Way to soon but Matheson only has one give away on the season.
just sayin, there is reason for legit hope he can be good here.
just sayin, there is reason for legit hope he can be good here.
Salary Cap: Pittsburgh Penguins Salary Cap Thread: A New Error?
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There is literally no good reason to bring MAF back here other then to sign him for 1 day so he can retire as a Penguin. This entire “bring him home” shit is dumb as hell. Unless the Penguins are bringing in a guy like Vasy, Hellebuyck, or Price who can literally carry them they aren’t a goalie away from contending. Honestly even any of those guys probably don’t make them cup contenders because of other flaws...so we are trading a guy who makes $3.5 million to pay a guy $5 million and then on top of that re-sign him for probably the same amount or slightly less just because of...feelings? That makes absolutely zero sense.
Empoleon8771
Registered User
There are literally tons of guys. Gibson, Hellebuyck, Markstrom, Crawford and the combined trio of Georgiyev, Lundqvist and Shestyrkin all played behind bottom-10 teams defensively last year and put up above average to great results. Hellebuyck even won a Vezina that year despite the Jets being the 3rd worst team defensively. If you look at the year before, a bunch of those guys show up again (Hellebuyck, Gibson, Lundqvist, Crawford and Markstrom all show up again), plus you can add Andersen as well. And the Penguins came in 11th as well, and that was the year where Murray had a 40 game stretch of getting a .930 save%.
It's not DeSmith's fault because he's just reasonably not good enough to do much better than how he's performing out there. DeSmith's performance in the NHL this year is exactly what you'd expect out of a fringe NHL goalie playing behind a bad defensive team. It's not DeSmith's fault because you can't reasonably be mad that a borderline NHL goalie isn't putting up good numbers behind this team.
Jarry is completely different, though. He's paid money to be a NHL goalie, he's supposed to be this team's starter and he's performing way worse than DeSmith has been.
"There is no reason to bring MAF back as our starting goalie has an .857 save% and hasn't shown to be a NHL caliber starter outside of a 2 month window in 2019"
Lol at this place.
Empoleon8771
Registered User
Are people just way more sold on Jarry than I am or is there just this anti-Fleury rhetoric that makes people be dumb with goaltending on here? Let's take Fleury out of the equation entirely. Tristan Jarry has a career save% of .909 through 69 games, which is a below average save% over that window but it's overall okay. Over those 69 games, you have had massive variances in Jarry's play. His entire pro career is basically alternating between a stretch of great games and a stretch of terrible games. That's not an exaggeration:
2017-2018:
-First 6 games: .937 save%
-Next 5 games: .889 save%
-Next 6 games: .930 save%
-Last 9 games: .883 save%
2019-2020:
-First 18 games: .938 save%
-Last 15 games: .901 save%
2020-2021:
-First 7 games: .857 save%
My problem with Jarry is not really his talent level, it's that we have no clue what we're actually going to get from him. He has been infuriatingly inconsistent in his entire career. Sure, every goalie has good runs and bad runs, but not every goalie has only good runs and bad runs. We have no idea what Jarry actually is because he's been basically 2 goalies in his entire career, and really not much in the middle.
If you can get anyone that is more stable in net that will give you comparable overall results, you go for it just to get some semblance of relief. Having that stability in net, instead of guessing "are we getting god mode Jarry or not a NHLer Jarry?", will dramatically help calm the nerves of this team defensively.
2017-2018:
-First 6 games: .937 save%
-Next 5 games: .889 save%
-Next 6 games: .930 save%
-Last 9 games: .883 save%
2019-2020:
-First 18 games: .938 save%
-Last 15 games: .901 save%
2020-2021:
-First 7 games: .857 save%
My problem with Jarry is not really his talent level, it's that we have no clue what we're actually going to get from him. He has been infuriatingly inconsistent in his entire career. Sure, every goalie has good runs and bad runs, but not every goalie has only good runs and bad runs. We have no idea what Jarry actually is because he's been basically 2 goalies in his entire career, and really not much in the middle.
If you can get anyone that is more stable in net that will give you comparable overall results, you go for it just to get some semblance of relief. Having that stability in net, instead of guessing "are we getting god mode Jarry or not a NHLer Jarry?", will dramatically help calm the nerves of this team defensively.
Does MAF make us anymore of a contender then we already are with all the other flaws that even you have said this team has? The answer is no and because of that trading a 25 year old goalie making $3.5 million to pay a 36 year old making more money on an already cap strapped team makes absolutely zero sense. Even if Fleury would be playing better then Jarry (which I’m not convinced is a sure thing) this team is so flawed in so many other areas that it’s not going to make a difference. It’s literally just saying “let’s get the band back together baby!” It’s not a remotely smart decision
Empoleon8771
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To say "we won't be good enough anyway, so there's no point in upgrading shitty areas of the roster" is a really bad argument against making the change. It would be one thing to say "don't waste assets when it won't make a difference", but to say no to making clear upgrades because "we won't be good enough anyway" is a bad argument.
Lol at the idea that Fleury would be anything but a clear upgrade on Jarry. Come on now, that's ridiculous. Fleury is just a clearly better goalie than Jarry, and you'd have to be comically overrating Jarry to even begin arguing against that. Fleury's a future HHoF goalie that has been ultra consistent year to year over his entire 17 year career. We frankly have no clue what Tristan Jarry even is at this point.
Fleury is absolutely a better goalie. I have zero issue admitting that...I don’t think that makes a difference with how flawed this team currently is. I also don’t believe Fleury would be playing astronomically better if he were the starter here. He can be a better goalie but look just as bad here because of this teams defensive woes and lack of structure. We just aren’t going to agree here. You think that bringing the band back together is going to help this team get somewhere. I don’t
Empoleon8771
Registered User
You can take Fleury out of the equation entirely and I would still support upgrading the goaltending.
You can say all you want that adding a better goalie won't solve all of the issues, but what we have right now in Tristan Jarry sure as hell isn't working. And Jarry's entire career makes it questionable to even assume that he'll be what this team needs going forward.
Empoleon8771
Registered User
I also find it really weird that people would argue a proven starter like Fleury wouldn't necessarily perform better than Jarry, while Jarry is getting outperformed pretty handily by a fringe NHL goalie in Casey DeSmith.
This isn't "your starter sucks and your backup sucks even worse" type of situation that you can pin on the defense. DeSmith is performing about how you'd expect a fringe NHL goalie would perform on a bad defensive team. Jarry's performing miles below that. DeSmith is performing closer to what a league average starter would be doing (.910 save% on the Penguins according to NST) than what Jarry is doing.
This isn't "your starter sucks and your backup sucks even worse" type of situation that you can pin on the defense. DeSmith is performing about how you'd expect a fringe NHL goalie would perform on a bad defensive team. Jarry's performing miles below that. DeSmith is performing closer to what a league average starter would be doing (.910 save% on the Penguins according to NST) than what Jarry is doing.
Jarry makes a lot more sense from a cap/age perspective than MAF does. He was great last year, and I’m not ready to give up on him after a bad start to an irregular season. MAF has been amazing in Vegas this year, I don’t even think it’s likely they’d want to trade him considering his performance and Lehner faltering.
"Well we're complaining about our starting goalie...again"
Ugene Magic
EVIL LAUGH
Luckily we have two goaltenders to judge this by, and frankly, giving up 3/3+ goals per game isn't really supporting your theory (that's both goalies) that it's just the goaltending. You either are just numbers watching and going by that 100% or you are just trolling at this point. The real difference here between Jarry and DeSmith is a bloated game #1 6 goals against and game #2 3 goals in half a period where nobody was playing well. Overall, both only have a couple games of respectability.
last part: Actually there was, but the ED, being younger and lower cap hit came into play where it just made more sense to keep Murray. You still had the situation we are having now, then. Statistically, both being around 3.0 GA.
They simply were not suppressing the high danger shots anymore. You lost the guys willing to do the dirty work.
That's Bonino, Hagelin, Cole, Lovejoy, Kuhnhackl they kept removing from the team. You also have to account in how much hockey they played those two seasons and it wouldn't be wrong to say they had a let down either way. The amount of injuries and so on taking a toll wearing them down, but the nucleus was there until it wasn't.
They have been scrambling ever since to get it back. You see, just throwing a bunch of names on a piece of paper due to being good players doesn't mean they are the right mix of players. That's happen since. Oh, this guy replaces this one because he got a lot of points like saying Guenzel replaces what Kessel did. 2 totally different players and skillsets.
They simply have not really replaced what filled a lot of holes there currently is, now. They gambled and lost.
Start looking for leaders in shot blocking/ high danger shots against suppressers and you'll fix the PK and a lot of the front of the net stuff.
Funny is, Adam Larsson is tops and if Edmonton wants to let him go I'd do my best to get him. Not one Penguin in the top 40 on defense in shot blocking. Shocking, I know. Tanev is the only Penguin to show up on the top 40 for forwards. Not shocking....
2020-21 NHL Hockey Stats and League Leaders - Defensive - National Hockey League - ESPN
Empoleon8771
Registered User
The fact that you think me saying "Tristan Jarry has sucked this year" is trolling just shows how clueless this site is when it comes to goaltending. Actually, you can probably just extend that to all Penguins fans in general
Both things can be true:
1. The fact that both Jarry and DeSmith have bad numbers suggests the team defense is a big problem
2. The fact that Jarry is so massively underperforming DeSmith, who's not that good in the first place and is performing how you'd expect him to perform considering the team in front of him, suggests that Jarry has been horrid this year
But that pesky thing called "nuance" apparently isn't allowed in discussions. Things can only be black and white, it can only either be 100% team defense or 100% goaltending and there's no room for grey area.
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McCann for Bennett and I’d like to see Zucker for Mantha...
Guentzel- Sid- Mantha
Bennett- Malkin- Rust
ZAR-Blue-Kapanen
DOC-Jank-Tanev
I think is a more balanced lineup than what we’re doing now
Le Magnifique 66
Let's Go Pens
I think most just hate the contract, sure it's bad but I agree he has not been that terrible in the games he has played. hope he finds his game like a few seasons ago, he can have a great impact and possibly allow us to move a Dumo or Pettersson for futures...
Empoleon8771
Registered User
I think it would be more of POJ making one of Dumoulin or Pettersson expendable, but yeah I agree.
Dumoulin seems to be the obvious guy to move to me. He's like 5 years older than MP, which makes me think he's only going to get worse while MP may still have some room to grow. I also imagine that Dumoulin has more value than Pettersson because he's better (even with the bad start) plus he's been a top pair D on 2 cup winners. I think he's a very logical guy for Hextall to trade if they want to add some assets while not making the team today dramatically worse.
MayorofWBS
Registered User
Flames/Red Wings say no to those trades. I'm sure JR probably let Zucker keep his modified no trade clause because JR was too nice. Hell, Zucker may have the Wings blocked.
Ugene Magic
EVIL LAUGH
The fact that you think me saying "Tristan Jarry has sucked this year" is trolling just shows how clueless this site is when it comes to goaltending. Actually, you can probably just extend that to all Penguins fans in general
Both things can be true:
1. The fact that both Jarry and DeSmith have bad numbers suggests the team defense is a big problem
2. The fact that Jarry is so massively underperforming DeSmith, who's not that good in the first place and is performing how you'd expect him to perform considering the team in front of him, suggests that Jarry has been horrid this year
But that pesky thing called "nuance" apparently isn't allowed in discussions. Things can only be black and white, it can only either be 100% team defense or 100% goaltending and there's no room for grey area.
I believe it's on your end that's not allowing the grey area, you are focusing and running the goalies are the major problems. Specifically one, Jarry. From data alone.
You rely on data too much to even consider the defense should come first. We don't have to go far for that, just go back some pages. I can call a spade a spade. Both Jarry and DeSmith have been bad, but I'm not putting them on the hook for it all because, the team defense sucks ass....
The goalies are doing bad partly because of that. So replace the goalie, but that will not fix the defense, and most likely, the new goaltender flails about, too.
i don’t know why they say no to those trades except for possible cap implications...McCann has been a better player than Bennett to date and Mantha has been really inconsistent for the Wings and he’s in the doghouse, whereas Zucker is proven top six winger signed for several more years...Wings have plenty of youth..both Bennett and Mantha could use change of scenery and Zucker hasn’t really worked well consistently here either
Empoleon8771
Registered User
No, my entire argument has been grey area. Their defense is bad and their goaltending is bad. That completely a "grey area" argument. Literally no one is putting the hook completely on the goaltending.
The people who aren't engaging in any grey area are the people trying to excuse the goaltending this year because of the team defense.
No to MAF and Jarry has to be given every chance to get back to form. He has the tools and has shown to be a real good goalie last year. Pens have to consider the future and new guys seeing what he is capable of. Yes some changes are needed this year but with all the D injuries we still have to see them play some games with a decent D lineup. I also think the new guys will ask the questions that GMJR who is close to Sully never pushed. New couple of weeks of getting here practices, games ect will give the GM and brass some concrete issues that need to be handled.
I genuinely have no idea how fans can legitimately believe that their problems this year are more with defense than goaltending.
Just completely blows my mind
This is a quote from you...that’s not grey area...that’s saying goaltending is the biggest problem
Empoleon8771
Registered User
Yes, goaltending is the biggest problem while team defense also sucks. That's a grey area argument. I'm not saying "the team defense is fine and the goaltending is the only problem", I'm saying both suck and the goaltending has been the bigger issue.
Goaltending has been a dramatically bigger issue than team defense, but team defense has also been a problem. That is why DeSmith has an .885 save% right now despite him playing about as well as we can reasonably expect out of him. It's because the team defense in front of him is bad, and that's what the analytics say as well.
You also said the team defense isn’t actually as bad as we think it is and it just looks worse because the goalies aren’t bailing them out. You said that if goalies would make more saves on higher danger chances that we would just forget about them...You’re whole argument is that the team defense is “good enough” if we had a better goalie....that’s not true at all
Empoleon8771
Registered User
Which is also true. The Penguins have a bad team defense that people think is horrid because Jarry can't make a save on high danger chances. People think the Penguins defense is the worst in hockey because of that, while it is bad but not quite that bad. They're a bottom-10 defensive team with horrid goaltending.
Again, this is completely a grey area argument. Just because you're trying to portray "the defense stinks, but it isn't as bad as what people think" as "the defense is completely fine" doesn't make that true.
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