Peak Modano-Forsberg-Bure vs. Zetterberg-Malkin-Kane for a playoff run

[GreatGonzo]

The post above shows why.

I mean I understand, but to say Modano was “not close” to Zetterberg offensively is very misleading. Modano played in a significantly lower scoring era, and carried his own line. Zetterberg played a lot with Datsyuk in those years on his wing. He compared Modano who scored 50 goals and 93 points playing with lesser company at the age of 23. Modanos later seasons are much more impressive statistically than his early ones and was much better defensively. ‘03 Modano offensively is close to ‘08, and in a significantly lower scoring era with significantly lesser talent around him.

Zetterberg has the higher offensive peak, but I don’t see how that makes him better than Modanos overall production on both ends. Doesn’t mean Zetterberg wasn’t a beast as well, but Modano was much more consistent.

 

[Asheville]

Zetterberg rendered a generational player completely useless two SCFs in a row, but OK...

True, but that's not enough to compensate for Kane's and Geno's backchecking shortcomings. At least Bure played D now and then, and excellently so when the mood struck him.

 

[GreatGonzo]

Zetterberg rendered a generational player completely useless two SCFs in a row, but OK...

Hard to call Crosby’s 6 points in 6 games in ‘08 “useless.”

No one is saying Zetterberg isn’t strong defensively, but he’s the only one out of his line. Modano and Forsberg are known for their defensive abilities while maintaining a high level of offense. I feel even Bure was better defensively than Kane, even if he didn’t show it all the time.

 

[Nadal On Clay]

Your still trying to say Forsberg was “perfectly healthy”.......as if he was fully rested. He had his damn spleen removed the year prior, obviously if he could play he would have, but physically it was out of the question. But to continue to suggest that Forsberg was %100 and that’s why he performed how he did is just ridiculous. You also forget that he led the playoffs in scoring in ‘99 without making the finals after playing 78 games in the regular season. He was fully capable of doing it.

Forsberg, for a majority of his career was a top playoff performer. His playoff numbers rival Crosby, can be argued as better than Malkin.

Maybe he wasn’t fully healthy, but he was certainly healthier than 80% of the league and the most rested in the playoffs that year. He got his best playoff performance to show for it. I’m not saying it’s the reason for his great run, but it still has to be taken into consideration.

 

[Nadal On Clay]

True, but that's not enough to compensate for Kane's and Geno's backchecking shortcomings. At least Bure played D now and then, and excellently so when the mood struck him.

You’re acting like Kane and Malkin don’t know how to play defense.. Peak playoff Kane and Malkin would be harder to handle than you’d think. There is no landslide.

 

[Nadal On Clay]

I mean I understand, but to say Modano was “not close” to Zetterberg offensively is very misleading. Modano played in a significantly lower scoring era, and carried his own line. Zetterberg played a lot with Datsyuk in those years on his wing. He compared Modano who scored 50 goals and 93 points playing with lesser company at the age of 23. Modanos later seasons are much more impressive statistically than his early ones and was much better defensively. ‘03 Modano offensively is close to ‘08, and in a significantly lower scoring era with significantly lesser talent around him.

Zetterberg has the higher offensive peak, but I don’t see how that makes him better than Modanos overall production on both ends. Doesn’t mean Zetterberg wasn’t a beast as well, but Modano was much more consistent.

Who cares about consistency in a Peak comparaison?

Zetterberg ‘08 is better than any version of Modano in the playoffs.

 

[bathdog]

Maybe he wasn’t fully healthy, but he was certainly healthier than 80% of the league and the most rested in the playoffs that year. He got his best playoff performance to show for it. I’m not saying it’s the reason for his great run, but it still has to be taken into consideration.

Does it really matter though, when the run was preceeded by leading the playoffs in scoring in 1999, and leading the playoffs in scoring in 2001 at the time his spleen imploded?

We can apply context to everything. How about the scoring environments during each players 3 respective first rounds? How about Malkin catching a big break in 2009 with Datsyuk out injured Wings focused on Z/Lids on Crosby, Malkin went head to head against Filppula plus probably Kronwall or Stuart most of the time if I'm not mistaken. Scored 7 of his 8 finals points in the first 4 games, then 1 assist in 3 games on the brink of elimination after Datsyuk's return.

You’re acting like Kane and Malkin don’t know how to play defense.. Peak playoff Kane and Malkin would be harder to handle than you’d think. There is no landslide.

Nobody is going to mistake either one for a Selke candidate, the idea that you suggest Kane will 'be hard to handle' defensively is borderline laughable. Both are obviously absolute game breakers offensively.

 

[Jordan Belfort]

Malkin, Kane, and bure don’t TOUCH any of the new three.... I love when new fans try and say these players are better than the 90s players...it’s really not close at all

 

[wetcoast]

oh and forsberg sat out the entire regular season in 2002 when he outscored everybody, funny how his biggest fans always leave out that fact

I read this a couple of times and really have no idea on what you are talking about here.

 

[wetcoast]

Am I the only one who thinks folks overrate Forsberg based on a PPG average that never tapered down because his career was cut short? He played 11 games after the age of 33.

Great player, but overrated.

Fine then just rate his PPG average and compare him to players up to the age of 33 then.

He still stands out, especially in the playoffs.

 

[newfy]

I mean I understand, but to say Modano was “not close” to Zetterberg offensively is very misleading. Modano played in a significantly lower scoring era, and carried his own line. Zetterberg played a lot with Datsyuk in those years on his wing. He compared Modano who scored 50 goals and 93 points playing with lesser company at the age of 23. Modanos later seasons are much more impressive statistically than his early ones and was much better defensively. ‘03 Modano offensively is close to ‘08, and in a significantly lower scoring era with significantly lesser talent around him.

Zetterberg has the higher offensive peak, but I don’t see how that makes him better than Modanos overall production on both ends. Doesn’t mean Zetterberg wasn’t a beast as well, but Modano was much more consistent.

The post I was replying to said that he would take 50 goal Modano over anything Zetterberg had done. That 50 goal season was not as impressive as Zetterberg in 07-08, I think that much is clear. I dont care if he was 23, age is irrelevant to the discussion. At that time Zetterberg was definitely better than Modano.

As for his other seasons, I still dont really think Modano ever really hit the same level of offense as Zetterberg did that year. Extremely close but I would still give Zetterberg the edge. Zetterberg finished third in Selke voting that year as well. So at worst you can say they were pretty close at their absolute best in the regular season (I think Zetterberg still has an edge in regular season) but 07-08 playoff Zetterberg won the Conn Smythe and had a playoff run that Modano never came close to.

Modano being consistent has nothing to do with this poll at all.

 

[GreatGonzo]

Maybe he wasn’t fully healthy, but he was certainly healthier than 80% of the league and the most rested in the playoffs that year. He got his best playoff performance to show for it. I’m not saying it’s the reason for his great run, but it still has to be taken into consideration.

Again you can’t just claim that because it helps your argument. Saying he was healthier than 80% of the league after having to take a whole year off due to serious injuries and surgeries just holds little truth or even proof.

You can’t keep bending the story to your liking.

Who cares about consistency in a Peak comparaison?

Zetterberg ‘08 is better than any version of Modano in the playoffs.

It does matter. Forsberg was more consistent but I clearly stated that malkins peak was amazing.

Again, debatable. But I agree Zetterberg was awesome.

 

[GreatGonzo]

The post I was replying to said that he would take 50 goal Modano over anything Zetterberg had done. That 50 goal season was not as impressive as Zetterberg in 07-08, I think that much is clear. I dont care if he was 23, age is irrelevant to the discussion. At that time Zetterberg was definitely better than Modano.

As for his other seasons, I still dont really think Modano ever really hit the same level of offense as Zetterberg did that year. Extremely close but I would still give Zetterberg the edge. Zetterberg finished third in Selke voting that year as well. So at worst you can say they were pretty close at their absolute best in the regular season (I think Zetterberg still has an edge in regular season) but 07-08 playoff Zetterberg won the Conn Smythe and had a playoff run that Modano never came close to.

Modano being consistent has nothing to do with this poll at all.

I see. It’s still a lot of factors to get taken into account. Like I stated, Zetterberg was stated by 97 point, selke winning Datsyuk.

Like I stated before, Zetterberg peaked higher for sure but Modano was more consistent. I stated consistency because many on here are saying Zetterberg was better than Modano, but I’ve said it’s close regardless.

 

[Nadal On Clay]

Again you can’t just claim that because it helps your argument. Saying he was healthier than 80% of the league after having to take a whole year off due to serious injuries and surgeries just holds little truth or even proof.

You can’t keep bending the story to your liking.


It does matter. Forsberg was more consistent but I clearly stated that malkins peak was amazing.

Again, debatable. But I agree Zetterberg was awesome.

I don’t know the whole story exactly, but I’m pretty sure Forsberg didn’t just became healthy at the exact time the playoffs started. The team might have told him to sit the last 2 weeks or so of the RS to be more rested for the playoffs. It’s a truth, I’m not inventing anything. He was simply more rested than anyone else.

 

[Nadal On Clay]

Does it really matter though, when the run was preceeded by leading the playoffs in scoring in 1999, and leading the playoffs in scoring in 2001 at the time his spleen imploded?

We can apply context to everything. How about the scoring environments during each players 3 respective first rounds? How about Malkin catching a big break in 2009 with Datsyuk out injured Wings focused on Z/Lids on Crosby, Malkin went head to head against Filppula plus probably Kronwall or Stuart most of the time if I'm not mistaken. Scored 7 of his 8 finals points in the first 4 games, then 1 assist in 3 games on the brink of elimination after Datsyuk's return.



Nobody is going to mistake either one for a Selke candidate, the idea that you suggest Kane will 'be hard to handle' defensively is borderline laughable. Both are obviously absolute game breakers offensively.

Malkin played with Ruslan Fedotenko and Maxime Talbot for basically the entirety of his playoff run. He produced at a consistent level through all 4 rounds and there is nothing that would suggest he would’ve had less points had he played vs better competition.

When I say “hard to handle”, I obviously talk about their offensive arsenal.

 

[GreatGonzo]

I don’t know the whole story exactly, but I’m pretty sure Forsberg didn’t just became healthy at the exact time the playoffs started. The team might have told him to sit the last 2 weeks or so of the RS to be more rested for the playoffs. It’s a truth, I’m not inventing anything. He was simply more rested than anyone else.

I agree everyone is dealing with injuries going into the playoffs and not having to play the 82 games would make him more “rested.” My point is let’s not talk like he wasn’t in Recovery that whole time and physically getting himself back to where he can actually skate.

Your right, players do it all the time and it makes perfect sense. But like I said, stating he was healthier than 80% of the league is a weird statement, and IMO is an attempt to
Make his run seem less impressive.

 

[nudie]

Then the same logic applies that since Forsberg sat out a whole year he wasn't up to game speed and touch which everyone else was at that point. Not drawing big comparisons to W Nylander but looked how shitty he performs after slacking after the other players who played. As usual he thought he was shit in the first game vs LA, after making 2 assists.

He sat out the 02 olympics that winter as well, which he as most swedes values as high as a stanley cup win, he obviously wasn't ready just a couple months before the playoffs.

 

[GordieHowsUrBreath]

I read this a couple of times and really have no idea on what you are talking about here.

of course you don't, how convenient for forsberg fans to forget or be completely unaware because it diminishes one of his biggest claims to fame...

 

[wetcoast]

of course you don't, how convenient for forsberg fans to forget or be completely unaware because it diminishes one of his biggest claims to fame...

Your assertion was ridiculous though, we all know he missed the 01-02 season due to injuries.

we can also see how good of a player he was in the year before and year after.

In 00-01, he was 9th in scoring and 11th in selke voting despite playing in 73 games

In 01-02 he leads the NHL playoffs in scoring, just look how long it's taken Nylander to come up to speed

In 03 he wins the Art Ross, 4th in Selke and the Hart in 75 games.

It doesn't take being a fan to see how elite he was for over 10 straight years in the NHL.

 

[wetcoast]

Malkin played with Ruslan Fedotenko and Maxime Talbot for basically the entirety of his playoff run. He produced at a consistent level through all 4 rounds and there is nothing that would suggest he would’ve had less points had he played vs better competition.

When I say “hard to handle”, I obviously talk about their offensive arsenal.

Well truth be told neither Malkin or Crosby played with good linemates, except when they played with each other.

To the part in bold here are the TOI for the 3 guys you list above in the playoffs.

Malkin 20:57
Talbot:15:14
Fedotenko 14:13

Also it is well documented that the best shutdown forwards and Dmen for the Red Wings were matched up against Crosby that SC final, for the most part.

Malkin had a great Conn Smythe deserved playoffs, no need to make stuff up.

 

[GordieHowsUrBreath]

Your assertion was ridiculous though, we all know he missed the 01-02 season due to injuries.

we can also see how good of a player he was in the year before and year after.

In 00-01, he was 9th in scoring and 11th in selke voting despite playing in 73 games

In 01-02 he leads the NHL playoffs in scoring, just look how long it's taken Nylander to come up to speed

In 03 he wins the Art Ross, 4th in Selke and the Hart in 75 games.

It doesn't take being a fan to see how elite he was for over 10 straight years in the NHL.

what does any of that have to do with his best playoff year?

oh another thing you forsberg fans always conveniently forget, he missed the conference and cup finals in 2001 when the Avs won the cup

 

[bathdog]

Malkin played with Ruslan Fedotenko and Maxime Talbot for basically the entirety of his playoff run. He produced at a consistent level through all 4 rounds and there is nothing that would suggest he would’ve had less points had he played vs better competition.

Well truth be told neither Malkin or Crosby played with good linemates, except when they played with each other.

To the part in bold here are the TOI for the 3 guys you list above in the playoffs.

Malkin 20:57
Talbot:15:14
Fedotenko 14:13

Also it is well documented that the best shutdown forwards and Dmen for the Red Wings were matched up against Crosby that SC final, for the most part.

Malkin had a great Conn Smythe deserved playoffs, no need to make stuff up.

I agree, Forsberg generally had better line mates at even strength. It's hard to quantify the effect. But as wetcoast is touching on, maybe that isn't telling the entire story considering Malkin scored 44% of his points on the PP where Talbot and Fedotenko combined for a total of 8:55 through the entire playoffs, and Malkin played north of 119 minutes, which is the 3rd most of any forward since the 05/06 lockout. Meanwhile, Forsberg only scored 26% of his points on the PP. playing 70 minutes on the PP good for 63rd most among forward 95-04.

 

[Nadal On Clay]

Well truth be told neither Malkin or Crosby played with good linemates, except when they played with each other.

To the part in bold here are the TOI for the 3 guys you list above in the playoffs.

Malkin 20:57
Talbot:15:14
Fedotenko 14:13

Also it is well documented that the best shutdown forwards and Dmen for the Red Wings were matched up against Crosby that SC final, for the most part.

Malkin had a great Conn Smythe deserved playoffs, no need to make stuff up.

This reeks of insecurity. Why do you need to bring Crosby in the discussion? Guerin-Kunitz >>> Fedotenko-Talbot anyways.

Im not making stuff up. Malkin had the best offensive playoff performance of the century playing with bottom 6ers on his line.

 

[Nadal On Clay]

I agree, Forsberg generally had better line mates at even strength. It's hard to quantify the effect. But as wetcoast is touching on, maybe that isn't telling the entire story considering Malkin scored 44% of his points on the PP where Talbot and Fedotenko combined for a total of 8:55 through the entire playoffs, and Malkin played north of 119 minutes, which is the 3rd most of any forward since the 05/06 lockout. Meanwhile, Forsberg only scored 26% of his points on the PP. playing 70 minutes on the PP good for 63rd most among forward 95-04.

Pittsburgh and Colorado basically had the same PPOs in their respective playoff runs. It’s not like Colorado’s PP unit was trash too. You cant fault Malkin for being a great PP player.

Here’s Malkin 4 most common linemates at ES during the 2009 playoffs followed by their point totals

1 - R. Fedotenko (14 pts)
2 - M. Talbot (13 pts)
3 - M. Satan (6 pts)
4 - P. Sykora (1 pt)

Malkin - 36 pts
Malkin’s 4 most common linemates at ES combined - 34 pts

 

[wetcoast]

what does any of that have to do with his best playoff year?

oh another thing you forsberg fans always conveniently forget, he missed the conference and cup finals in 2001 when the Avs won the cup

Peter is the guy driving the bus in Colorado during his years there with Sakic

Player Season Finder | Hockey-Reference.com

Sakic was good but Forsberg was a bit better.