Salary Cap: Penguins salary cap and line up thread

[Darren McCord]

The alternative is retooling on the fly through trades and FA like somebody like the Rangers have done. Pittsburgh's always been a shit FA destination so that's out of the question. They have no prospects worth a damn, so unless you're shifting Jake for a 1:1--which doesn't really accomplish anything meaningful at this stage--you don't really have assets to land anyone significant.

Why rush things? This is the fourth year in a row of reality telling everyone this team's nothing. There's no rush here, it's facing the harsh reality and putting an end to the masquerade.

No argument that picks don't guarantee franchise cornerstones, but that's an awful stance. If that's the concern, why even bother with picks?

It is not an awful stance. I would argue the bigger issue is this team being stuck in the past. Signing small guys like Heinen, Simon, ZAR and Erod in the offseason. And not moving along with the rest of the NHL.

I never said picks were bad or not to change things. I just think diving head first into a rebuild with not assets is so dumb. Sign the the UFA then trade them for assets later. You do not just let half your team walk.

 

[Buddy Bizarre]

Letang will get more on the FA market than we can give him. Not a question. Whether it's MON or somewhere else out of the blue. Those guys (even at his age) just don't hit the market that often.

Do you think the FO came to Letang last summer and discussed extension?

 

[Empoleon8771]

How are cups and success emotional? But even if I give you that.

2 years is not marginal for a 3 year contract. It is literally almost the whole contract.

And you cant have this take without talking about their abilities.
If Malkin is still a ppg player at 6-7 mill any team would be dumb to just say nah go somewhere else.

Like I don't get your point. Is it just to change directions for the sake of changing directions? Or do you think Malkin will suck and we will pay a 1rst to move him?

Because what they have accomplished in the past is entirely irrelevant to whether signing them going into the future is the right move.

I was not comparing Marleau to Malkin, hell I didn't even mention any player in my initial post. The first sentence in that post was "This team hasn't done enough in the last 4 years for me to particularly give a crap if Hextall decided to go in a different direction." Those guys are good players, but this team isn't in a position where losing them would make or break their ability to contend. Their window is closed already.

If they keep them, that's fine. If they let them go, that's fine. It's not going to materially impact whether this team will win because they're not winning with or without them. The only way I'd feel bad about them leaving is from the emotional "I wish they would have been lifers" POV.

 

[Pens1566]

Do you think the FO came to Letang last summer and discussed extension?

No clue, I don't work in either camp.

But I'm not sure what that has to do with the guarantee that someone out there (waves hands) will give him a bigger deal than we will.

 

[Big Friggin Dummy]

It is not an awful stance. I would argue the bigger issue is this team being stuck in the past. Signing small guys like Heinen, Simon, ZAR and Erod in the offseason. And not moving along with the rest of the NHL.

I never said picks were bad or not to change things. I just think diving head first into a rebuild with not assets is so dumb. Sign the the UFA then trade them for assets later. You do not just let half your team walk.

Throwing your hands up and saying "we can't highly value top-5 picks because it's not a guarantee they work out" is an awful stance, though. That's how good teams are built, with very rare exceptions. They scout well, they draft well, they develop well, and with a heaping helping of luck, they build from within. Being overly concerned with whether or not those picks work out, to the degree of endlessly pushing back the inevitable as if it's somehow escapable, is an awful stance.

The only difference between this team's current position and the Coyotes' is the fact that the Coyotes are getting top-5 picks and this team's getting picks right around 25th overall. Neither organization has any realistic chance at the Cup within the next 5+ years. That's reality, and people gotta stop thinking through the scope of Sid/Geno being 25 and this team still being a Cup contender.

If (when--because again, I believe Geno *and* Letang will be back) the big names are re-signed, it'll be because of sentimental stuff, and jersey/ticket sales. Not because this team is still in a position to contend, or because the people in charge believe they can.

 

[Darren McCord]

Because what they have accomplished in the past is entirely irrelevant to whether signing them going into the future is the right move.

I was not comparing Marleau to Malkin, hell I didn't even mention any player in my initial post. The first sentence in that post was "This team hasn't done enough in the last 4 years for me to particularly give a crap if Hextall decided to go in a different direction." Those guys are good players, but this team isn't in a position where losing them would make or break their ability to contend. Their window is closed already.

If they keep them, that's fine. If they let them go, that's fine. It's not going to materially impact whether this team will win because they're not winning with or without them. The only way I'd feel bad about them leaving is from the emotional "I wish they would have been lifers" POV.

Ehh I guess but I think letting all the UFA goes would be a terrible asset management. Sign them and move them later if you want. If Malkin keeps putting up a ppg, he will still be worth value to a contender. You could even retain. One of Rakell or Rust needs to stay. You can also move either of them in a year or two if you want.

I just think the let everyone walk strategy is stupid. You aren't getting anything better in FA. Keep the guys and move them later for capital.

 

[Darren McCord]

Throwing your hands up and saying "we can't highly value top-5 picks because it's not a guarantee they work out" is an awful stance, though. That's how good teams are built, with very rare exceptions. They scout well, they draft well, they develop well, and with a heaping helping of luck, they build from within. Being overly concerned with whether or not those picks work out, to the degree of endlessly pushing back the inevitable as if it's somehow escapable, is an awful stance.

The only difference between this team's current position and the Coyotes' is the fact that the Coyotes are getting top-5 picks and this team's getting picks right around 25th overall. Neither organization has any realistic chance at the Cup within the next 5+ years. That's reality, and people gotta stop thinking through the scope of Sid/Geno being 25 and this team still being a Cup contender.

If (when--because again, I believe Geno *and* Letang will be back) the big names are re-signed, it'll be because of sentimental stuff, and jersey/ticket sales. Not because this team is still in a position to contend, or because the people in charge believe they can.

Agian it is just bad assets management to let everyone walk thats all. You sign and then tried them later. If they drop off that bad then you still have the top 5 pick. The reality is if you want a top 5 pick you trade Jake and Sid too. There isnt a middle ground where everyone walks but you keep your two best forwards and still end up with top 5 picks.

Name the last team to get a top 5 pick with a 100pt forward?

 

[SEALBound]

Agian it is just bad assets management to let everyone walk thats all. You sign and then tried them later. If they drop off that bad then you still have the top 5 pick. The reality is if you want a top 5 pick you trade Jake and Sid too. There isnt a middle ground where everyone walks but you keep your two best forwards and still end up with top 5 picks.

Name the last team to get a top 5 pick with a 100pt forward?

To a point. But you don't trade off Malkin, Letang, and Rust at the TDL for assets because you're afraid they'll walk. Great, you got some picks and some prospects but the more global, long-term losses can come back to bite you.

 

[Big Friggin Dummy]

Agian it is just bad assets management to let everyone walk thats all. You sign and then tried them later. If they drop off that bad then you still have the top 5 pick. The reality is if you want a top 5 pick you trade Jake and Sid too. There isnt a middle ground where everyone walks but you keep your two best forwards and still end up with top 5 picks.

Name the last team to get a top 5 pick with a 100pt forward?

Nobody's gonna trade for a 36+ year old, battered Evgeni Malkin making like $7-8 million a year. C'mon dude. People outside of Pittsburgh, who don't have black and gold colored glasses, aren't gonna value that asset.

Re-signing these guys just to trade them later is asinine. The only reason to keep them around is because people can't let go of the past 15+ years. It's emotion and sentimental crap, that's all. Call it like it is.

And yeah, trade Sid and Jake too. I'm not attached to professional athlete strangers.

-edit- For the record, this is just my stance. I fully expect next to no real changes aside from Rust walking, and maybe the team trading Zucker and Kap. The former because he hasn't worked out, the latter because he hasn't worked out and Sully hates him.

 

[Darren McCord]

Nobody's gonna trade for a 36+ year old, battered Evgeni Malkin making like $7-8 million a year. C'mon dude. People outside of Pittsburgh, who don't have black and gold colored glasses, aren't gonna value that asset.

Re-signing these guys just to trade them later is asinine. The only reason to keep them around is because people can't let go of the past 15+ years. It's emotion and sentimental crap, that's all. Call it like it is.

And yeah, trade Sid and Jake too. I'm not attached to professional athlete strangers.

-edit- For the record, this is just my stance. I fully expect next to no real changes aside from Rust walking, and maybe the team trading Zucker and Kap. The former because he hasn't worked out, the latter because he hasn't worked out and Sully hates him.

meh Giroux is 34 and just netted a first and Tippet when he said he would only go to one team. Don't underestimate dumb GM's.

I get what your saying. I just guess if you burn it all down then burn it all down.

I just don't want Sullivan to be the last man standing lol

 

[Darren McCord]

Great, you got some picks and some prospects but the more global, long-term losses can come back to bite you.

I will be honest. I have no idea what this means lol

 

[canadianguy77]

Nobody's gonna trade for a 36+ year old, battered Evgeni Malkin making like $7-8 million a year. C'mon dude. People outside of Pittsburgh, who don't have black and gold colored glasses, aren't gonna value that asset.

Re-signing these guys just to trade them later is asinine. The only reason to keep them around is because people can't let go of the past 15+ years. It's emotion and sentimental crap, that's all. Call it like it is.

And yeah, trade Sid and Jake too. I'm not attached to professional athlete strangers.

-edit- For the record, this is just my stance. I fully expect next to no real changes aside from Rust walking, and maybe the team trading Zucker and Kap. The former because he hasn't worked out, the latter because he hasn't worked out and Sully hates him.

If I’m a contender who thinks I’m real close, I’m more than willing to throw some high picks and prospects at the idea of having Evgeni Malkin center my 3rd line. It’s insanity to think he has no value.

 

[Big Friggin Dummy]

meh Giroux is 34 and just netted a first and Tippet when he said he would only go to one team. Don't underestimate dumb GM's.

I get what your saying. I just guess if you burn it all down then burn it all down.

I just don't want Sullivan to be the last man standing lol

Giroux doesn't miss 25+ games a season, and he went to a team gunning full bore for the Cup. He also has like a $4.1 million cap hit. Pretty substantial differences, if we're being fair.

I can't even muster the f***s to care about Sullivan anymore tbh. He's annoying, and an egomaniac, but he's not holding a good team back. In reality, the team's flawed as shit. The only thing I'm concerned with re: Sully is that he isn't in charge for the next chapter. I don't want this guy, with his tendencies, to be in charge of molding the game of the next handful of premiere prospects this team ends up with. Hypothetically, we blow it up this summer and tank hard, and we end up landing Bedard--I don't want Sullivan to be the guy to shape the beginning of that guy's NHL career. You'd potentially be looking at a coach f*** up the development and hold a kid back like Ducharme did for Cole Caufield, or like Barry Melrose holding back Stamkos back in the day.

 

[SEALBound]

I will be honest. I have no idea what this means lol

I'll direct you towards the answer this way - do you think people look favorably on the Vegas Golden Knights with how they handle their players? Do you think that has the potential to impact other players from wanting to sign there?

 

[Darren McCord]

Giroux doesn't miss 25+ games a season, and he went to a team gunning full bore for the Cup. He also has like a $4.1 million cap hit. Pretty substantial differences, if we're being fair.

I can't even muster the f***s to care about Sullivan anymore tbh. He's annoying, and an egomaniac, but he's not holding a good team back. In reality, the team's flawed as shit. The only thing I'm concerned with re: Sully is that he isn't in charge for the next chapter. I don't want this guy, with his tendencies, to be in charge of molding the game of the next handful of premiere prospects this team ends up with. Hypothetically, we blow it up this summer and tank hard, and we end up landing Bedard--I don't want Sullivan to be the guy to shape the beginning of that guy's NHL career. You'd potentially be looking at a coach f*** up the development and hold a kid back like Ducharme did for Cole Caufield, or like Barry Melrose holding back Stamkos back in the day.

You actually think Malkin would be moved at full value vs like 3.5mil? Also sullivan will be even more unbearable as a fan. I dont want to watch him talking about them just not getting result after losing 5 -2 each game. So yes I would care about Sullivan. I would rather a clown like Torts to keep me entertained throughout a rebuild.

 

[Big Friggin Dummy]

If I’m a contender who thinks I’m real close, I’m more than willing to throw some high picks and prospects at the idea of having Evgeni Malkin center my 3rd line. It’s insanity to think he has no value.

Maybe. But he's also gonna be getting like $8 million, so the Pens would have to eat 50%, and he's absolutely getting a full NMC, so you're potentially looking at a Giroux situation where he has full control over the situation and can axe any trade before it happens.

 

[Darren McCord]

I'll direct you towards the answer this way - do you think people look favorably on the Vegas Golden Knights with how they handle their players? Do you think that has the potential to impact other players from wanting to sign there?

ooo that makes sense but I think it is different scenario. If Malkin was getting traded he would have a say. Rust being moved in two or three years after being with the team for 8 or 9 would be nothing like Vegas.

Vegas literally burns through guys yearly who they just traded for. You cant compare that to guys moving after being on a team for years. I dont think the Pens would do these players dirty.

How many times was Perron signed and moved by the Blues? Lol you can do it respectfully

 

[Darren McCord]

Maybe. But he's also gonna be getting like $8 million, so the Pens would have to eat 50%, and he's absolutely getting a full NMC, so you're potentially looking at a Giroux situation where he has full control over the situation and can axe any trade before it happens.

Id take a first and Tippet forward for 4million in dead cap.

 

[Big Friggin Dummy]

You actually think Malkin would be moved at full value vs like 3.5mil? Also sullivan will be even more unbearable as a fan. I dont want to watch him talking about them just not getting result after losing 5 -2 each game. So yes I would care about Sullivan. I would rather a clown like Torts to keep me entertained throughout a rebuild.

That whole coach-speak is gonna be anybody behind the bench though. Sully's just a symptom of the greater issue of the league itself being boring, too structured, and risk averse. Very few coaches are gonna be like "this game sucked, X and Y have to be better". It's all gonna be pre-fabricated garbage like "we just let this one get away from us, didn't play out game".

And like I said in the post to canadianguy, there's a lot that goes into moving a Geno. You are absolutely going to have to give him a full NMC if you re-sign him. You're absolutely gonna have to give him a big chunk of money, so for him to be *any* kind of attractive as an asset, you're gonna have to retain 50% in a trade. There's a lot of moving parts and you're banking on things going perfectly as opposed to a situation like Giroux where he basically told the Flyers to f*** off.

 

[Big Friggin Dummy]

Id take a first and Tippet forward for 4million in dead cap.

Tippet sucks shit, though. He's a Kapanen, a Galchenyuk in the making--if that.

-edit- Also, just to rib you a bit, I thought 1sts were no big deal.

 

[Empoleon8771]

Ehh I guess but I think letting all the UFA goes would be a terrible asset management. Sign them and move them later if you want. If Malkin keeps putting up a ppg, he will still be worth value to a contender. You could even retain. One of Rakell or Rust needs to stay. You can also move either of them in a year or two if you want.

I just think the let everyone walk strategy is stupid. You aren't getting anything better in FA. Keep the guys and move them later for capital.

Why would letting them walk be awful asset management? It's not "lose them for nothing or keep them", it's "give them money or give some UFAs that money". You don't plan on re-signing guys just to trade them in the future.

 

[Darren McCord]

Tippet sucks shit, though. He's a Kapanen, a Galchenyuk in the making--if that.

-edit- Also, just to rib you a bit, I thought 1sts were no big deal.

lol picks are great but give me a playoff team who picks the next Vasi at #19 than a bottom feeder picking the next Yakupov at #1

Also GM's are dumb and always over pay for names. A 38 Martin St Louis got 2 first.

You don't plan on re-signing guys just to trade them in the future.

Lol thats literally how shrew GM's rebuild and gain assets. They sign guys pump up their value and trade them when they are out of the playoffs

 

[Empoleon8771]

Lol thats literally how shrew GM's rebuild and gain assets. They sign guys pump up their value and trade them when they are out of the playoffs

What GM has done this?

Letting them walk is only bad asset management in the context of "you could have traded them while they were still under contract". Re-signing or not re-signing them has no impact on whether it is bad asset management, because you're just going to use that money elsewhere and have those guys as potential trade chips down the line. You already lost your chance at getting assets back for guys like Malkin, Letang and Rust.

 

[Big Friggin Dummy]

lol picks are great but give me a playoff team who picks the next Vasi at #19 than a bottom feeder picking the next Yakupov at #1


Lol thats literally how shrew GM's rebuild and gain assets. They sign guys pump up their value and trade them when they are out of the playoffs

How about the next Draisaitl, Heiskanen or Makar at 3rd or 4th? Or Barkov at 2nd? For as many misses, there are also hits. Franchise-altering, cornerstone players you build upon. (Granted, the Oilers are absolutely incompetent and the Stars are missing some pieces still)

Also, f*** the playoffs. If you've got no shot at the Cup, they don't matter. (This is gonna sound more harsh than intended, but I can't think of another way to phrase it--so no offense intended) The only people that give a shit about watching this team play 4-7 playoff games with zero realistic shot at competing with the teams miles ahead of them Cup-wise are people who can't let go of the idea that the era's over, and that Sid/Geno just don't have what it takes to will mediocre, flawed rosters to the Cup Finals anymore at their age.

 

[Darren McCord]

The only people that give a shit about watching this team play 4-7 playoff games with zero realistic shot at competing with the teams miles ahead of them Cup-wise are people who can't let go of the idea that the era's over, and that Sid/Geno just don't have what it takes to will mediocre, flawed rosters to the Cup Finals anymore at their age.

I will be honest this comes across pretty spoiled statement. The pens have been lucky to have 4 generational stars in the past 30 years. When the Sid and Geno Era end, you may not have an actual cup contending team for 20 or 30 more years. Look at the leafs.

Like will you even watch penguins hockey anymore? It is an honest question.