Part 4: True North Sports & Entertainment's efforts to acquire an NHL team (Winnipeg)

[Hamilton Tigers]

look up pittsburg's attendence in the early 80's(before Lemieux)and that's in a 10-15 yr old building.

The Igloo opened in 1961.

 

[vivianmb]

The Igloo opened in 1961.

my bad i thought 1968.

 

[roccerfeller]

Off-topic but a small correction...

Toronto has 2.7 million people, making it the biggest city on the Great Lakes and the 4th largest in North America (1. Mexico City 2. NYC 3. LA).

Even Toronto's western suburb, Mississauga, has a population of 700,000 making it one of the biggest suburbs in North America and the 4th largest city on the Great Lakes (1. Toronto 2. Chicago 3. Detroit).

So I would argue that Southern Ontario meets that definition fine. If you look at a city like Dallas, which has a similar metropolitan population to Toronto, the city itself only has 1.1 million people. I think the reason you see more sprawl in Southern Ontario then in other Canadian cities is just the fact that Toronto is much bigger then most cities in Canada.

I think you just affirmed my point

 

[htpwn]

I think you just affirmed my point

Ah, I suppose it is up to opinion then.

Was that what you were alluding to it or did the meaning behind your post go over my head?

 

[TheMoreYouKnow]

I can see why people expect fans to come in for games from ~2-2.5 hours away in an area like Manitoba where people are used to big distances.

But you'd also think that as a result, the pressure to be good is considerably increased. It would seem logical that the further away you live the more quickly you'd be inclined to say it's not worth the trip.

 

[roccerfeller]

Ah, I suppose it is up to opinion then.

Was that what you were alluding to it or did the meaning behind your post go over my head?

yeah, exactly what you explained was what I was also trying to explain

There is nothing like Southern Ontario (or the Greater Toronto area) in Canada, other than perhaps greater Vancouver, whereas they are abundant in the US

 

[y2kcanucks]

Off-topic but a small correction...

Toronto has 2.7 million people, making it the biggest city on the Great Lakes and the 4th largest in North America (1. Mexico City 2. NYC 3. LA).

Even Toronto's western suburb, Mississauga, has a population of 700,000 making it one of the biggest suburbs in North America and the 4th largest city on the Great Lakes (1. Toronto 2. Chicago 3. Detroit).

So I would argue that Southern Ontario meets that definition fine. If you look at a city like Dallas, which has a similar metropolitan population to Toronto, the city itself only has 1.1 million people. I think the reason you see more sprawl in Southern Ontario then in other Canadian cities is just the fact that Toronto is much bigger then most cities in Canada.

I'm left wondering then about the possibilities of a team in Hamilton AND Mississauga or Kitchener-Waterloo?

 

[roccerfeller]

I can see why people expect fans to come in for games from ~2-2.5 hours away in an area like Manitoba where people are used to big distances.

But you'd also think that as a result, the pressure to be good is considerably increased. It would seem logical that the further away you live the more quickly you'd be inclined to say it's not worth the trip.

exactly, and these people who make up the "2.2 million" around Winnipeg (which is an accurate number) are more "fair weather" than anything else. Outside of a few games here and there, the dedicated fans will be all within the Winnipeg CMA, which is over 750k. By the end of this year, Winnipeg will be back in the 7th largest city spot if it has not already over taken Quebec City already.

Here are some of the more (relatively) recent population statistics from the most recent census update (relevant up until July 1st 2010) (source: StatsCan)

Population on July 1 Change
2008 2009 2010 08 - 10
========= ========= ========= =======
Québec,Que 738,300 745,600 754,400 16,100
Ottawa-Gatineau,Ont/Que 1,200,400 1,218,500 1,239,100 38,700
Hamilton,Ont 729,200 734,600 740,200 11,000
Winnipeg,Man 732,200 742,400 753,600 21,400
Regina,Sask 205,800 210,400 215,100 9,300
Saskatoon,Sask 251,000 258,000 265,300 14,300
Calgary,Alta 1,187,300 1,220,400 1,242,600 55,300
Edmonton,Alta 1,127,600 1,156,500 1,176,300 48,700

Top 5 fastest growing cities during this time span, under a million people are:

1) Winnipeg
2) Quebec City
3) Saskatoon
4) Hamilton
5) Halifax (with Victora & Regina very close)

**Note Southern Ontario as a whole grows a ton because of Toronto. Toronto has insane growth currently, so Hamilton's relative lack of population growth is irrelevant imo regarding CMAs.

However, Winnipeg is not slowing down, nor will it be anytime soon. Its only gonna grow faster, and will be a matter of a few years before it doubles its population growth effectively putting it near current Edmonton growth levels.

I think these are populations that are more relevant to regarding discussion of Winnipeg's drawing crowd.

Potential TV markets or merchandise crowd, is another story. Then populations such as Saskatchewan, Western Ontario, North Dakota and parts of Minnesota come into play. To this day, cities such as Fargo still have Jets loyalty.

 

[TheMoreYouKnow]

However, Winnipeg is not slowing down, nor will it be anytime soon. Its only gonna grow faster, and will be a matter of a few years before it doubles its population growth effectively putting it near current Edmonton growth levels.

I think these are populations that are more relevant to regarding discussion of Winnipeg's drawing crowd.

At the risk of being un-P.C., how much of that population growth is from Filipinos and Asians though? Are those groups into the NHL? I don't know the specifics of the Winnipeg situation obviously, but in the U.S. non-white groups in general have so far pretty much ignored hockey.

 

[Steve Passless*]

The Leafs have a Punjabi broadcasting team. Canadians of all colors seem to take to hockey.

 

[TheHMan]

At the risk of being un-P.C., how much of that population growth is from Filipinos and Asians though? Are those groups into the NHL? I don't know the specifics of the Winnipeg situation obviously, but in the U.S. non-white groups in general have so far pretty much ignored hockey.

Generally it's something that's embraced by immigrants if they actually have aspirations of understanding and living Canadian culture. Hockey is on a whole other social level in Canada, it's like a religion here, and we print it on our money. If anyone truly wants to know what it means to be Canadian, than avoiding Hockey is pretty much impossible. There's just no comparisons to be made in that regard.

Many of the people I know who immigrated here actually know quite a bit about the game. We watch games, go to games, and I've gone skating with them quite a few times, but I still think they need a little more work with that.

 

[Jet]

Generally it's something that's embraced by immigrants if they actually have aspirations of understanding and living Canadian culture. Hockey is on a whole other social level in Canada, it's like a religion here, and we print it on our money. If anyone truly wants to know what it means to be Canadian, than avoiding Hockey is pretty much impossible. There's just no comparisons to be made in that regard.

Many of the people I know who immigrated here actually know quite a bit about the game. We watch games, go to games, and I've gone skating with them quite a few times, but I still think they need a little more work with that.

Putting this delicately and without stereotyping as much as possible, there are certain cultural groups who immigrate to Canada and work at assimilating with Canadian culture, and there are those who traditionally tend to stick with their homeland culture.

From my experience, I've seen that people of Filipino decent are much more likely to try to melt into the Canadian culture, while retaining theirs.

 

[Lux Aurumque*]

So, I don't know how much this has been discussed, but what happens to the Moose once either PHO or ATL are moved to Winnipeg? I'd have to guess that the Canucks will want a farm team closer to home. Perhaps Victoria? Other options could be Saskatoon/Regina or Red Deer. Maybe even Seattle.

 

[roccerfeller]

At the risk of being un-P.C., how much of that population growth is from Filipinos and Asians though? Are those groups into the NHL? I don't know the specifics of the Winnipeg situation obviously, but in the U.S. non-white groups in general have so far pretty much ignored hockey.

In Canada its another story. Here, being "Canadian" is being whatever culture you are. I'll tell you as a minority first hand, and most of my friends are coloured, across the entire country (I have good friends in every major city from Vancouver to Montreal). All my black, brown, bage, etc non-white friends enjoy hockey. Those that live in cities with NHL teams and love sports especially follow hockey. There is a tendency to follow NBA as well, but generally the Canadian sports are embraced.

The Leafs have a Punjabi broadcasting team. Canadians of all colors seem to take to hockey.

Canucks do to, as I understand. They might also be broadcast in Mandarin?

Generally it's something that's embraced by immigrants if they actually have aspirations of understanding and living Canadian culture. Hockey is on a whole other social level in Canada, it's like a religion here, and we print it on our money. If anyone truly wants to know what it means to be Canadian, than avoiding Hockey is pretty much impossible. There's just no comparisons to be made in that regard.

Many of the people I know who immigrated here actually know quite a bit about the game. We watch games, go to games, and I've gone skating with them quite a few times, but I still think they need a little more work with that.

Definitely those who were raised here tend to be more prone to following hockey. Some follow it crazy, other do not. it part of the Canadian psyche - being Canadian isn't being some lumberjack maple syrup drinker with a toque and snow white skin...its being whatever culture you are and fusing it with what it means to be Canadian. At least, when I got my citizenship here recently that is the impression I was given. I've never had anyone question my own love for Canadian sports (NHL, CFL) growing up here either. Its just sorta assumed if you like sports, you know a bit about the local teams.

Putting this delicately and without stereotyping as much as possible, there are certain cultural groups who immigrate to Canada and work at assimilating with Canadian culture, and there are those who traditionally tend to stick with their homeland culture.

From my experience, I've seen that people of Filipino decent are much more likely to try to melt into the Canadian culture, while retaining theirs.

In my experience, even those who are more "traditional" can still be the most "Canadian"

I don't want to get into an OT debate here, but as 90% of my filipino buddies put it, they don't really have much of their own traditional culture left to begin with. Modern day fresh Filipino immigrants are heavily influenced by urban American culture and East Asian culture to begin with (primarily Japanese), in addition to having been anglicized in the past.

I think every fresh immigrant faces Canada in a different respect.

But if the ultimate point of the topic brought up in the first place is "does this population growth ADD potential hockey ticket purchasers", my answer is yes.

So, I don't know how much this has been discussed, but what happens to the Moose once either PHO or ATL are moved to Winnipeg? I'd have to guess that the Canucks will want a farm team closer to home. Perhaps Victoria? Other options could be Saskatoon/Regina or Red Deer. Maybe even Seattle.

Victoria seems to be the one in play. Its a few pages back where links were posted. Try the search tool, there are some interesting statements.

 

[danishh]

In Canada its another story. Here, being "Canadian" is being whatever culture you are. I'll tell you as a minority first hand, and most of my friends are coloured, across the entire country (I have good friends in every major city from Vancouver to Montreal). All my black, brown, bage, etc non-white friends enjoy hockey. Those that live in cities with NHL teams and love sports especially follow hockey. There is a tendency to follow NBA as well, but generally the Canadian sports are embraced.



Canucks do to, as I understand. They might also be broadcast in Mandarin?



Definitely those who were raised here tend to be more prone to following hockey. Some follow it crazy, other do not. it part of the Canadian psyche - being Canadian isn't being some lumberjack maple syrup drinker with a toque and snow white skin...its being whatever culture you are and fusing it with what it means to be Canadian. At least, when I got my citizenship here recently that is the impression I was given. I've never had anyone question my own love for Canadian sports (NHL, CFL) growing up here either. Its just sorta assumed if you like sports, you know a bit about the local teams.



In my experience, even those who are more "traditional" can still be the most "Canadian"

I don't want to get into an OT debate here, but as 90% of my filipino buddies put it, they don't really have much of their own traditional culture left to begin with. Modern day fresh Filipino immigrants are heavily influenced by urban American culture and East Asian culture to begin with (primarily Japanese), in addition to having been anglicized in the past.

I think every fresh immigrant faces Canada in a different respect.

But if the ultimate point of the topic brought up in the first place is "does this population growth ADD potential hockey ticket purchasers", my answer is yes.



Victoria seems to be the one in play. Its a few pages back where links were posted. Try the search tool, there are some interesting statements.

ditto on everything.


i'll add that as a first generation canadian, i've seen first hand how many immigrants didnt turn to cricket or soccer, but rather embraced hockey.

when i started playing organized hockey, I was the only visible minority. I challenge you to go to your local rink and find that now, at least in the 10-12 major cities.

 

[peter sullivan]

The country of origin for new Manitoba immigrants are philippino, German, Chinese and Russian. In that order.

 

[LadyJet26]

The country of origin for new Manitoba immigrants are philippino, German, Chinese and Russian. In that order.

Filipino, Russian, former Yugoslavia, East Indian where I live in Wpg

 

[Puckschmuck*]

The country of origin for new Manitoba immigrants are philippino, German, Chinese and Russian. In that order.

Pretty sure East Indians are now among the top three sources of immigrants in Manitoba.

 

[roccerfeller]

ditto on everything.


i'll add that as a first generation canadian, i've seen first hand how many immigrants didnt turn to cricket or soccer, but rather embraced hockey.

when i started playing organized hockey, I was the only visible minority. I challenge you to go to your local rink and find that now, at least in the 10-12 major cities.

Agreed fully.

 

[Araxen*]

So, I don't know how much this has been discussed, but what happens to the Moose once either PHO or ATL are moved to Winnipeg? I'd have to guess that the Canucks will want a farm team closer to home. Perhaps Victoria? Other options could be Saskatoon/Regina or Red Deer. Maybe even Seattle.

I feel Seattle, Portland, and Milwaukee are untapped markets for the NHL. If they could ever move a team to one of those cities I think the teams would do very very well there. With that said I think Canada needs more teams first and then US teams second.

 

[ps241]

Pretty sure East Indians are now among the top three sources of immigrants in Manitoba.

my niebours on both sides are East indian and one of them is a heck of a hockey player...both his daughters play and he coaches their team

i have allot of Filipino friends and co-workers and most of them are hockey fans.

even if 1st generation canadians don't embrace hockey 2nd generation usually do from my experience.....with the long cold winters and extreme exposure culturally (TV, community programs, local rinks, backyard rinks)....really its just impossible to avoid.....not everyone is a hockey fan but it seems most ethnic groups are very well represented when it comes to our national past time

 

[CHRDANHUTCH]

I feel Seattle, Portland, and Milwaukee are untapped markets for the NHL. If they could ever move a team to one of those cities I think the teams would do very very well there. With that said I think Canada needs more teams first and then US teams second.

Seattle and Portland are major junior markets, Araxen, but after an Arena issue which forced one pro team out of Seattle, the business climate and the State is a hurdle there as well as Portland....

Milwaukee has the Admirals (Nashville's affiliate) which are cross-promoted w/ the Brewers since the Pettit legacy passed there...

 

[Roughneck]

Milwaukee has the Admirals (Nashville's affiliate) which are cross-promoted w/ the Brewers since the Pettit legacy passed there...

I'd be fine with trying to "upgrade" Milwaukee. Wisconsin is a hockey state and there'd be a couple natural rivalries right off the bat with Chicago and Minnesota but that proximity with Chicago would probably cause significant roadblocks.

 

[Jeffrey Lebowski]

I'd be fine with trying to "upgrade" Milwaukee. Wisconsin is a hockey state and there'd be a couple natural rivalries right off the bat with Chicago and Minnesota but that proximity with Chicago would probably cause significant roadblocks.

Not necessarily. While Milwaukee would be the closest city to Chicago by proximity, I know very few people who live too far north of the Illinois/Wisconsin border (in say 20 miles away from the border) who follow hockey to begin with. Milwaukee would be a great place to explore and expand but I think Madison would be better considering the following that the Badgers have. Either way, the hockey fans I know who follow and go to Hawks games live within 45 minutes to an hour away from Chicago (which is pretty much from Chicago to the border of Illinois/Wisconsin). I've lived in both Chicago and northern suburbs and have played hockey in both areas. I know many people who aren't proclaimed Hawks fans but rather like the Avs, Detroit, NJ, Leafs etc. because of their history. Put a hockey team in Milwaukee or Madison and I really think they could get a fan base rallying behind them without worrying about existing Chicago fans.

 

[dobiezeke*]

Not necessarily. While Milwaukee would be the closest city to Chicago by proximity, I know very few people who live too far north of the Illinois/Wisconsin border (in say 20 miles away from the border) who follow hockey to begin with. Milwaukee would be a great place to explore and expand but I think Madison would be better considering the following that the Badgers have. Either way, the hockey fans I know who follow and go to Hawks games live within 45 minutes to an hour away from Chicago (which is pretty much from Chicago to the border of Illinois/Wisconsin). I've lived in both Chicago and northern suburbs and have played hockey in both areas. I know many people who aren't proclaimed Hawks fans but rather like the Avs, Detroit, NJ, Leafs etc. because of their history. Put a hockey team in Milwaukee or Madison and I really think they could get a fan base rallying behind them without worrying about existing Chicago fans.

Who is the owner of this alleged team?