Salary Cap: Pittsburgh Penguins Salary Cap Thread: Spinning our Rud-wheels all summer long...

[pistolpete11]

I don't have strong feelings either way on ZAR, but he absolutely should have been scratched in the playoffs this year. The defensive specialist thing doesn't really apply when he's blowing coverages that directly resulted in goals and on a team struggling to score goals.

I'll also say, if he has this Selke reputation around the league, then they should see what they can get for him. If teams actually think that, he's only making $1M, and he'll still be a RFA, they should be willing to offer up something pretty, preeeety, preeeeeeety nice.

 

[theicebox]

I think one of the reasons for the sourness towards Aston-Reese and Simon is that they were the next batch of WBS forwards that followed Sheary, Rust, Kuhnhackl and Guentzel, Wilson, Rowney during the Cup wins, and they didn't have as large of an impact during 2017-18 despite being put in positions to succeed.

This isn't the main reason, but I think it is part of it.

 

[Empoleon8771]

I think one of the reasons for the sourness towards Aston-Reese and Simon is that they were the next batch of WBS forwards that followed Sheary, Rust, Kuhnhackl and Guentzel, Wilson, Rowney during the Cup wins, and they didn't have as large of an impact during 2017-18.

No, I think most of the sourness towards them comes from the fact that they can't score.

ZAR's like a 12 goal, 25 point player per 82 games and Simon is a 10 goal, 30 point player per 82 games over their careers, and they both appear to be getting worse offensively.

 

[ColePens]

I think one of the reasons for the sourness towards Aston-Reese and Simon is that they were the next batch of WBS forwards that followed Sheary, Rust, Kuhnhackl and Guentzel, Wilson, Rowney during the Cup wins, and they didn't have as large of an impact during 2017-18 despite being put in positions to succeed.

This isn't the main reason, but I think it is part of it.

I think this is a good point. I think ZAR is a fine 4th liner. It really comes down to how the team is playing.

Teams have adapted AND adopted our speed. We can't just out speed everyone as we get older. Also all speed is not equal. Playing fast vs. Being fast is a thing. Players actually need to be able to play at the requested speed of the team game. Passes, chips, dumps, back tracking, etc.

So to me this falls mostly on Sully. The team has drastically under performed 2 years in a row. I don't care if it's a perfect system on paper, the team cannot play it. So time to adjust. ESPECIALLY the f***ing powerplay. My god it's the most basic powerplay of all time.

So you can change names all you want, but that roster has more to give than 1 win in 2 playoffs. Way more.

 

[Rakell67]

No, I think most of the sourness towards them comes from the fact that they can't score.

ZAR's like a 12 goal, 25 point player per 82 games and Simon is a 10 goal, 30 point player per 82 games over their careers, and they both appear to be getting worse offensively.

I think younger, hungrier guys need to be given a chance over these two...

Aston-Reese

Regular Season:

GP	G	A	P	+/-
116	18	18	36	20

[THEAD] [/THEAD]
[TBODY] [/TBODY]

Playoffs:

GP	G	A	P	+/-
17	0	2	2	-6

[TBODY] [/TBODY]
[TBODY] [/TBODY]

Simon

Regular Season:

GP	G	A	P	+/-
173	19	45	64	0

[THEAD] [/THEAD]
[TBODY] [/TBODY]

Playoffs:

GP	G	A	P	+/-
12	0	4	4	-1

[TBODY] [/TBODY]
[TBODY] [/TBODY]

If I had to choose one to keep tho, I’d choose Simon.

 

[billybudd]

I mean, those parameters are pretty limiting. I think any back surgery is going to affect a player, regardless of their height. But people can come back from disc issues. I'm one of them.

Back injuries are a bigger issue for bigger people. More likely to get them, more likely for them to become chronic.

And unless you came back from disc issues to play a contact sport (one which requires leaning over a lot) at a pro level and had the same success you did previous, I'm not sure what your own experience would have to do with this. John Q Public being able to cut his grass without needing an oxycontin isn't the same as Nick Bjugstad being able to give $4 million worth of quality center ice position 90 nights a year.

 

[Peat]

Rowney 3 in 20
Fehr 4 in 23
Kuhn 5 in 24, 1 in 11
Hagelin 2 in 15
Sykora 1 in 7
Admas 5 in 24

Depth scoring is great. But the myth that every guy needs to score or that thay have in the past is just that... a myth.

My point isnt that if he continues to be bad in the playoffs you shouldn't look To upgrade, just the fallacy that you need every fourth liner to score points in the playoffs, especially one that is elite defensively.

If the argument is he specifically doesnt bring the same results to the playoffs then i will listen, sample size aside. But the concept that you need every 4th liner to be Matt Cullen is silly.

They don't *need* to be more Cullen.

But it's desirable, and they do probably need to be more than 2 in 17 if they're going to be a regular. Fehr, Kuhnhackl, and Adams all were as regulars. Not being that is why Kuhnhackl ceased to be regular. Hagelin was severely injury impacted. I guess Rowney's the one comparable, and Rowney's a depth guy who played a bunch due to injuries. If ZAR's going to get these offensive results in the playoffs, then he shouldn't be a first choice player.

Also:

ZAR 1.2 g/60 over the playoffs

Rowney (16/17) - 2.36 g/60
Hagelin (16/17) - 1.61 g/60
Kuhnhackl (16/17) 1.15 g/60 - that's why he's a reserve
Kuhnhackl (15/16) 1.78 g/60
Fehr (15/16) 1.91 g/60

Being not that individually productive is okay if it's not holding back the team production. ZAR's might well be. Probably because he ends up as the trigger man and has got worse and worse as that.

ZAR needs to score more to be worth more than a reserve forward role on a team serious about winning the cup, and his defence needs to be better too. I won't object if they keep him in pursuit of this because he has shown it, but I won't object if they move him to make space for someone else to have a go and maybe give a better return.

 

[molon labe]

I think this is a good point. I think ZAR is a fine 4th liner. It really comes down to how the team is playing.

Teams have adapted AND adopted our speed. We can't just out speed everyone as we get older. Also all speed is not equal. Playing fast vs. Being fast is a thing. Players actually need to be able to play at the requested speed of the team game. Passes, chips, dumps, back tracking, etc.

So to me this falls mostly on Sully. The team has drastically under performed 2 years in a row. I don't care if it's a perfect system on paper, the team cannot play it. So time to adjust. ESPECIALLY the f***ing powerplay. My god it's the most basic powerplay of all time.

So you can change names all you want, but that roster has more to give than 1 win in 2 playoffs. Way more.

If you recall - the Sharks were touted for their speed against our Pens in 16. Many of us laughed (though folks from the West didn't) - but I think it mostly spoke to what you're saying here. The Sharks had fantastic passing, and played fast for the west...but the Pens were an unseen type of blazing speed....who also had the depth to convert scoring chances.

Like you said - we can't just wishfully think our way back to 2016 when teams were unprepared for skate speed...especially not when the nucleus of our offense are in their mid 30s. Additionally, the Penguins have never won anything without scoring depth. Every title this team has came with a team that had at least 3 lines who could score. For whatever reason, we've been rolling the dice since the drop-off of Kessel and departure of Bonino. I don't think we were wrong for bringing in some of these bottom 6 guys we have - because that's what helped in 16 and 17 - but they're not created equal and we're missing three of the biggest ingredients to start with: a legitimate 3C/ backup 2C, a scoring threat who can create on their own, and defensive pairings who can actually contribute.

 

[CheckingLineCenter]

I think Simon is a really good hockey player that lacks scoring touch. I like how he can plug in all over the lineup, play on either side, and I like his tenacity. My issue with him outside his inability to score is that he’s not always the same buzzsaw in the bottom 6 as he is in the top 6, which could be interesting now that there are so many legitimate wingers ahead of him.

ZAR is smart just lacks talent and doesn’t have that visible energy fans like in their low line wings. Gets results though. Could see him having success on other teams but wouldn’t mind moving him out just to reshuffle the deck some.

 

[molon labe]

Back injuries are a bigger issue for bigger people. More likely to get them, more likely for them to become chronic.

And unless you came back from disc issues to play a contact sport (one which requires leaning over a lot) at a pro level and had the same success you did previous, I'm not sure what your own experience would have to do with this. John Q Public being able to cut his grass without needing an oxycontin isn't the same as Nick Bjugstad being able to give $4 million worth of quality center ice position 90 nights a year.

He made an incorrect assessment ...to which you're correct.

Unfortunately I was a basketball player/avid spectator for most of my youth/young adult life - back injuries are pretty much a death sentence for taller guys. Height absolutely mattes. Tall guys lean over for most tasks, especially in sports. One of the worst cases I saw was Tracy McGrady, but there are many, many more. Hockey would be even worse based on contact alone - but factoring in bending over with a stick for half the game and it just doesn't add up to anything good.

I can't comment on how injured he was - or how intensive the surgery is...but I'll definitely agree it should raise some concern.

 

[Andy99]

I think this is a good point. I think ZAR is a fine 4th liner. It really comes down to how the team is playing.

Teams have adapted AND adopted our speed. We can't just out speed everyone as we get older. Also all speed is not equal. Playing fast vs. Being fast is a thing. Players actually need to be able to play at the requested speed of the team game. Passes, chips, dumps, back tracking, etc.

So to me this falls mostly on Sully. The team has drastically under performed 2 years in a row. I don't care if it's a perfect system on paper, the team cannot play it. So time to adjust. ESPECIALLY the f***ing powerplay. My god it's the most basic powerplay of all time.

So you can change names all you want, but that roster has more to give than 1 win in 2 playoffs. Way more.

mental processing speed = more important than actual speed

 

[molon labe]

I think Simon is a really good hockey player that lacks scoring touch. I like how he can plug in all over the lineup, play on either side, and I like his tenacity. My issue with him outside his inability to score is that he’s not always the same buzzsaw in the bottom 6 as he is in the top 6, which could be interesting now that there are so many legitimate wingers ahead of him.

ZAR is smart just lacks talent and doesn’t have that visible energy fans like in their low line wings. Gets results though. Could see him having success on other teams but wouldn’t mind moving him out just to reshuffle the deck some.

The issue with this - is that these same scouting reports are commonplace of players all over the world. What (should) separate NHL guys is that they put it together. Either they put it together at times and find roles in the bottom 6, or they put it together consistently and find themselves in the top 6. Outside of elite talent, what separates top guys and 'bottom' guys is typically consistency. The fact we keep on keeping on with guys who just cannot put it together...then sign them to term'd contracts is maddening.

What made those teams from a few years ago great was that Sully seemed to plug and play. If you didn't work - you got slotted somewhere else or dropped. Injuries also helped with call ups. But the moment we started getting attached to guys and looking in the rearview we started to stagnate and the league passed us by.

 

[Empoleon8771]

I'll say that I'm fine with keeping both Simon and ZAR, but I'll just go back to the point I made last night. I'd like to see a 4th line of ZAR-Blueger-Simon, because I think a big problem with the production of the 4th line this year was the lack of playmaking talent on the line. You're not going to be producing much if your 4th line wingers are ZAR and Tanev. If you bump Tanev to the 3rd line for him to play with a strong 3C (think Henrique, 2018 Staal or someone like that) and add some playmaking talent to the 4th line, I think you can have 2 defensive bottom-6 shutdown lines and give ample scoring opportunities for the top-6.

You can match up a McCann-2018 Staal-Tanev line with any top line in the NHL, and when Poulin is NHL ready, you can either put Poulin in McCann's spot or bump Kapanen to the 3rd line with Tanev and 2018 Staal. I don't know how you're going to get that center, but you can have a really strong bottom-6 by setting it up that way.

 

[CheckingLineCenter]

I don’t get the “league has passed us by” thing. Yes the playoffs have been rough as hell, but the Pens were 7th overall heading into the break despite playing horrible hockey.

I think declaring that with depth guys Simon and ZAR as reasons is over the top. Imo if/when the NHL passes the Pens by, A) we will be MUCH worse and B) it’ll be b/c the stars can’t be stars anymore.

 

[ownal]

Horny for Jarnkrok,2nd
McCann,Desmith for Montour,Ulmark
Murray for 1st
Granlund cheap 1 year deal

Granlund - Crosby - Zucker
Guentzel - Malkin - Rust
Jarnkrok - Tb - Kap
Simon - Bjugstad - Tanev

 

[Andy99]

I'll say that I'm fine with keeping both Simon and ZAR, but I'll just go back to the point I made last night. I'd like to see a 4th line of ZAR-Blueger-Simon, because I think a big problem with the production of the 4th line this year was the lack of playmaking talent on the line. You're not going to be producing much if your 4th line wingers are ZAR and Tanev. If you bump Tanev to the 3rd line for him to play with a strong 3C (think Henrique, 2018 Staal or someone like that) and add some playmaking talent to the 4th line, I think you can have 2 defensive bottom-6 shutdown lines and give ample scoring opportunities for the top-6.

You can match up a McCann-2018 Staal-Tanev line with any top line in the NHL, and when Poulin is NHL ready, you can either put Poulin in McCann's spot or bump Kapanen to the 3rd line with Tanev and 2018 Staal. I don't know how you're going to get that center, but you can have a really strong bottom-6 by setting it up that way.

no one could pay me enough to watch a ZAR-Blueger-Simon line...they may get more offensive chances but they’d be flubbing them left and right...Blue is the only one that line who can pot a goal occasionally...they’d make me want to tear my hair out

 

[Peat]

I think Simon is a really good hockey player that lacks scoring touch. I like how he can plug in all over the lineup, play on either side, and I like his tenacity. My issue with him outside his inability to score is that he’s not always the same buzzsaw in the bottom 6 as he is in the top 6, which could be interesting now that there are so many legitimate wingers ahead of him.

ZAR is smart just lacks talent and doesn’t have that visible energy fans like in their low line wings. Gets results though. Could see him having success on other teams but wouldn’t mind moving him out just to reshuffle the deck some.

Simon's just a little too dependent on other guys to stir the drink and force the speed of play he needs to thrive - and also to score - which accounts for why he doesn't always get bottom 6 results.

I think my main thing with him is consistency. There was a moment earlier in the season where I think a bunch of people here thought he might have finally cracked it even if he couldn't score, but then he faded away - partly due to Sid not being able to stir the drink, but partly because he wasn't making plays he'd been making a week or so earlier. In an ideal world we'd keep him as a 13th forward and take another swing at finding that consistency - he's a huge boost to Sid's scoring at his best - but if you can't, you can't.

 

[CheckingLineCenter]

Simon's just a little too dependent on other guys to stir the drink and force the speed of play he needs to thrive - and also to score - which accounts for why he doesn't always get bottom 6 results.

I think my main thing with him is consistency. There was a moment earlier in the season where I think a bunch of people here thought he might have finally cracked it even if he couldn't score, but then he faded away - partly due to Sid not being able to stir the drink, but partly because he wasn't making plays he'd been making a week or so earlier. In an ideal world we'd keep him as a 13th forward and take another swing at finding that consistency - he's a huge boost to Sid's scoring at his best - but if you can't, you can't.

that’s fair. I really have no problem with him in the lineup, or planning to have him in it.

 

[Peat]

I'll say that I'm fine with keeping both Simon and ZAR, but I'll just go back to the point I made last night. I'd like to see a 4th line of ZAR-Blueger-Simon, because I think a big problem with the production of the 4th line this year was the lack of playmaking talent on the line. You're not going to be producing much if your 4th line wingers are ZAR and Tanev. If you bump Tanev to the 3rd line for him to play with a strong 3C (think Henrique, 2018 Staal or someone like that) and add some playmaking talent to the 4th line, I think you can have 2 defensive bottom-6 shutdown lines and give ample scoring opportunities for the top-6.

You can match up a McCann-2018 Staal-Tanev line with any top line in the NHL, and when Poulin is NHL ready, you can either put Poulin in McCann's spot or bump Kapanen to the 3rd line with Tanev and 2018 Staal. I don't know how you're going to get that center, but you can have a really strong bottom-6 by setting it up that way.

I have more worries about who's going to score with ZAR-Blueger-Simon than I do with who's going to make plays with ZAR-Blueger-Tanev.

 

[ColePens]

If you recall - the Sharks were touted for their speed against our Pens in 16. Many of us laughed (though folks from the West didn't) - but I think it mostly spoke to what you're saying here. The Sharks had fantastic passing, and played fast for the west...but the Pens were an unseen type of blazing speed....who also had the depth to convert scoring chances.

Like you said - we can't just wishfully think our way back to 2016 when teams were unprepared for skate speed...especially not when the nucleus of our offense are in their mid 30s. Additionally, the Penguins have never won anything without scoring depth. Every title this team has came with a team that had at least 3 lines who could score. For whatever reason, we've been rolling the dice since the drop-off of Kessel and departure of Bonino. I don't think we were wrong for bringing in some of these bottom 6 guys we have - because that's what helped in 16 and 17 - but they're not created equal and we're missing three of the biggest ingredients to start with: a legitimate 3C/ backup 2C, a scoring threat who can create on their own, and defensive pairings who can actually contribute.

Exactly. It's a new era for the Pens and we are going to have to be creative in how we play. I personally think we should adapt a trap and attack game. Most people won't understand what i'm saying and will hear "trap" and immediately think defense. But it's a counter attack game. But I do not believe in any part of my soul Sully will adapt. I think this guy is way to stubborn.

mental processing speed = more important than actual speed

Amen... or Koltsov (X-Gen reference) would have been a good NHLer. Dude could fly but his mind/hands could never keep up.

 

[Empoleon8771]

I have more worries about who's going to score with ZAR-Blueger-Simon than I do with who's going to make plays with ZAR-Blueger-Tanev.

I don't think Tanev is a particularly great goal scorer. Even ignoring his first full season (2 goals in 51 games), his goals/82 pace is 12.95 in the last 3 years. ZAR is at 12.72 and Simon is at 9.27 over that sa,e window.

 

[molon labe]

Exactly. It's a new era for the Pens and we are going to have to be creative in how we play. I personally think we should adapt a trap and attack game. Most people won't understand what i'm saying and will hear "trap" and immediately think defense. But it's a counter attack game. But I do not believe in any part of my soul Sully will adapt. I think this guy is way to stubborn.



Amen... or Koltsov (X-Gen reference) would have been a good NHLer. Dude could fly but his mind/hands could never keep up.

I agree. Though - I also think we would flourish under a boring defensive system (we talked the past two Summers about it when I bring up Boucher). Something should give though - as I also do not see how this team can continue to win under Sully's system. I'd love to be surprised though.

I don't think Tanev is a particularly great goal scorer. Even ignoring his first full season (2 goals in 51 games), his goals/82 pace is 12.95 in the last 3 years. ZAR is at 12.72 and Simon is at 9.27 over that sa,e window.

This team should utilize Tanev like a better Hagelin. He shouldn't be stapled to a fourth line that already cannot score - he should be the tenacious forechecker on Sid or Geno's wing - or the Kunitz energy throwing hits out there for one of those guys...yet can also shoot the puck on occasion. He and Hornqvist have both been grossly misused here.

 

[pistolpete11]

Simon isn't a bad piece to have, but he's another bottom 6'er who needs specific types of linemates to make it work. And frankly, he's just not as good as the other ones they have (Hornqvist, McCann, Tanev). Him being cheaper than those guys is the only reason he might still be here while the others might not be (mainly McCann).

 

[Peat]

I don't think Tanev is a particularly great goal scorer. Even ignoring his first full season (2 goals in 51 games), his goals/82 pace is 12.95 in the last 3 years. ZAR is at 12.72 and Simon is at 9.27 over that sa,e window.

That's with decent chunks of top 6 time that Tanev never got though. ZAR scored at 2.74 g/60 with Sid on ice over the last three seasons (100 minute sample). His next best C for goal scoring is Cullen with .99. He's at .55 with Simon on ice, and between .5 and .43 with Brassard, Sheahan and Blueger. Assume the .5 for a line with Simon and Blueger and we're talking a goal every 12 games, s0 6.83 goals per 82.

With Simon, it's .87 with Sid (of course), dropping to 0.27 with Bjugstad, nothing with Blueger/Brassard/Cullen/Sheahan... call it .25 for the sake of convenience and it's half as many goals as ZAR.

As a wing pairing without major offensive talent to back them up, 10-12 goals combined from ZAR and Simon seems pretty likely over 82 games.

Exactly. It's a new era for the Pens and we are going to have to be creative in how we play. I personally think we should adapt a trap and attack game. Most people won't understand what i'm saying and will hear "trap" and immediately think defense. But it's a counter attack game. But I do not believe in any part of my soul Sully will adapt. I think this guy is way to stubborn.

The last team a coach played that defensive here regularly was, if I'm not misinformed, Johnston, and the result was people wondering whether Sid was done. Since then the most prolonged period of trap-esque play I recall under Sully was March 2019 - our best part of the season, but done without stars, and promptly fell to bits when they came back. And the most trap-heavy, counter-attack heavy, part of this playoffs was the last game where the team looked more and more listless as the game went on.

I don't think Sully is the guy you'd struggle to get to adapt to this sort of play style. I think it's the guys on the ice who matter more than Sully.

 

[Speaking Moistly]

I don't think Tanev is a particularly great goal scorer. Even ignoring his first full season (2 goals in 51 games), his goals/82 pace is 12.95 in the last 3 years. ZAR is at 12.72 and Simon is at 9.27 over that sa,e window.

Right, but just looking at last season. 2 of Simon’s goals didn’t involve Crosby and the year before 3 didn’t involve Crosby, Malkin or Guentzel. ZAR scored 5 goals if you remove the EN. Tanev scored 8 goals removing ENG. He’s not a great goal scorer but he’s better than both of them. You’d go from

ZAR (5) - Blueger (9) - Tanev (8)

to

ZAR (5) - Blueger (9) - Simon (2)

Simon played a lot with Crosby but I feel confident saying his already anemic scoring ability plummets once he’s away from the top 6.