Salary Cap: Pittsburgh Penguins Salary Cap Thread: Spinning our Rud-wheels all summer long...

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

The other thing that kinda hurts with ZAR is that he isn't just "some 4th liner" to THIS coach.

He overplays the hell outta that line.

If ZAR's minutes were more limited he'd be less irritating. But regardless it's always been bizarre to me that this team sees him as some kind of shiny. But it's become a great Penguins late-stage coaching tradition to hitch your wagon to duds so hey... gotta keep up that legacy.

 

[Empoleon8771]

That's with decent chunks of top 6 time that Tanev never got though. ZAR scored at 2.74 g/60 with Sid on ice over the last three seasons (100 minute sample). His next best C for goal scoring is Cullen with .99. He's at .55 with Simon on ice, and between .5 and .43 with Brassard, Sheahan and Blueger. Assume the .5 for a line with Simon and Blueger and we're talking a goal every 12 games, s0 6.83 goals per 82.

With Simon, it's .87 with Sid (of course), dropping to 0.27 with Bjugstad, nothing with Blueger/Brassard/Cullen/Sheahan... call it .25 for the sake of convenience and it's half as many goals as ZAR.

As a wing pairing without major offensive talent to back them up, 10-12 goals combined from ZAR and Simon seems pretty likely over 82 games.

Did Tanev never get those minutes? If you're going to say that ZAR got top-6 opportunities based on 100 minutes, I think you have to say Tanev got top-6 opportunities as well based on his ice time with guys like Scheifele, Connor and Laine. I'm not going to add up all of the numbers, but the numbers for Tanev-Scheifele-Laine already has him at basically 100 minutes (3:30 together, 55 minutes for Tanev and Laine without Scheifele, 43:30 for Tanev and Scheifele without Laine) and that's without including guys like Connor, Ehlers and Little.

Tanev definitely produced a majority of his points on Winnipeg's 3rd line and played a majority of the ice time there (with Lowry as center and either Copp or Perreault as LW), but he did get some top-6 minutes in Winnipeg. Not to the extent Simon has gotten, but he has definitely gotten more than ZAR has.

The other thing that kinda hurts with ZAR is that he isn't just "some 4th liner" to THIS coach.

He overplays the hell outta that line.

If ZAR's minutes were more limited he'd be less irritating. But regardless it's always been bizarre to me that this team sees him as some kind of shiny. But it's become a great Penguins late-stage coaching tradition to hitch your wagon to duds so hey... gotta keep up that legacy.

ZAR averaged 12 minutes a night at 5v5 last year and ate a ton of shit defensive minutes that you don't want guys like Crosby and Malkin playing. Not sure how that's "overplaying the hell outta that line".

It doesn't get used like a traditional 4th line because it's not a traditional 4th line.

 

[CheckingLineCenter]

 

[TimmyD]

 

[Empoleon8771]

I'm not surprised Edmonton won't do 14th overall for Murray, but I think the fact that JR is asking for a 1st makes me think that Murray for Colorado's 1st seems pretty reasonable.

 

[Andy99]

Pens aren’t likely to get a first for Murray...if I’m JR, I’d pitch a 2nd and someone taking JJ...that’s a win-win imo...

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

It doesn't get used like a traditional 4th line because it's not a traditional 4th line.

Describe how it isn't a traditional 4th line. What does that mean?

That they get played more than most 4th lines, perhaps?

 

[Shrimper]

Good. We should make sure we get a lot for him. A pick in 20-30 + prospect or cap dump swap would be fair

 

[ownal]

Murray,Johnson for Graves,Grubauer,2nd

 

[SEALBound]

Say the Leafs want Murray, but they don't have the cap. Say the Avs want one of Toronto's top 6 guys...

I think the premise of Toronto wanting Murray is predicated on them moving Andersen. Then Andersen's money is for Murray.

yep...he’s the very definition of knowing how to work the analytics to look like a Selke candidate but yet do absolutely nothing all that productive on the ice,..lol

"Hey Zach...you haven't scored in 20 games...dafuque?"
"Well, hey, yeah that may be true that I haven't scored in 20 games...but I've also only let 2 goals in. Coach notices stuff like that."

This is Trotz being quoted by SI in an article about how to play his defense...by this standard, we only really have one or maybe two players (Marino and Dumo) who qualify...yikes

"To me, the make-up of a modern defenseman, the No. 1 thing is the processing skills," Trotz said. "You can be a great skater, you can have really good puck skills, but the ability to problem-solve is, to me, key."

https://www.si.com/hockey/news/how-to-play-barry-trotz-defense

Isles are also very dedicated to their system. When you lack those game breaking players (sans Barzal), I think you tend to get more buy in. This is something Sullivan brought to the table right away...and now...it's dissolved. Beginning of the year they were playing very nice structured hockey and then, again...it dissolved. Getting the buy in of a good well-rounded system and executing that game in-game out will be vital for us this upcoming season. We don't have the ability to run n' gun anymore.

I think younger, hungrier guys need to be given a chance over these two...

Aston-Reese

Regular Season:

GP	G	A	P	+/-
116	18	18	36	20

[THEAD] [/THEAD]
[TBODY] [/TBODY]

Playoffs:

GP	G	A	P	+/-
17	0	2	2	-6

[TBODY] [/TBODY]
[TBODY] [/TBODY]

Simon

Regular Season:

GP	G	A	P	+/-
173	19	45	64	0

[THEAD] [/THEAD]
[TBODY] [/TBODY]

Playoffs:

GP	G	A	P	+/-
12	0	4	4	-1

[TBODY] [/TBODY]
[TBODY] [/TBODY]

If I had to choose one to keep tho, I’d choose Simon.

Man that's a kick in the face or a punch in the nuts decision. I take Simon though because I think at the end of the day, it's better to have a wing that can skate with Sid than a 4th liner...even if they both produce like 4th liners.

Back injuries are a bigger issue for bigger people. More likely to get them, more likely for them to become chronic.

And unless you came back from disc issues to play a contact sport (one which requires leaning over a lot) at a pro level and had the same success you did previous, I'm not sure what your own experience would have to do with this. John Q Public being able to cut his grass without needing an oxycontin isn't the same as Nick Bjugstad being able to give $4 million worth of quality center ice position 90 nights a year.

I don't know if I buy that. Sure, taller people are at a higher risk for most injuries just due to physics, but the sole deciding factor is not "height". I see you switched it to "bigger"...so I guess if you want to argue that obese people suffer more from back issues than non-obese people, I guess you can and I won't argue. But Bjugstad likely did not get his disk issue solely because he's tall. That's an issue that happens to people of all sizes. I have had one, my mother and brother have had one and we are not overly tall people. It's just like any other injury though in that if you rehab it correctly, it heals correctly. I no longer have an issue with mine. And, to be fair, when I had mine I was still doing quite a bit of "physical" stuff. A little bit more than "cutting the grass". Lol. It's my past profession that also allows me to put the kabash on shit like "cup hangovers" and "Sid is tired because he played a lot of hockey 6 months ago".

You last bit though about Bjugstad not being able to give $4mil worth of quality, I will agree with.

Horny for Jarnkrok,2nd
McCann,Desmith for Montour,Ulmark
Murray for 1st
Granlund cheap 1 year deal

Granlund - Crosby - Zucker
Guentzel - Malkin - Rust
Jarnkrok - Tb - Kap
Simon - Bjugstad - Tanev

Interesting. Does this fit with the cap? Why swap CDS and Ulmark? If you bring Jarnkrok in, why have him as LW and TB as 3C?

I have more worries about who's going to score with ZAR-Blueger-Simon than I do with who's going to make plays with ZAR-Blueger-Tanev.

I think, more ideally, I'd like to take a chance on a "my crap for your crap" swap with JJ and see if that person can spark something.

Like, trade Horny, move Tanev up, swap JJ with Rask, and run Simon/ZAR-Bleuger-Rask. When I look at those lines...I'm just...ick.

 

[Peat]

Did Tanev never get those minutes? If you're going to say that ZAR got top-6 opportunities based on 100 minutes, I think you have to say Tanev got top-6 opportunities as well based on his ice time with guys like Scheifele, Connor and Laine. I'm not going to add up all of the numbers, but the numbers for Tanev-Scheifele-Laine already has him at basically 100 minutes (3:30 together, 55 minutes for Tanev and Laine without Scheifele, 43:30 for Tanev and Scheifele without Laine) and that's without including guys like Connor, Ehlers and Little.

Tanev definitely produced a majority of his points on Winnipeg's 3rd line and played a majority of the ice time there (with Lowry as center and either Copp or Perreault as LW), but he did get some top-6 minutes in Winnipeg. Not to the extent Simon has gotten, but he has definitely gotten more than ZAR has.

Didn't get them here, didn't think to check Winnipeg. 64 minutes with Scheifele over the last three seasons. That did bump his goal scoring, but it held at .62 g/60 with Lowry. He also has a 0.92 a/60 with Lowry, which is why I'm less worried about him as a playmaker than I am as ZAR as a goal scorer.

I stand on my position. ZAR and Simon are a distinctly worrying goal scoring duo in the bottom six. Tanev is a better bottom six goal scorer than either, and capable of helping create enough goals that I wouldn't worry about him and Blueger all that much.

 

[Jules Winnfield]

I'd be happy with just getting our 1st back from Toronto if they deal Anderson elsewhere.

 

[T1K]

Pens aren’t likely to get a first for Murray...if I’m JR, I’d pitch a 2nd and someone taking JJ...that’s a win-win imo...

I think that’s less realistic than getting a 1st back

 

[ownal]

I think the premise of Toronto wanting Murray is predicated on them moving Andersen. Then Andersen's money is for Murray.



"Hey Zach...you haven't scored in 20 games...dafuque?"
"Well, hey, yeah that may be true that I haven't scored in 20 games...but I've also only let 2 goals in. Coach notices stuff like that."



Isles are also very dedicated to their system. When you lack those game breaking players (sans Barzal), I think you tend to get more buy in. This is something Sullivan brought to the table right away...and now...it's dissolved. Beginning of the year they were playing very nice structured hockey and then, again...it dissolved. Getting the buy in of a good well-rounded system and executing that game in-game out will be vital for us this upcoming season. We don't have the ability to run n' gun anymore.



Man that's a kick in the face or a punch in the nuts decision. I take Simon though because I think at the end of the day, it's better to have a wing that can skate with Sid than a 4th liner...even if they both produce like 4th liners.



I don't know if I buy that. Sure, taller people are at a higher risk for most injuries just due to physics, but the sole deciding factor is not "height". I see you switched it to "bigger"...so I guess if you want to argue that obese people suffer more from back issues than non-obese people, I guess you can and I won't argue. But Bjugstad likely did not get his disk issue solely because he's tall. That's an issue that happens to people of all sizes. I have had one, my mother and brother have had one and we are not overly tall people. It's just like any other injury though in that if you rehab it correctly, it heals correctly. I no longer have an issue with mine. And, to be fair, when I had mine I was still doing quite a bit of "physical" stuff. A little bit more than "cutting the grass". Lol. It's my past profession that also allows me to put the kabash on shit like "cup hangovers" and "Sid is tired because he played a lot of hockey 6 months ago".

You last bit though about Bjugstad not being able to give $4mil worth of quality, I will agree with.



Interesting. Does this fit with the cap? Why swap CDS and Ulmark? If you bring Jarnkrok in, why have him as LW and TB as 3C?



I think, more ideally, I'd like to take a chance on a "my crap for your crap" swap with JJ and see if that person can spark something.

Like, trade Horny, move Tanev up, swap JJ with Rask, and run Simon/ZAR-Bleuger-Rask. When I look at those lines...I'm just...ick.

Yes, fits the cap. Ullmark will be a better goalie than Jarry and will be cheap to sign. Jarnkrok played really well as a LW on the dumpster fire that is the Predators 4th line. TB will make the jump into a very good 3C with 2 great line mates.

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

I think that’s less realistic than getting a 1st back

For sure.

I'd be pretty happy with ANY first back for Murray. The goaltender market seems a bit flooded and Murray's contract situation could be spooky to some GMs. Though with something like that, I'm sure loose terms could be worked out in advance of the trade to make sure he signs at the dotted line. He's also just not the goaltender he was several years ago, sadly. And goaltender value in general is always a bit wonky... biasing towards "not super great."

 

[Andy99]

I think that’s less realistic than getting a 1st back

Maybe but more likely because JR loves him some JJ lol...if JR holds fast to his cards, he might get a first at the draft depending on how things shake out with the other goalies on the market...then again, he might not..teams know he has to trade Murray and that lowers the return

 

[PensandCaps]

Pens aren’t likely to get a first for Murray...if I’m JR, I’d pitch a 2nd and someone taking JJ...that’s a win-win imo...

You underestimate how much GMs overpay for goalies.

Carolina gave Darling 4+ Mil based of a handful of starts.

Martin Jones got a 1st, he had like 10 good games for LA.

Edmonton gave Koskinen 3.2 mil for a 906. season.


Can't imagine what a GM will pay for a young two time Stanley Cup winner.

 

[SEALBound]

Extra tough as Edmonton has no 2nd, 3rd, or 4th. So they likely want to hold on to that 1st which is understandable. Sorta the same way I wanted us to hang on to it, lol.

Edmonton at 14ov and us giving up the 15ov+ for Kappy+, isn't as far off as some may think though. We basically thought Kappy for Murray was fair. We gave up a good prospect in Hallander as well. So I don't think 14ov for Murray is that bad.

Good. We should make sure we get a lot for him. A pick in 20-30 + prospect or cap dump swap would be fair

I would take a 1st+cap dump for MM+JJ. I would even consider 1st 2021 + Russell for MM+JJ.

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

Edmonton at 14ov and us giving up the 15ov+ for Kappy+, isn't as far off as some may think though. We basically thought Kappy for Murray was fair. We gave up a good prospect in Hallander as well. So I don't think 14ov for Murray is that bad.

Perhaps but I would be cautious operating under that logic.

JR overpaid for his man. It's what he does.

 

[SEALBound]

You underestimate how much GMs overpay for goalies.

Carolina gave Darling 4+ Mil based of a handful of starts.

Martin Jones got a 1st, he had like 10 good games for LA.

Edmonton gave Koskinen 3.2 mil for a 906. season.


Can't imagine what a GM will pay for a young two time Stanley Cup winner.

To be fair, Jones went on to back stop San Jose to a SCF...

The other two, bleh. I think Koskinen can be a decent, lower ender starter. Not going to lose you a playoff spot but isn't putting you over the top. Darling is done. Of the three, I can see Jones bouncing back to decent stats.

 

[SEALBound]

Perhaps but I would be cautious operating under that logic.

JR overpaid for his man. It's what he does.

Not by a lot though. I think the most angst we had were the additions on both sides. 15ov 1st = Murray = Kapanen is something I'm comfortable with. I mean, we can nitpick everything at the end of the day, but I think it's close enough. Perfection is the enemy of good enough.

It's the addition of Hallander and not getting back a comparable prospect is what I think bummed a lot of people out. Had it been Liljegren instead of Lindberg, I think we'd be singing a different tune. I would have been quite happy with that swap.

 

[Peat]

Maybe but more likely because JR loves him some JJ lol...if JR holds fast to his cards, he might get a first at the draft depending on how things shake out with the other goalies on the market...then again, he might not..teams know he has to trade Murray and that lowers the return

I think whichever way you look at the market, a 1st is cheaper to pay than 2nd + taking JJ, unless the 1st is really high.

Perhaps but I would be cautious operating under that logic.

JR overpaid for his man. It's what he does.

I think the Tampa deals for Coleman and Goodrow - or the deal for Hartmann a couple years back - shows GMs are more and more ready to throw their last 1sts around like they just don't care.

For sure.

I'd be pretty happy with ANY first back for Murray. The goaltender market seems a bit flooded and Murray's contract situation could be spooky to some GMs. Though with something like that, I'm sure loose terms could be worked out in advance of the trade to make sure he signs at the dotted line. He's also just not the goaltender he was several years ago, sadly. And goaltender value in general is always a bit wonky... biasing towards "not super great."

If Lehner and Markstrom sign for their respective teams like the media thinks they will, I'd feel pretty happy we've got the best goalie on the market (save maybe Kuemper), recent struggles or no. There might be a bunch of guys out there but most of them are super meh. I dunno whether Rutherford gets his price (although historic goaltending value says a 1st is no big deal here) but I don't worry about the market here, I worry about GM reads on him.

 

[Empoleon8771]

GARRIOCH: Fans of the Ottawa Senators won't have as long a wait for NHL draft | Ottawa Sun

The pick from the Isles is a wildcard. The organization has discussed the possibility of going to get a veteran goaltender and the pick acquired for moving centre Jean-Gabriel Pageau could be used to go that route. There will be a lot of options with that selection and because this is a deep draft it could also big dividends for the club to keep it

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

Not by a lot though. I think the most angst we had were the additions on both sides. 15ov 1st = Murray = Kapanen is something I'm comfortable with. I mean, we can nitpick everything at the end of the day, but I think it's close enough. Perfection is the enemy of good enough.

It's the addition of Hallander and not getting back a comparable prospect is what I think bummed a lot of people out. Had it been Liljegren instead of Lindberg, I think we'd be singing a different tune. I would have been quite happy with that swap.

Well yeah but Liljegren is a pretty high level prospect... picked only two spots below the pick the Penguins just gave up (except in 2017, of course) and already has pro and NHL experience. I would have been over the moon, too. But that didn't happen.

Kapanen was picked at 22OA and to say that he's improved his stock 7 slots is... fair-ish. He's certainly a better player now than then. But this is a terrific draft (that I'm still hoping beyond hope the Penguins find a way to have a ball in somewhere right around where they traded away) and I'm just not at all convinced that Kapanen is the KIND of player the Penguins need so I was never going to be crazy about the deal. But hey maybe he tears it up and makes me look stupid. I hope so. I DO like Kapanen... but he only sort of ticks the surface quality boxes I'm looking for in "young" and "fast" -- everything else is a question mark re: his role here, IMO.

 

[Gurglesons]

Well yeah but Liljegren is a pretty high level prospect... picked only two spots below the pick the Penguins just gave up (except in 2017, of course) and already has pro and NHL experience. I would have been over the moon, too. But that didn't happen.

Kapanen was picked at 22OA and to say that he's improved his stock 7 slots is... fair-ish. He's certainly a better player now than then. But this is a terrific draft (that I'm still hoping beyond hope the Penguins find a way to have a ball in somewhere right around where they traded away) and I'm just not at all convinced that Kapanen is the KIND of player the Penguins need so I was never going to be crazy about the deal. But hey maybe he tears it up and makes me look stupid. I hope so. I DO like Kapanen... but he only sort of ticks the surface quality boxes I'm looking for in "young" and "fast" -- everything else is a question mark re: his role here, IMO.

I think Kapanen is a player you’d be happy to get at 15, but I don’t think he is the high end value you expect from a pick at that position in this year’s draft.