Peak Modano-Forsberg-Bure vs. Zetterberg-Malkin-Kane for a playoff run

[GordieHowsUrBreath]

What’s your point? You have to create an alternative reality in order to have a point? Would they have? I mean if Ovechkin made it to the conference finals, maybe he would have led the playoffs in scoring....making “what ifs” and treating them like reality doesn’t work.

Because most posters here are young. It’s a common fact. And with that comes a lot of post lockout flexing in terms of talent.....with little to no knowledge outside of YouTube in terms of any players 20, 30, 40, 50+ years ago.

i think both crosby and malkin had about 30 points after the eastern final in 2009

nobody on carolina would've come close to topping that if they some how beat the pens, and zetterberg finished with about 26 points that year, so yeah crosby and malkin would've led the playoffs in scoring if they missed the final just like forsberg did in 2002

where are the "facts" that show most of the posters here are young, and what age is considered "young" around here"

youtube has actual game film and highlights, it doesn't take an eye for talent to see those guys from the 50's and 60's couldn't play today

 

[GordieHowsUrBreath]

Lol what, there are known posters here who weren't born when Forsberg was at his peak.

like who and how many? most people here are old hence the constant nostalgia for the games distant past

 

[Bileur]

Interesting discussion. Tough to compare because like it or not the guys who went through 90s playoffs dealt with things the more recent guys never came close to having to overcome.

I went with the side that has peak Forsberg because peak Forsberg is one of the most dominant forces I’ve ever seen. He had it all.

 

[GreatGonzo]

i think both crosby and malkin had about 30 points after the eastern final in 2009

nobody on carolina would've come close to topping that if they some how beat the pens, and zetterberg finished with about 26 points that year, so yeah crosby and malkin would've led the playoffs in scoring if they missed the final just like forsberg did in 2002

where are the "facts" that show most of the posters here are young, and what age is considered "young" around here"

youtube has actual game film and highlights, it doesn't take an eye for talent to see those guys from the 50's and 60's couldn't play today

They both had 28, so let’s say Carolina makes the finals against Detroit. Zetterberg ended the playoffs with 24 points, if we are simply creating narratives out of thin air....let’s say Zetterberg gets an extra 4-5 points, which is entirely possible. I can create an alternative too and just go off of it, proving you wrong.....right?

But they didn’t, Forsberg did. All your should of and could of nonesense doesn’t belong anywhere in this conversation. As much as you would like to convince yourself of this and that, maybe come back down to reality where Forsberg lead the playoffs in scoring twice without even making the finals, where as Crosby only did once(‘08).

Maybe look around, entertain yourself.....it isn’t hard to understand that a lot of posters here are young....I’m guessing like yourself.

YouTube is now evidence of a players rise and demise. People even still call out Gretzky for his time in the 80s based on YouTube games. It’s fine if that’s your only means of historic footage and actual knowledge, but it’s sad....sorry to break it to you.

 

[Nadal On Clay]

Except Malkin in 2009 didn't face Zetterberg, Rafalski and Lidstrom every shift like Crosby which allowed him to pull away easier in the finals. IIRC he also scored the bulk of his 8 points that series in the games before Datsyuk returned and matched up with him. Forsberg generally faced tougher defensive teams throughout the playoffs and tougher defensive matchups like Crosby did.

IIRC Malkin had 2 pts after Datsyuk came back. Yes, he generally had the lower competition, but he did play with bottom Sixers for the most part at ES.

 

[bathdog]

IIRC Malkin had 2 pts after Datsyuk came back. Yes, he generally had the lower competition, but he did play with bottom Sixers for the most part at ES.

This is factually incorrect. Datsyuk returned for game 5, Detroit lead the series 3-1 then. During the last three games:

Malkin: 3GP 0G 1A
Datsyuk: 3GP 0G 2A

Crosby: 3GP 0G 0A
Zetterberg: 3GP 1G 1A

His line mates weren't all that, but to be fair Malkin scored 4 of his 8 finals points on the PP. This is how those bottom sixers finished the series:

Fedotenko: 3GP 0G 1A
Talbot: 3GP 2G 1A

 

[Syrinx]

Forsberg is the most dominant playoff player of the past 20 years.

Modano and Forsberg were also elite defensively while only Zetterberg can play defense for Malkin’s team.

In the last 20 years, Forsberg has 92 points in 83 playoff games. He is not the most dominant playoff player of the past 20 years.

 

[Nadal On Clay]

This is factually incorrect. Datsyuk returned for game 5, Detroit lead the series 3-1 then. During the last three games:

Malkin: 3GP 0G 1A
Datsyuk: 3GP 0G 2A

Crosby: 3GP 0G 0A
Zetterberg: 3GP 1G 1A

His line mates weren't all that, but to be fair Malkin scored 4 of his 8 finals points on the PP. This is how those bottom sixers finished the series:

Fedotenko: 3GP 0G 1A
Talbot: 3GP 2G 1A

You are going to argue that Talbot, Fedotenko, Sykora and Satan weren’t bottom 6 players?

For the bolded part, “tHiS iS fAcTuAlLy InCoRrEcT, sErIeS wAs TiEd 2-2.”

It was Talbot’s best 3 game stretch of the playoffs and game 7 was probably the best of his life, but let’s not pretend he did anything significant offensively earlier in the playoffs.

 

[bathdog]

You are going to argue that Talbot, Fedotenko, Sykora and Satan weren’t bottom 6 players?

For the bolded part, “tHiS iS fAcTuAlLy InCoRrEcT, sErIeS wAs TiEd 2-2.”

It was Talbot’s best 3 game stretch of the playoffs and game 7 was probably the best of his life, but let’s not pretend he did anything significant offensively earlier in the playoffs.

You're correct. I was mixing up the series standings with the 2008 finals. The rest is correct though.

No, I don't think they're elite offensive players, but it was the secondary scoring that decided the series, regardless of the narrative you're trying to push. That you have to either act like a child or completely dismiss people that challenge your arguments reeks of insecurity.

 

[Nadal On Clay]

You're correct. I was mixing up the series standings with the 2008 finals. The rest is correct though.

No, I don't think they're elite offensive players, but it was the secondary scoring that decided the series, regardless of the narrative you're trying to push. That you have to either act like a child or completely dismiss people that challenge your arguments reeks of insecurity.

You really should take a look at Pittsburgh’s player statistics during the 2009 run. Secondary scoring showed up at the great time, but Malkin and Crosby completely carried the load like no other duos did in this century. We can all cherrypick stats to show how secondary scoring made a team win important games, but it doesn’t change the fact that this secondary scoring has been pretty meh during the rest of the run. I’m not sure if insecurity would be the right word to describe the situation

 

[The Tourist]

I've been watching a lot of Stars, Devils, Avs, and Wings highlights from the mid-late 90's as well as the top 100 players list on YouTube. It's crazy how much clutching, grabbing, hitting, and just the overall obstruction that offensive players in the 90's had to deal with.

You watch games now and if a player even touches the hands of another player with his stick even if it's just for a second they call hooking. The defender can no longer hold up an offensive player without the puck and just everything that goes on around the net is so much different.

I wonder how many more points guys like Forsberg and Modano would have put up if they constantly didn't have players hanging on them or constantly being hooked and slashed when they were stick-handling.

 

[GreatGonzo]

I've been watching a lot of Stars, Devils, Avs, and Wings high lights from the mid-late 90's as well as the top 100 players list on YouTube. It's crazy how much clutching, grabbing, hitting, and just the overall obstruction that offensive players in the 90's had to deal with.

You watch games now and if a player even touches the hands of another player with his stick even if it's just for a second they call hooking. The defender can no longer hold up an offensive player without the puck and just everything that goes on around the net is so much different.

I wonder how many more points guys like Forsberg and Modano would have put up if they constantly didn't have players hanging on them or constantly being hooked and slashed when they were stick-handling.

A lot of people forget that in ‘06, Forsberg was I believe 8th or 9th in scoring, 2nd in assists, and I think 3rd in PPG before missing significant time in late January. He was beating Crosby and was trailing Ovechkin by 1-2 points.

His hockey sense was second to none, but his body just wasn’t holding up, mainly due to his style of play and all the obstruction he had to deal with during those days.

 

[GordieHowsUrBreath]

They both had 28, so let’s say Carolina makes the finals against Detroit. Zetterberg ended the playoffs with 24 points, if we are simply creating narratives out of thin air....let’s say Zetterberg gets an extra 4-5 points, which is entirely possible. I can create an alternative too and just go off of it, proving you wrong.....right?

But they didn’t, Forsberg did. All your should of and could of nonesense doesn’t belong anywhere in this conversation. As much as you would like to convince yourself of this and that, maybe come back down to reality where Forsberg lead the playoffs in scoring twice without even making the finals, where as Crosby only did once(‘08).

Maybe look around, entertain yourself.....it isn’t hard to understand that a lot of posters here are young....I’m guessing like yourself.

YouTube is now evidence of a players rise and demise. People even still call out Gretzky for his time in the 80s based on YouTube games. It’s fine if that’s your only means of historic footage and actual knowledge, but it’s sad....sorry to break it to you.

crosby and malkin led the playoffs in scoring after 3 rounds, nobody surpassed them so they DID lead after 3 rounds just like peter

leading the playoffs in scoring after 3 rounds is a silly way to praise forberg or the dynamic pens duo either way, maybe forsberg should've shown up against detroit in game 7 than he wouldn't have to rely on such an irrelevant stat to boost his lore

why is using youtube sad? you do realize when scouting players in all sports they watch game film and highlights right? you old timers don't like it because it reveals the truth about the past, you would rather look at the past with rose tinted glasses

 

[authentic]

A lot of people forget that in ‘06, Forsberg was I believe 8th or 9th in scoring, 2nd in assists, and I think 3rd in PPG before missing significant time in late January. He was beating Crosby and was trailing Ovechkin by 1-2 points.

His hockey sense was second to none, but his body just wasn’t holding up, mainly due to his style of play and all the obstruction he had to deal with during those days.

He had 39 points in his first 21 games in 2005-06 and was voted the best player in the league by the players at the halfway point.

 

[authentic]

crosby and malkin led the playoffs in scoring after 3 rounds, nobody surpassed them so they DID lead after 3 rounds just like peter

leading the playoffs in scoring after 3 rounds is a silly way to praise forberg or the dynamic pens duo either way, maybe forsberg should've shown up against detroit in game 7 than he wouldn't have to rely on such an irrelevant stat to boost his lore

why is using youtube sad? you do realize when scouting players in all sports they watch game film and highlights right? you old timers don't like it because it reveals the truth about the past, you would rather look at the past with rose tinted glasses

 

[GreatGonzo]

crosby and malkin led the playoffs in scoring after 3 rounds, nobody surpassed them so they DID lead after 3 rounds just like peter

leading the playoffs in scoring after 3 rounds is a silly way to praise forberg or the dynamic pens duo either way, maybe forsberg should've shown up against detroit in game 7 than he wouldn't have to rely on such an irrelevant stat to boost his lore

why is using youtube sad? you do realize when scouting players in all sports they watch game film and highlights right? you old timers don't like it because it reveals the truth about the past, you would rather look at the past with rose tinted glasses

Forsberg lead the playoffs twice without competing in the final round.....why is that so unclear to you? Is that really THAT hard to understand and process? I understand they both did, my point is they still made the finals and then Malkin ultimately ended up first overall. Whether or not they would have IF they never made the finals is something that doesn’t matter....why? Because it didn’t happen. But you enjoy making arguments out of things that didn’t happen.

Forsberg lead his team in scoring that series, and against a juggernaut of a team....while Crosby and Malkin had Carolina.....once again you providing more evidence that you have no clue what your talking about. It’s actually pretty outstanding that he did and it’s rarely happened. It just further shows how dominant of a playoff performer he truly was.

Your right, YouTube is totally a great resource for hockey history. Some of us actually watched and followed careers, while you sat by 10-20 years later watching YouTube clips. Basically the same thing....

 

[KoozNetsOff 92]

Forsberg lead the playoffs twice without competing in the final round.....why is that so unclear to you? Is that really THAT hard to understand and process? I understand they both did, my point is they still made the finals and then Malkin ultimately ended up first overall. Whether or not they would have IF they never made the finals is something that doesn’t matter....why? Because it didn’t happen. But you enjoy making arguments out of things that didn’t happen.

Forsberg lead his team in scoring that series, and against a juggernaut of a team....while Crosby and Malkin had Carolina.....once again you providing more evidence that you have no clue what your talking about. It’s actually pretty outstanding that he did and it’s rarely happened. It just further shows how dominant of a playoff performer he truly was.

Your right, YouTube is totally a great resource for hockey history. Some of us actually watched and followed careers, while you sat by 10-20 years later watching YouTube clips. Basically the same thing....

I can't speak for anyone else, but just because we (I'm assuming you are because you're talking like it) were old enough to watch/understand in the 90s doesn't mean much. It's not like we watched every game of every player. I mean it's not like anyone here "follows" every current great player either. I'd be willing to bet that the majority of us watch our fav team, maybe a few "big" games league wide and then rely on highlights for every other player/team. And back then it was 10x harder to "follow careers". I mean there was no internet influence like today, no access to gamecenter or whatever. It was basically highlights on TV, going live or reading the paper which really isn't any different from watching highlights on YouTube, it's actually worse because if you missed it in the moment you missed it. So I don't understand this thinking.

 

[bathdog]

You really should take a look at Pittsburgh’s player statistics during the 2009 run. Secondary scoring showed up at the great time, but Malkin and Crosby completely carried the load like no other duos did in this century. We can all cherrypick stats to show how secondary scoring made a team win important games, but it doesn’t change the fact that this secondary scoring has been pretty meh during the rest of the run. I’m not sure if insecurity would be the right word to describe the situation

Are you able to enlighten us by what metrics?

Pens 2009
Crosby was in on 39% of goals.
Malkin was in on 46% of goals.
Either one was in on 69% of goals.
They played all teams games.

Avs 2002
Sakic was in on 35% of goals.
Forsberg was in on 50% of goals.
Either one was in on 69% of goals.
Forsberg missed 1 team game.

leading the playoffs in scoring after 3 rounds is a silly way to praise forberg or the dynamic pens duo either way, maybe forsberg should've shown up against detroit in game 7 than he wouldn't have to rely on such an irrelevant stat to boost his lore

Another way to look at it could be since the 95-lockout GWG in the playoffs:
1st. Sakic 19
4th. Forsberg 14
13th Malking 12
30th Crosby 9

Considering Forsberg is the only of the lot to even have a game-winner in game 7's I'd say he stacks up OK, individually.

 

[Nadal On Clay]

Are you able to enlighten us by what metrics?

Pens 2009
Crosby was in on 39% of goals.
Malkin was in on 46% of goals.
Either one was in on 69% of goals.
They played all teams games.

Avs 2002
Sakic was in on 35% of goals.
Forsberg was in on 50% of goals.
Either one was in on 69% of goals.
Forsberg missed 1 team game.



Another way to look at it could be since the 95-lockout GWG in the playoffs:
1st. Sakic 19
4th. Forsberg 14
13th Malking 12
30th Crosby 9

Considering Forsberg is the only of the lot to even have a game-winner in game 7's I'd say he stacks up OK, individually.

Only difference is that Pittsburgh won the cup while the Avs didn’t even play in the finals. If you remove Pittsburgh last 3 games to put both teams at 21 GP, Crosby-Malkin are at 73% while Forsberg-Sakic are at 69% with Forsberg missing one game.

Pittsburgh (24 games)
Malkin 36 pts
Crosby 31 pts
Guerin 15 pts
Fedotenko 14 pts
Gonchar 14 pts (22 games)

Colorado (21 games)
Forsberg 27 pts (20 games)
Sakic 19 pts
De Vries 13 pts
Tanguay 13 pts (19 games)
Reinprecht 12 pts

Pittsburgh complementatey scoring barely got more pts than Colorado’s despite playing 3 more games and playing in a higher scoring era.

 

[bathdog]

Only difference is that Pittsburgh won the cup while the Avs didn’t even play in the finals. If you remove Pittsburgh last 3 games to put both teams at 21 GP, Crosby-Malkin are at 73% while Forsberg-Sakic are at 69% with Forsberg missing one game.

Pittsburgh (24 games)
Malkin 36 pts
Crosby 31 pts
Guerin 15 pts
Fedotenko 14 pts
Gonchar 14 pts (22 games)

Colorado (21 games)
Forsberg 27 pts (20 games)
Sakic 19 pts
De Vries 13 pts
Tanguay 13 pts (19 games)
Reinprecht 12 pts

Pittsburgh complementatey scoring barely got more pts than Colorado’s despite playing 3 more games and playing in a higher scoring era.

Haha, and you accuse me of cherry picking. "Like no other duo did in this century" - nonsense as per usual. The difference is, Pens secondary scoring came through, Avs didn't. That's it. It has nothing to do with Malkin or Crosby. Pens "complementary scoring" literally scored as much as Colorado's on a relative basis which is obvious by taking the total amount 100% - 69%.

You could look at Avs 2001 too when they actually won the cup, Forsberg and Sakic combined for 54% of the scoring with Sakic missing 2 games, and Forsberg missing 12! games. You can keep coming up with random noise but that doesn't make the statements more true.

 

[Nadal On Clay]

Haha, and you accuse me of cherry picking. "Like no other duo did in this century" - nonsense as per usual. The difference is, Pens secondary scoring came through, Avs didn't. That's it. It has nothing to do with Malkin or Crosby. Pens "complementary scoring" literally scored as much as Colorado's on a relative basis which is obvious by taking the total amount 100% - 69%.

You could look at Avs 2001 too when they actually won the cup, Forsberg and Sakic combined for 54% of the scoring with Sakic missing 2 games, and Forsberg missing 12! games. You can keep coming up with random noise but that doesn't make the statements more true.

Did you already forgot that Crosby-Malkin scored 21 more pts and 11 more goals than Sakic-Forsberg in their respective runs?

 

[bathdog]

Did you already forgot that Crosby-Malkin scored 21 more pts and 11 more goals than Sakic-Forsberg in their respective runs?

Since we're back to not applying context again: and Sakic 1996, 2001 RS, Forsberg 1996 RS, scored more points than Malkin ever did.

 

[Nadal On Clay]

Haha, and you accuse me of cherry picking. "Like no other duo did in this century" - nonsense as per usual. The difference is, Pens secondary scoring came through, Avs didn't. That's it. It has nothing to do with Malkin or Crosby. Pens "complementary scoring" literally scored as much as Colorado's on a relative basis which is obvious by taking the total amount 100% - 69%.

You could look at Avs 2001 too when they actually won the cup, Forsberg and Sakic combined for 54% of the scoring with Sakic missing 2 games, and Forsberg missing 12! games. You can keep coming up with random noise but that doesn't make the statements more true.

Im pretty sure 54% is lower than 69% isn’t it?

 

[Nadal On Clay]

Since we're back to not applying context again: and Sakic 1996, 2001 RS, Forsberg 1996 RS, scored more points than Malkin ever did.

What about 2007 Crosby?

You can’t just dig your way to a conclusion only by using fancy stats.

 

[bathdog]

Im pretty sure 54% is lower than 69% isn’t it?

Hehe, pretty sure you missed they missed 30% of the games. The point was just to further illustrate you're stating things that aren't reality. Forsberg/Sakic stood for equally large portion of their teams scoring in 2002, and clearly paced to stand for a larger amount in 2001. Even if they didn't, the hyperbolic statement of yours was rediculous. I'm sorry you struggle with the fact that not everyone share your opinion.

What about 2007 Crosby?

You can’t just dig your way to a conclusion only by using fancy stats.

True. He wasn't part of the thread originally. So you would get behind Sakic = Crosby > Forsberg > Malkin? It was your logic after all, not mine.