Salary Cap: Pittsburgh Penguins Salary Cap Thread: Spinning our Rud-wheels all summer long...

[canadianguy77]

Guentzel - Crosby - Simon
Zucker - Malkin - Rust
Poulin - Staal - Kapanen
Tanev - Blueger - Hornqvist
Lafferty

Dumoulin - Letang
Joseph - Marino
Pettersson - Riikola
Ruhwedal

Murray / Jarry
DeSmith

Enough with the Simon nonsense. If you can’t put up double digit goals playing with one of the best playmakers to ever put on a pair of skates, then you have no business being on the top line. There’s more to hockey than being able to stick handle.

 

[canadianguy77]

offensively sure he bad.

but if your looking for offensive from your 4th line LW to succeed in the playoffs, you got a lot of bigger problems.

If you don’t can’t get occasional offense from your 4th line in the playoffs you aren’t going anywhere. ZAR is an offensive black hole, and his sound positioning (lol) doesn’t make up for it.

 

[mpp9]

offensively sure he bad.

but if your looking for offensive from your 4th line LW to succeed in the playoffs, you got a lot of bigger problems.

ZAR needs to be used against team's top lines and not get scored on to justify him never scoring in the playoffs. I doubt he's that good defensively.

Our 4th line scored goals in all of our Cup runs.

 

[Big Friggin Dummy]

I mean, I guess... Can't argue with the stats, I suppose. But how valuable or how much of an impact for this vaunted shutdown 4th line have in reality? In the playoffs? They were downright bad in that regard against the Habs.

I'm not asking for a purely offensive 4th line, I'm asking to swap out a guy with no real offensive upside for someone like Simon, or Lafferty.

The real issues are the 3rd line and the bottom two pairings on the blueline--namely where does the offense come from if/when Letang struggles?

 

[canadianguy77]

Really don't think it's fair to ask Poulin to provide the offensive punch needed from that combination of 3rd liners. Don't know if POJ is ready to step into top-4 minutes/role either. I hate the idea of spending like $10 million on a 4th line. Can't stand Simon with Sid and Jake either.

I only saw POJ during the scrimmages before the return to play, so take it with a grain of salt, but he looked like he’s at least another year or 2 out from being able to play with the big boys.

 

[Tasty Biscuits]

I only saw POJ during the scrimmages before the return to play, so take it with a grain of salt, but he looked like he’s at least another year or 2 out from being able to play with the big boys.

By all accounts he was tracking well last year, but the bout with mono really slowed down his progress, and it took him a while to get back on track. With the upcoming season being shortened as is, I'd bet the plan is to keep him in the A for its entirety.

 

[SEALBound]

The fact that Jordan Staal has seen absolutely zero progression offensively since being traded is shocking to me.

To be fair, there were a large group of us that tried to tell you that in 2011.

Bennett our 3C and Haula our 4C.

Bennett is currently my dream 3C. Haula would be great too. Actually...i like what you;ve done. Get both. I like that too.

 

[66-30-33]

Bennett is currently my dream 3C. Haula would be great too. Actually...i like what you;ve done. Get both. I like that too.

YOLO!

 

[Honour Over Glory]

By all accounts he was tracking well last year, but the bout with mono really slowed down his progress, and it took him a while to get back on track. With the upcoming season being shortened as is, I'd bet the plan is to keep him in the A for its entirety.

When you weigh 140lbs and you have mono and lose more weight, it takes time to get back to "normal."

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

offensively sure he bad.

but if your looking for offensive from your 4th line LW to succeed in the playoffs, you got a lot of bigger problems.

Every time we've won the Cup, our 4th line has provided key goals at important moments. Every time we've flamed out early, our 4th line has iced dregs like ZAR, Adams, and Glass on it.

To say you shouldn't be looking for offense from your 4th line is just ... strange to me. There's a reason the addition of Cullen was so huge -- not to mention being able to ice wingers like Sykora and Satan on the 4th line during the 2009 Cup run -- for those back to back Cup teams.

 

[Big Friggin Dummy]

I think Blueger could end up being the new Cullen as the 4C, but he's gotta not be used in a purely shutdown role, and he needs to get away from guys like ZAR and Tanev, imo.

 

[Gurglesons]

To be fair, there were a large group of us that tried to tell you that in 2011.



Bennett is currently my dream 3C. Haula would be great too. Actually...i like what you;ve done. Get both. I like that too.

If your dream 3C is a LW how do you sleep at night?

My dream 3C is Teddy Bleuger with talent because I do not believe Tanev or ZAR exist without him and he’s a solid NHLer in the making despite the @PensandCaps exaggerations.

 

[Peat]

Hey I liked Rowney too. Don’t pick in him.

Hey, I liked Rowney too. In fact, I liked all of them. I like all Penguins, and all of them were at points highly effective for their role.

But they are, on a macro scale, the same player. And there's a pattern for guys like them that are on the edge of the roster - the moment they stop working insanely hard, or the moment they're just a little out of form, or with the wrong guys, they slide off. Kuhnhackl did, Rowney did, and it's happening with ZAR. He has a positive influence still, but his goalscoring has waned, he no longer plays with piss and vinegar, and the injuries keep coming. Probably best to move him for value now rather than hope he bucks the trend.

By all accounts he was tracking well last year, but the bout with mono really slowed down his progress, and it took him a while to get back on track. With the upcoming season being shortened as is, I'd bet the plan is to keep him in the A for its entirety.

This doesn't scan with the accounts I've read. The accounts I've read are that he bounced back from the mono with a vengeance, had great increases with leg strength, and his coach thought he could have played sheltered NHL minutes at the end of last season. He was playing 26-27 minutes a night with 10 points and a +6 in his last 21 games. The beat reporters seem sure he'll make his NHL debut next season and there's occasional mutterings he could make it out of camp.

 

[Mr Jiggyfly]

offensively sure he bad.

but if your looking for offensive from your 4th line LW to succeed in the playoffs, you got a lot of bigger problems.

Definitely disagree.

I have said for years having fourth liners that can score and contribute offensively is a big key for any team that wants to make a cup run.

ZAR has been an absolute dud in the playoffs since becoming a Pen, and ultimately, the playoffs are what matters with this team.

I don’t think even the biggest ZAR fan could look me in the eye and tell me with a straight face he hasn’t been a total playoff bust.

 

[JTG]

Definitely disagree.

I have said for years having fourth liners that can score and contribute offensively is a big key for any team that wants to make a cup run.

ZAR has been an absolute dud in the playoffs since becoming a Pen, and ultimately, the playoffs are what matters with this team.

I don’t think even the biggest ZAR fan could look me in the eye and tell me with a straight face he’s hasn’t been a total playoff bust.

A lot of past Cup winners, I remember them by their 4th lines. That Boston 4th line when they won was probably my favorite - Campbell, Thornton, Paille. That is what a 4th line should be. When that line would score it was like a knife right through your stomach.

 

[Mr Jiggyfly]

A lot of past Cup winners, I remember them by their 4th lines. That Boston 4th line when they won was probably my favorite - Campbell, Thornton, Paille. That is what a 4th line should be. When that line would score it was like a knife right through your stomach.

He can game the stats all he wants... and certain guys are learning how to do that to grind out a living, but at some point you absolutely must contribute on the scoresheet when it matters.

There is no way around the fact he’s bombed out every playoffs.

If JR wants to fix this mess, you can’t keep bringing back the same culprits AND keep your core together.

At what point does JR look at ZAR and realize this guy is a negative asset?

McCann is in that same boat as well IMHO.

 

[WheresRamziAbid]

Definitely disagree.

I have said for years having fourth liners that can score and contribute offensively is a big key for any team that wants to make a cup run.

ZAR has been an absolute dud in the playoffs since becoming a Pen, and ultimately, the playoffs are what matters with this team.

I don’t think even the biggest ZAR fan could look me in the eye and tell me with a straight face he hasn’t been a total playoff bust.

nobodys arguing he’s been bad but even over a long playoff rub how many points are you expecting out of a 4th liner 5?

for comparisons sake in 47 career playoff games as a Penguin Kuhnackl had 7 points and we won 2 cups in those 3 seasons.

If ZAR is doing what hes supposed to do hes saving your team more than the 2 or 3 points hes not scoring and definitely saving you more than the one point pace hes behind a guy like kihnackl over 47 games.

im not going to argue the merits of depth scoring by any means but a goal saved is worth as much as a goal scored especially in the playoffs.

 

[WheresRamziAbid]

Every time we've won the Cup, our 4th line has provided key goals at important moments. Every time we've flamed out early, our 4th line has iced dregs like ZAR, Adams, and Glass on it.

To say you shouldn't be looking for offense from your 4th line is just ... strange to me. There's a reason the addition of Cullen was so huge -- not to mention being able to ice wingers like Sykora and Satan on the 4th line during the 2009 Cup run -- for those back to back Cup teams.

Tom kuhnackl had 7 points in 47 playoff games in three playoff runs here were we won 2 cups.

There is no reason 4th line offense cant come from Blueger and Tanev or whoever else is there.

 

[Peat]

nobodys arguing he’s been bad but even over a long playoff rub how many points are you expecting out of a 4th liner 5?

for comparisons sake in 47 career playoff games as a Penguin Kuhnackl had 7 points and we won 2 cups in those 3 seasons.

If ZAR is doing what hes supposed to do hes saving your team more than the 2 or 3 points hes not scoring and definitely saving you more than the one point pace hes behind a guy like kihnackl over 47 games.

im not going to argue the merits of depth scoring by any means but a goal saved is worth as much as a goal scored especially in the playoffs.

He's not saving us goals in the playoffs though. He's been a minus all three playoffs, is a cumulative -6, and has got worse ever playoff. Not all of that's on him, his PDO stinks and the metrics are strong, but that also shows the limit of his influence as a good defensive player.

I'd also point on the Kuhnhackl comp, Kuhn went from 4 in 24, to 1 in 11 and 0 in 12. The dip in scoring resulted in less games and him getting a ticket out.

 

[molon labe]

I mean, I guess... Can't argue with the stats, I suppose. But how valuable or how much of an impact for this vaunted shutdown 4th line have in reality? In the playoffs? They were downright bad in that regard against the Habs.

I'm not asking for a purely offensive 4th line, I'm asking to swap out a guy with no real offensive upside for someone like Simon, or Lafferty.

The real issues are the 3rd line and the bottom two pairings on the blueline--namely where does the offense come from if/when Letang struggles?

Which is why he's not a guy you can't consider moving. Everyone should be on the table except our big guys. Not that you have to move them - but frankly this team is going nowhere fast and is entirely too reliant on 2 scoring that have been stumped in two straight post seasons. I think people look at regular season statistics for a lot of our players/lines and tend to overlook how they perform when things get tight / when teams play more defensively. We're not going to get better(enough) by trading JJ for another terrible asset or swapping McCann for another reclamation. There needs to be an overhaul.

If we get matched up with another team that wants to run and gun - I like our odds. Increasingly though (and this covid cup isn't helping) - teams are going back to trapping and clogging the neutral zone and Sid/Geno are only marginally successful at cutting through it. Beyond them, no-one is. Our third line has been trash since 2017 and we've done nothing to address it. Our defensive corps are marginal at best and are supposed to be playing to a more offensive system of which they cannot. So many things have to change on this team and by all accounts it seems like JR is going to fall back on his old ways of changing a piece or two and washing his hands of it......we'll have good regular season success because Sid/Malkin...and then get dummied again in the playoffs because remarkably advanced stats on these turds don't transfer to actual goals when the game changes. But hey - we had the best defensive corps in JR's history this past year and our "biggest problem" [Schultz underperforming] is already going away...so we're good right?

 

[molon labe]

This really makes your take make much more sense. Just absolute ludicrous analysis.

Sacrificing Letang and hoping to invest in a 3rd line solution is one of the more crazy takes I've seen in how to solve this team's problems. I also question how you think Tanev is better than Hagelin yet our 3rd line isn't good given he was essentially a 3rd liner this whole year.

If the team is in reach of contention why are we moving the leading blue liner?

I'm not sacrificing Letang - I'm not keeping him off the negotiating table either. We have few assets that could actually be traded to garnish a good return, and he's one of them. He's not my first choice to address needs of this team but he's not out of sight either.

Tanev is better than Hagelin - are you kidding? They both offer speed and forechecking, but Tanev can actually shoot and skate with a puck. He wasn't essentially a third liner this whole year - Hagelin was a player who got time with Malkin and Kessel and Tanev got all of 3 minutes before getting stapled to nonfactor players...and still outperformed what Hagelin was bringing (and I LOVED Hagelin). If I could, I'd have both on the team...but both guys getting slightly overpaid for what they bring as a luxury is not realistic in this cap situation.

 

[WheresRamziAbid]

Rowney 3 in 20
Fehr 4 in 23
Kuhn 5 in 24, 1 in 11
Hagelin 2 in 15
Sykora 1 in 7
Admas 5 in 24

Depth scoring is great. But the myth that every guy needs to score or that thay have in the past is just that... a myth.

 

[Andy99]

This is Trotz being quoted by SI in an article about how to play his defense...by this standard, we only really have one or maybe two players (Marino and Dumo) who qualify...yikes

"To me, the make-up of a modern defenseman, the No. 1 thing is the processing skills," Trotz said. "You can be a great skater, you can have really good puck skills, but the ability to problem-solve is, to me, key."

https://www.si.com/hockey/news/how-to-play-barry-trotz-defense

 

[WheresRamziAbid]

He's not saving us goals in the playoffs though. He's been a minus all three playoffs, is a cumulative -6, and has got worse ever playoff. Not all of that's on him, his PDO stinks and the metrics are strong, but that also shows the limit of his influence as a good defensive player.

I'd also point on the Kuhnhackl comp, Kuhn went from 4 in 24, to 1 in 11 and 0 in 12. The dip in scoring resulted in less games and him getting a ticket out.

My point isnt that if he continues to be bad in the playoffs you shouldn't look To upgrade, just the fallacy that you need every fourth liner to score points in the playoffs, especially one that is elite defensively.

If the argument is he specifically doesnt bring the same results to the playoffs then i will listen, sample size aside. But the concept that you need every 4th liner to be Matt Cullen is silly.

 

[Empoleon8771]

The problem I have with ZAR in the playoffs was that he was horrible defensively in the playoffs this year. Sure, you could chalk that up as being due to an injury, but having a shoulder injury doesn't cause you to blow your coverage multiple times.

I'd be fine if they traded ZAR, but if they keep him, I don't think the other wing on that line should be Tanev. Blueger isn't good enough to be the primary offensive catalyst for that line, which is why that 4th line was awful offensively this year. You don't need your 4th line to be big producers, but you need way more than "10 goals at 5v5 in 57 games".