Salary Cap: Pittsburgh Penguins Salary Cap Thread: Spinning our Rud-wheels all summer long...

[Gurglesons]

I'm not sacrificing Letang - I'm not keeping him off the negotiating table either. We have few assets that could actually be traded to garnish a good return, and he's one of them. He's not my first choice to address needs of this team but he's not out of sight either.

Tanev is better than Hagelin - are you kidding? They both offer speed and forechecking, but Tanev can actually shoot and skate with a puck. He wasn't essentially a third liner this whole year - Hagelin was a player who got time with Malkin and Kessel and Tanev got all of 3 minutes before getting stapled to nonfactor players...and still outperformed what Hagelin was bringing (and I LOVED Hagelin). If I could, I'd have both on the team...but both guys getting slightly overpaid for what they bring as a luxury is not realistic in this cap situation.

I’m really not sure what value Letang returns at his age with his contract. You basically need to find a ready made contender that is willing to go 4 and 4 or sacrifice a D in expansion. How many of those lack a significant RD that aren’t the Islanders?

I’m not sure how Tanev outproduced what Hagelin did? Are you talking in the 2017 playoffs?

There is a distinct irony in the fact this board has bitched about putting no hands grinders in our top six with Sid and Malkin for a decade and now has a certain group that advocates for Tanev in the top six..

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

I think Kapanen is a player you’d be happy to get at 15, but I don’t think he is the high end value you expect from a pick at that position in this year’s draft.

Ha... I think that's a fair, much more succinct assessment yeah.

I'm just not into the whole brevity thing maaaaaaan.

 

[SHOOTANDSCORE]

This is Trotz being quoted by SI in an article about how to play his defense...by this standard, we only really have one or maybe two players (Marino and Dumo) who qualify...yikes

"To me, the make-up of a modern defenseman, the No. 1 thing is the processing skills," Trotz said. "You can be a great skater, you can have really good puck skills, but the ability to problem-solve is, to me, key."

https://www.si.com/hockey/news/how-to-play-barry-trotz-defense

Great quote.

Not just D either. That's why Bones fit so well. I said after the cups that while everyone is paying a premium for fast skaters, we should target high IQ guys. That processing speed is a big part of what I had in mind. The ability to play fast is huge.

 

[CheckingLineCenter]

I'm not surprised Edmonton won't do 14th overall for Murray, but I think the fact that JR is asking for a 1st makes me think that Murray for Colorado's 1st seems pretty reasonable.

It’s probably the 14OA Lebrun was referring to, but there could also be ‘21 1sts in talks. I would not be surprised to see teams countering with that.

@Peat took words out of my mouth in regards to the FAs. The sooner they re-up the better. Hopefully both before the draft.

It’s really hard for me to speculate his value personally, especially with beer virus twist thrown into the cap. I just have no idea. So many variables.

 

[Peat]

It’s probably the 14OA Lebrun was referring to, but there could also be ‘21 1sts in talks. I would not be surprised to see teams countering with that.

@Peat took words out of my mouth in regards to the FAs. The sooner they re-up the better. Hopefully both before the draft.

It’s really hard for me to speculate his value personally, especially with beer virus twist thrown into the cap. I just have no idea. So many variables.

21 1sts wouldn't be the worst thing in the world to have in terms of trade value. I'd prefer some high end-ish 20/21 year old prospects, but I wouldn't say no.

 

[Andy99]

Great quote.

Not just D either. That's why Bones fit so well. I said after the cups that while everyone is paying a premium for fast skaters, we should target high IQ guys. That processing speed is a big part of what I had in mind. The ability to play fast is huge.

It’s what made Cullen successful here too at age 40...that’s why I don’t like targeting supposedly lower IQ players like Kapanen

 

[molon labe]

I’m really not sure what value Letang returns at his age with his contract. You basically need to find a ready made contender that is willing to go 4 and 4 or sacrifice a D in expansion. How many of those lack a significant RD that aren’t the Islanders?

I’m not sure how Tanev outproduced what Hagelin did? Are you talking in the 2017 playoffs?

There is a distinct irony in the fact this board has bitched about putting no hands grinders in our top six with Sid and Malkin for a decade and now has a certain group that advocates for Tanev in the top six..

I don't know off hand who those teams are...only that Letang as a "#1 RD" would hold value around the league...almost especially because he carries only a small risk with 2 years left on his contract (versus, say, Karlson with a lifetime left)...so a team with depth at C and F yet lacking defensive punch would be an easy suitor.

As for Tanev - I don't advocate that these young guys who can't score stick in the top 6. I simply think that (especially in the playoffs) Sid and Geno (and, God be willing, our 'new' 2C/3C addition) need someone willing to throw the body around, not be a hindrance offensively, and get to the forecheck /wall when they inevitably need either help or puck support dumping it in past a trap. What we've seen for 2 straight ousts is that if they can't get through the middle, they either force a pass or call it quits for a line change. The Bonino Shift was a perfect example of how that looks. Hagelin was a madman on the puck and pretty much created the whole thing. We have guys who are willing to get to those areas now, but they're not as quick as Tanev/Hagelin and are just not as good....and that's an issue when they're playing with Sid/Geno etc playing against opposition top talent.

 

[Gurglesons]

I don't know off hand who those teams are...only that Letang as a "#1 RD" would hold value around the league...almost especially because he carries only a small risk with 2 years left on his contract (versus, say, Karlson with a lifetime left)...so a team with depth at C and F yet lacking defensive punch would be an easy suitor.

As for Tanev - I don't advocate that these young guys who can't score stick in the top 6. I simply think that (especially in the playoffs) Sid and Geno (and, God be willing, our 'new' 2C/3C addition) need someone willing to throw the body around, not be a hindrance offensively, and get to the forecheck /wall when they inevitably need either help or puck support dumping it in past a trap. What we've seen for 2 straight ousts is that if they can't get through the middle, they either force a pass or call it quits for a line change. The Bonino Shift was a perfect example of how that looks. Hagelin was a madman on the puck and pretty much created the whole thing. We have guys who are willing to get to those areas now, but they're not as quick as Tanev/Hagelin and are just not as good....and that's an issue when they're playing with Sid/Geno etc playing against opposition top talent.

So, basically we should look into trading Letang because of nostalgic views of his value, eh?

Zucker and Rust are elite forecheckers by metrics that view such. I don’t see what Tanev adds that Zucker and Rust don’t.

Tanev is 100% a hindrance offensively. Players don’t go 20+ games without scoring if they are not offensively challenged.

 

[OswaldBates]

So, basically we should look into trading Letang because of nostalgic views of his value, eh?

Zucker and Rust are elite forecheckers by metrics that view such. I don’t see what Tanev adds that Zucker and Rust don’t.

Tanev is 100% a hindrance offensively. Players don’t go 20+ games without scoring if they are not offensively challenged.

PSSSSSST that is why he is on the 3a or 3b line

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

I like Tanev well enough to give him a pass for last year. But he's a blunt object and has no business on a scoring line or honestly barely on a decently-equipped third line. He would drive you all nuts within like three shifts in that role.

He's a specialized luxury player on a team that probably already has one or two too many.

 

[SEALBound]

GARRIOCH: Fans of the Ottawa Senators won't have as long a wait for NHL draft | Ottawa Sun

The pick from the Isles is a wildcard. The organization has discussed the possibility of going to get a veteran goaltender and the pick acquired for moving centre Jean-Gabriel Pageau could be used to go that route. There will be a lot of options with that selection and because this is a deep draft it could also big dividends for the club to keep it

Ottawa's late 1st or 2 2nds was always a good value trade for both sides I thought.

Well yeah but Liljegren is a pretty high level prospect... picked only two spots below the pick the Penguins just gave up (except in 2017, of course) and already has pro and NHL experience. I would have been over the moon, too. But that didn't happen.

Kapanen was picked at 22OA and to say that he's improved his stock 7 slots is... fair-ish. He's certainly a better player now than then. But this is a terrific draft (that I'm still hoping beyond hope the Penguins find a way to have a ball in somewhere right around where they traded away) and I'm just not at all convinced that Kapanen is the KIND of player the Penguins need so I was never going to be crazy about the deal. But hey maybe he tears it up and makes me look stupid. I hope so. I DO like Kapanen... but he only sort of ticks the surface quality boxes I'm looking for in "young" and "fast" -- everything else is a question mark re: his role here, IMO.

I don't really judge players by where I think they slot in the draft. I don't think that's a very good way to judge or gauge performance. In nearly every draft we can point to players that bonk and players that excel.

I think Kapanen is a player you’d be happy to get at 15, but I don’t think he is the high end value you expect from a pick at that position in this year’s draft.

2003 is considered one of the best and deepest drafts. It was considered a strong draft before, during, and after.

Robert Nilsson was selected with the 15ov pick by the Islanders.

 

[Son Goku]

 

[Son Goku]

I like Tanev well enough to give him a pass for last year. But he's a blunt object and has no business on a scoring line or honestly barely on a decently-equipped third line. He would drive you all nuts within like three shifts in that role.

He's a specialized luxury player on a team that probably already has one or two too many.

I disagree, I think he brings a certain tenacity that we lack.

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

I disagree, I think he brings a certain tenacity that we lack.

He's certainly tenacious. The problem is he doesn't have the tools to hang in a top six.

I feel like Hagelin broke some people. Hagelin couldn't score, sure. But it wasn't hard to tell watching him play that he could THINK the game in the OFZ. Tanev just doesn't have that. Though I guess he'd fare better in that role than someone like, say, ZAR.

 

[Gurglesons]

Ottawa's late 1st or 2 2nds was always a good value trade for both sides I thought.



I don't really judge players by where I think they slot in the draft. I don't think that's a very good way to judge or gauge performance. In nearly every draft we can point to players that bonk and players that excel.



2003 is considered one of the best and deepest drafts. It was considered a strong draft before, during, and after.

Robert Nilsson was selected with the 15ov pick by the Islanders.

Zach Parise, Ryan Getzlaf and Brent Burns we’re taking within five picks after 15 too.

I get your point, and I’m not super down on the Kapanen trade after reflecting on it.

 

[DesertPenguin]

No, I think most of the sourness towards them comes from the fact that they can't score.

ZAR's like a 12 goal, 25 point player per 82 games and Simon is a 10 goal, 30 point player per 82 games over their careers, and they both appear to be getting worse offensively.

I mean, 10/25 on the 4th line is just fine for ZAR. 10/30 on the first with Sid is very much not.

 

[SEALBound]

View attachment 366779

Was this before or after he had JJ traded in the Kessel trade?

Zach Parise, Ryan Getzlaf and Brent Burns we’re taking within five picks after 15 too.

I get your point, and I’m not super down on the Kapanen trade after reflecting on it.

And that's fine, that's your decision to be. I like Kapanen but I wish didn't give up the extras. You can think we overpaid and that's entirely unfair but I would be hesitant to suggest that that the 15ov in this draft holds some known quantity over Kapanen because that's just not true. Whether we like it or not, drafts are still a crap shoot. I think Boston is kicking themselves for 2015 still.

In 2003, what really chapped my buns was taking Ryan Stone and then having Loui Eriksson go right after him. Before falling off a cliff, Eriksson would have been a great RW for Sid to develop with.

 

[CheckingLineCenter]

Would people rather JJ+Murray for like a 6th

Or

Murray for two 2nds or a late 1st?

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

Would people rather JJ+Murray for like a 6th

Or

Murray for two 2nds or a late 1st?

Emphatically, no doubt in my mind option A.

People can handwave it away as much as they want but JJ is a huge problem on this roster and will continue to be until either he or the coach is gone. Preferably both.

 

[pistolpete11]

Would people rather JJ+Murray for like a 6th

Or

Murray for two 2nds or a late 1st?

Option A, but I'd rather the 6th round pick be a depth forward. My suggestion was Murray+JMFJ for Glendening. Glendening probably isn't worth much more than a 6th, but he'd help immediately as opposed to a 6th probably never amounting to anything.

 

[SEALBound]

Would people rather JJ+Murray for like a 6th

Or

Murray for two 2nds or a late 1st?

I'll take the picks in this draft. JJ can still be traded elsewhere in a crap for crap trade. That said, he can also be sat. That's more on the coaches though.

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

Tom kuhnackl had 7 points in 47 playoff games in three playoff runs here were we won 2 cups.

There is no reason 4th line offense cant come from Blueger and Tanev or whoever else is there.

And as Peat pointed out, Kuhnhackl went from regular on the 4th line in 2016 when he scored 5 points during that run, to missing half the games the following year when he stopped producing (2 points), to being a detriment in 2018 and being let go after that.

Kuhnhackl actually produced his first playoff run, then faded and was moved out when he stopped producing. ZAR hasn't scored a single goal in his playoff career in 17 total games, yet continues to be played consistently as though he's a legitimate 3rd NHL player. Not sure why you're equating the two.

 

[Le Magnifique 66]

I'll take the picks in this draft. JJ can still be traded elsewhere in a crap for crap trade. That said, he can also be sat. That's more on the coaches though.

Yup same here.
Cash in on MM

 

[SEALBound]

And as Peat pointed out, Kuhnhackl went from regular on the 4th line in 2016 when he scored 5 points during that run, to missing half the games the following year when he stopped producing (2 points), to being a detriment in 2018 and being let go after that.

Kuhnhackl actually produced his first playoff run, then faded and was moved out when he stopped producing. ZAR hasn't scored a single goal in his playoff career in 17 total games, yet continues to be played consistently as though he's a legitimate 3rd NHL player. Not sure why you're equating the two.

I think he single handedly won the Islanders the first round series in 2019 though in the first shift of game one. Gotta give him credit for that.

 

[Mr Jiggyfly]

nobodys arguing he’s been bad but even over a long playoff rub how many points are you expecting out of a 4th liner 5?

for comparisons sake in 47 career playoff games as a Penguin Kuhnackl had 7 points and we won 2 cups in those 3 seasons.

If ZAR is doing what hes supposed to do hes saving your team more than the 2 or 3 points hes not scoring and definitely saving you more than the one point pace hes behind a guy like kihnackl over 47 games.

im not going to argue the merits of depth scoring by any means but a goal saved is worth as much as a goal scored especially in the playoffs.

I get your point, but first of all ZAR was hot garbage in his end during these playoffs.

Even if he had been stout defensively during these playoffs, he needs to at least pot a goal here and there.

He is an offensive black hole and every player needs to contribute offensively if a team wants to win a cup.

I just can’t see how after three years of playoff failure from this guy, he would have anyone still believing he has any value to this team.