TomasHertlsRooster

Don’t say eye test when you mean points
May 14, 2012
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It's comical to suggest that because the Sharks give up some highly visible high danger chances that therefore none of this is Jones' fault. Every team gives up high danger scoring chances, and the statistics that are danger-adjusted are just as bad as the 'raw' stats.

I had some time today, so I sorted Natural Stat Trick by 1000+ min TOI (picked arbitrarily to try and capture platoons but not backups - if you have a better number suggestion I'm all ears) and 52 goaltenders showed up. It's actually even worse than I thought. Here are Jones' rankings for the year:

SV%: 0.897, 52/52 (next worst: Keith Kinkaid, 0.903)
GSAA: -26.09, 52/52 (next worst: Keith Kinkaid, -15.69)

But San Jose's defense sucks, right? OK, let's adjust for danger level:

HD SV%: 0.794, 46/52 (players behind him: Koskinen, Kinkaid, Korpisalo, Reimer, Domingue, Luongo)
HD GSAA: -11.47, 52/52 (next worst: Koskinen, -9.58)

MD SV%: 0.905, 37/52
MD GSAA: -2.12, 39/52

LD SV%: 0.955, 49/52 (players behind him: Rittich, Kinkaid, Bernier)
LD GSAA: -7.85, 50/52 (players behind him: Kinkaid, Bernier)

Just let these numbers sink in for a moment. He's the only goaltender in the league with 1000+ TOI below .900 sv%, he is 'leading' in negative GSAA by a country mile (10.6 goals clear of his closest 'competitor'), and every single one of his danger-adjusted stats is terrible (by the numbers, he is actually one of the league's WORST low danger goaltenders, which jives perfectly with the constant moaning and groaning about the softies he gives up and completely contradicts the narrative that he makes most of the saves he's supposed to and just gives up the no-chancers).

I also took a look at the per 60 stats because maybe the counting stats are inflated because he plays so much, right?

HD GSAA/60: -0.26, 46/52 (players below are Kinkaid, Domingue, Koskinen, Korpisalo, Reimer, Luongo)
MD GSAA/60: -0.05, 37/52
LD GSAA/60: -0.18, 48/52 (players below are Rittich, Talbot, Kinkaid, Bernier)

Oh, and by the way:

Total Shots Against/60: 27.12, 50/52
HD Shots Against/60: 7.98, 30/52 (for reference, Cam Ward faces an astounding 11.52 HD shots against/60)
MD Shots Against/60: 6.93, 5/52
LD Shots Against/60: 10.63, 3/52

So to sum up - Martin Jones barely faces any rubber to begin with, and faces just the 30th most high danger shots against per 60, but is among league leaders in medium and low danger shots against. That suggests the Sharks are doing a really good job suppressing opposing scoring chances. And yet, his individual stats are what they are. And Deller's, I'm sure, are just as bad.

I'm rooting for the guy. I think he's a good goaltender having a very bad year, just like Nabby did in 05-06. I desperately want him to turn it around because I want San Jose to win this year. I would happily eat every one of my words if Jones goes on a monster tear in the playoffs. But I just have zero comprehension of why people carry so much water for a goaltender that has been, by literally every single metric both 'basic' and advanced, one of the league's worst goaltenders this year. At some point, you have to face the facts and step into reality. San Jose, despite the noticeable poor defense at times, has overall done quite a good job suppressing opposing offense - they just haven't gotten the saves to back up their work.

Are you guys looking at 5V5 or all strengths? If you’re looking at 5V5, which is the default setting for most websites and also where Jones tends to look worst, it’s best to make that clear.
 

Pinkfloyd

Registered User
Oct 29, 2006
70,238
13,611
Folsom
This is a fair point and I think there’s a good argument that facing fewer shots will hurt a goalie’s save percentage.

But it shouldn’t be the difference between being a .910% goalie and an .898% goalie.

The difference is about three shots on goal per game that is saved and for a starter seeing about three shots less per 60 than average, it's feasible. I wouldn't say it's likely but it's feasible that if he was seeing an average amount of shots that he'd be at or around that mark. It doesn't really matter much. He needs to step it up come playoff time and bail the team out as they're going to need it from time to time.
 

wraith985

Registered User
Jan 8, 2006
1,373
362
One thing I'd be curious about is the percentage of overall shots against that are HD shots against for goalies. It's a fairly standard issue for goalies to do poorer when they don't see a lot of pucks and the way the Sharks play does seem to reduce overall shots to a pretty good degree but they've also let a lot of prime scoring opportunities against.
I sorted down Shots Against/60 and looked over at HD Shots Against/60, HDSV%/60, and HDGSAA/60. I omitted Binnington because he faces 5.9 HD shots a game on 25.16 total shots, which isn't particularly close to what we're after. These are the next ten:


  • Rask, BOS26.787.06.839.09
    Jones, SJ27.127.98.794-.26
    Mrazek, CAR27.317.16.854.19
    Smith, CGY27.768.54.810-.14
    Fleury, VGK28.027.49.808-.14
    Dubnyk, MIN28.046.33.800-.17
    Rinne, NSH28.988.31.873.38
    Domingue, TB29.057.12.789-.27
    Rittich, CGY29.157.15.845.13
    Halak, BOS29.217.69.891.84
    [TBODY] [/TBODY]
Interpret how you will. I think there's some credence to it, but the difference is pretty stark nevertheless.
 

wraith985

Registered User
Jan 8, 2006
1,373
362
Are you guys looking at 5V5 or all strengths? If you’re looking at 5V5, which is the default setting for most websites and also where Jones tends to look worst, it’s best to make that clear.
Yes, I was looking at evens only. You're right, I should have mentioned that. 5s will make up the bulk of play in the postseason so I thought it was the most relevant bit.

If you sort by all strengths and 1500 total TOI, Jones' new rankings are: 40/46 SV%, 40/46 GSAA, 30/46 HDGSAA/60, 31/46 MDGSAA/60, and 36/46 LDGSAA/60. Suggesting again that he's been bad all around, but particularly so on low danger stuff relative to his peers.

Interestingly enough, if you sort by PK only w/ 150+ TOI, Jones' HDGSAA/60 is great (4th in the league), while his MD (19th) and LD (14th) are about league average.
 
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Bizz

2023 LTIR Loophole* Cup Champions
Oct 17, 2007
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San Jose
The worst goaltender in the NHL put up an .870 against the 3rd worst team in the NHL last night.

It's just a sad joke at this point. It's gotten so bad that any sort of odd man rush or breakaway is pretty much an automatic goal against these days.
 

Pinkfloyd

Registered User
Oct 29, 2006
70,238
13,611
Folsom
The worst goaltender in the NHL put up an .870 against the 3rd worst team in the NHL last night.

It's just a sad joke at this point. It's gotten so bad that any sort of odd man rush or breakaway is pretty much an automatic goal against these days.

Well the solution at this point is to not give up breakaways much less give up five of them. It can be done. They have no other real alternative. The Sharks are the only team at this stage that's a playoff team giving up that many types of breaks.
 

Barrie22

Shark fan in hiding
Aug 11, 2009
24,795
5,955
ontario
This is supposedly one of the best defensive teams according to shark fans. If this is the case why do they continue to allow multiple odd man rushes and breakaways every single game?

Yes every team allows them but this team is ultra bad for it.
 

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