Part 4: True North Sports & Entertainment's efforts to acquire an NHL team (Winnipeg)

[mikelvl]

Nope, entirely serious question.

...though I do want to see how much you try to dress up "He didn't do things the way I wanted him to do them" and "Things beyond his control screwed stuff up" as "He can't be trusted".

You sound a little like Bettman yourself, playing with words and all.....

Perhaps I should have said, I'm still not convinced the team ends up in Winnipeg next year so long as Bettman is still fighting tooth and nail to make sure that doesn't happen.

 

[Big McLargehuge]

every team has ups & downs in attendance, but the Pens issue was a new building, not fans in the seats. Phoenix has never made money in its entire existance in the desert.

Also, unlike Phoenix, Pittsburgh began its sellout streak (over 200 games & counting) during the darkest hour. The market has always been here, it just required a new building....to compare Phoenix as a market to Pittsburgh is laughable...

Indeed. Pittsburgh only had one truly bad attendance year, and they were still in the top 3 in local American television ratings that year. The one truly awful attendance year (2003-04) was still higher than what the Coyotes have this year and within 100 seats of what the Coyotes had last year...and we had the same moving thing flying over the head keeping people out, but also had other issues...such as the team cut it's budget in half in the months before the season because of orders from bankruptcy court (we were spending less than half of what the Coyotes are today), the team was far and away the worst in the league all season long (unlike the Coyotes, who can't attract fans even when winning), and were playing in the worst arena in the league on the worst lease in the league (and no parking or concession income either, thanks Howard Baldwin).

The Penguins situation was very unique. There has only been one season in the past decade where the Coyotes outdrew the Penguins and our television ratings have never been lower than 3rd in the U.S. since those numbers started to be tracked in the mid-90s. These aren't comparable situations, the entire Penguins issue was arena-based. It is more comparable to Minnesota than anything, except our owner wasn't dead set on moving the team and using the arena issue as an excuse to move the team, the Penguins literally couldn't make money in the Igloo. Even with full control of the Igloo we couldn't turn a profit in that arena when selling out every game and going to the Finals two years in a row. The Coyotes have their new arena, and its a damn nice one.

The similarities end with the former owner ditching the team into bankruptcy court.

 

[Buck Aki Berg]

Perhaps I should have said, I'm still not convinced the team ends up in Winnipeg next year so long as Bettman is still fighting tooth and nail to make sure that doesn't happen.

I think "tooth and nail" is an exaggeration ... people fighting "tooth and nail" don't admit that time is running out, and don't admit that things like lawsuits will kill the deal (now who's playing with words?)

Why shouldn't he be fighting to keep the franchises where they are? They didn't just throw thirty darts at a map and hope for the best; they want them there for a reason.

 

[mikelvl]

I think "tooth and nail" is an exaggeration ... people fighting "tooth and nail" don't admit that time is running out, and don't admit that things like lawsuits will kill the deal (now who's playing with words?)

Why shouldn't he be fighting to keep the franchises where they are? They didn't just throw thirty darts at a map and hope for the best; they want them there for a reason.

I don't think that 'tooth and nail' is an exaggeration at all. Bettman is doing everything he can to keep the team in Phoenix, don't you agree? You can still admit that the odds are against you and fight tooth and nail. And who said he shouldn't be fighting for it, regardless of my preference/belief/wish that Winnipeg return to the NHL? I don't really understand what got you all worked up on this one. Overreaction.

 

[roccerfeller]

Man, if this comes to pass, what I would give to be at that first game...

Hey, my friends from Hamilton always make it out to Bomber games

If I said you'd be allowed to bring your Cobb hat, would that make it more enticing

 

[Lux Aurumque*]

Man, if this comes to pass, what I would give to be at that first game...

When this happens, I will personally make the 16 hour drive to Winnipeg to buy tickets, and again for the first game.

 

[Puckschmuck*]

When this happens, I will personally make the 16 hour drive to Winnipeg to buy tickets, and again for the first game.

It's actually a 12 hour drive (drive back to Winnipeg every year) However, it is a 16 hour train ride on VIA Rail from Edmonton to Winnipeg

 

[OneSharpMarble]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Ns14hRqwY8

I wonder how he is going to like Winnipegs weather.

 

[XX]

I wonder how he is going to like Winnipegs weather.

Bryz is a UFA and wouldn't resign.

 

[peter sullivan]

he's got one more year i believe......i agree though.....a big reason i'm secretly hoping its atlanta that we get...without bryzgalov the coyotes would struggle.

maybe winning a cup next year will convince him that winters aren't so bad.

 

[peter sullivan]

ah, thanks....well that settles it.....c'mon COG!

 

[peter sullivan]

i think that blank box ( at least its blank for me) is a video of bryzgalov questioning why anyone would move to edmonton and endure their winters if they didnt have to.

 

[Hamilton Tigers]

To say this drawn out drama is downright emotional is an understatement when you read this:

Thanks again for nothing, Mr. Bettman

http://www.thespec.com/sports/article/497536--thanks-again-for-nothing-mr-bettman

Ouch!

 

[Crazy_Ike]

The bitterness in that article is off the scale.

The misjudgement of why Hamilton kept losing all those things is also off the scale.

Mr. Radley, no one hates you or your city. The people who have tried to bring hockey to Hamilton have made mistake after mistake after mistake in doing so. Trying to play it off as some kind of personal vendetta against you doesn't and hasn't held up to scrutiny. Instead of trying to rile people up with hateful invective, perhaps you should try to analyze what actually went wrong so the next time an opportunity comes, you don't miss it.

For example, when the league asks for an expansion deposit, don't decide not to pay it. When the league tells you it wants an NHL capable arena, don't tell them that Copps is good enough as is. When there's teams potentially for sale, don't try to steal them behind the league's back. And when someone tells you that you should try to misuse the bankruptcy courts to invalidate the league's constitution and get in the back door, just consider the idea that that might not be the best way of going about things.

Just some suggestions.

Being bitter because Winnipeg is closer than Hamilton ever was is nowhere on that list.

 

[finchster]

Bryz is a UFA and wouldn't resign.

Resign from what? He has no reason to quit hockey all together

re-sign

 

[Hamilton Tigers]

Wondering why Hulsizer would tell the AZRepublic that his purchase price has been bumped up to $210m.

Could it be that the Winnipeg move is a done deal, and the NHL is trying to cover all of its Phoenix costs by trying to bump up TNSE's purchase price?

I wonder what would happen if TNSE didn't want to pay that amount? What then?

 

[peter sullivan]

the people of hamilton cant really blame bettman....it was balsille himself who played with their emotions....the NHL never once said it was looking at a team in hamilton....it was only JB who tried a hostile takeover and move the team there....the winnipeg situation is very different.....TNSE are playing by the rules and bettman has at the very least gone on record as saying that winnipeg is an option....he never did that for hamilton.

if balsille wanted to buy the coyotes and move it to winnipeg or quebec, he would have had more success.....it was the fact that he wanted a piece of the leaf's pie that killed his deal.

i dont disagree with the article's contention that bettman would rather have 12 teams in new york than 1 in manitoba....but the reality is that it cant happen....a team might come to winnipeg not because bettman wants it to...it will be because he has no other option....which is why it has to happen this year....the only option door will close eventually.

 

[MAROONSRoad]

Bob Irving, senior sports broadcaster at CJOB radio in Winnipeg, was interviewed on a Vancouver radio station today and had some interesting comments re TNSE and the NHL.

-- TNSE's own studies indicate an NHL team would have estimated revenues of $80MM per year in Winnipeg;
-- MTS Centre has a long waiting list for luxury suites currently for AHL hockey (all suites are sold out);
-- current suite holders were surveyed on whether they'd sign new leases at NHL prices and the response was overwhelmingly positive;
-- suite revenues for an NHL tenant at MTS Centre are estimated at up to around $7MM per season (about $150,000 per suite);
-- MTS Centre, owned 100% by TNSE, is a very profitable enterprise currently from non-sporting events and revenue from that side of the operation will provide a buffer in case of any short falls from time-to-time on the hockey side of operations;
-- has heard from very good sources that the NHL is running out of patience with the Coyotes situation;
-- the team will "no doubt" be relocated to Winnipeg if there is in fact a relocation;
-- if the Coyotes stay in Phoenix, Thrashers are a possibility for next season;
-- TNSE has submitted a ton of info and documents to the NHL and the NHL has already concluded their due diligence on TNSE as an ownership group and Winnipeg as a market;
-- however, any relocation to Winnipeg would still need to go through the formal approval process and vote from the BOG.

GHOST

 

[RR]

[mod delete -- this is not the trade forum]

Wondering why Hulsizer would tell the AZRepublic that his purchase price has been bumped up to $210m.

Could it be that the Winnipeg move is a done deal, and the NHL is trying to cover all of its Phoenix costs by trying to bump up TNSE's purchase price?

I wonder what would happen if TNSE didn't want to pay that amount? What then?

Team goes to the highest bidder...except Hamilton. Sorry.

[mod delete]

the people of hamilton cant really blame bettman....it was balsille himself who played with their emotions....the NHL never once said it was looking at a team in hamilton....it was only JB who tried a hostile takeover and move the team there....the winnipeg situation is very different.....TNSE are playing by the rules and bettman has at the very least gone on record as saying that winnipeg is an option....he never did that for hamilton.

if balsille wanted to buy the coyotes and move it to winnipeg or quebec, he would have had more success.....it was the fact that he wanted a piece of the leaf's pie that killed his deal.

Completely agree. I think in essence you nailed it! IF the NHL desires Hamilton as a new location in SO, it will identify other potential owners before making its move.

No question, in my mind, that when word leaked out that Winnipeg was Bettman's first choice for the Coyotes if a local deal could not be closed, TNSE proceeded in a responsible manner to tell the league it was interested, and here are the reasons why.

Bob Irving, senior sports broadcaster at CJOB radio in Winnipeg, was interviewed on a Vancouver radio station today and had some interesting comments re TNSE and the NHL.

-- TNSE's own studies indicate an NHL team would have estimated revenues of $80MM per year in Winnipeg;
-- MTS Centre has a long waiting list for luxury suites currently for AHL hockey (all suites are sold out);
-- current suite holders were surveyed on whether they'd sign new leases at NHL prices and the response was overwhelmingly positive;
-- suite revenues for an NHL tenant at MTS Centre are estimated at up to around $7MM per season (about $150,000 per suite);
-- MTS Centre, owned 100% by TNSE, is a very profitable enterprise currently from non-sporting events and revenue from that side of the operation will provide a buffer in case of any short falls from time-to-time on the hockey side of operations;
-- has heard from very good sources that the NHL is running out of patience with the Coyotes situation;
-- the team will "no doubt" be relocated to Winnipeg if there is in fact a relocation;
-- if the Coyotes stay in Phoenix, Thrashers are a possibility for next season;
-- TNSE has submitted a ton of info and documents to the NHL and the NHL has already concluded their due diligence on TNSE as an ownership group and Winnipeg as a market;
-- however, any relocation to Winnipeg would still need to go through the formal approval process and vote from the BOG.

GHOST

I don't doubt you Ghost, but do you have a link? I only ask because I have been going nuts today (OK, maybe not just today) thinking I read elsewhere this afternoon (around 5 pm EST Monday) that the projection for WPG revs was ~$70M. Either I imagined it or, perhaps, it did not include other hockey-related revenues the team would get from the league (i.e. rev sharing).

I swear I read that. That WPG revs would be the lowest among the teams in Canada, but because of ownership owning the Arena and non-hockey events being delivered to the bottom line, it made sense for TNSE to make this investment now, rather than waiting for an expansion team because that would certainly carry with it a hefty relo fee.

 

[MAROONSRoad]

I don't doubt you Ghost, but do you have a link? I only ask because I have been going nuts today (OK, maybe not just today) thinking I read elsewhere this afternoon (around 5 pm EST Monday) that the projection for WPG revs was ~$70M. Either I imagined it or, perhaps, it did not include other hockey-related revenues the team would get from the league (i.e. rev sharing).

I swear I read that. That WPG revs would be the lowest among the teams in Canada, but because of ownership owning the Arena and non-hockey events being delivered to the bottom line, it made sense for TNSE to make this investment now, rather than waiting for an expansion team because that would certainly carry with it a hefty relo fee.

I heard that on the radio this evening. I believe it was on CKNW Sports Talk with Dan Russel. Those highlights are based on my recollection (without rewind ability), but I am positive about the $80MM figure. You are right that $70MM was mentioned in some articles posted today, but that was the supposed NHL's estimates, not TNSE's.

GHOST

 

[RR]

[mod delete]

I truly believe that TNSE will build a first class organization and will be able to find 20 skilled hockey players (poor souls though they may be) each year to make millions of dollars playing in front of the most passionate and knowledgeable fan base anywhere in the NHL -- bar none.

No question regarding TNSE building a winner. That is the goal of all franchises. My point was simply that many vets from a playoff-caliber team desiring to move on likely will result in a rebuild mode. And nothing wrong that. I believe that is how you build an organization for success over the long-term. Moving on (I don't see much disagreement so far).

It may surprise some people, but I followed the Jets since I was a child and it was rare that players had a problem playing in Winnipeg. Maybe the players have changed in the past 15 years. We shall see (I hope).

In interesting also that some former Jets and ex-NHL players currently live in the city of Winnipeg. Thomas Steen refused to move to Phoenix -- -- when the Jets left and retired. The Swedish born player still lives in Winnipeg. That's just one prominent example. Mike Keane moved back to Winnipeg after his long NHL career. Johnathan Toews has a condo in Winnipeg where he spends his off season. Carey Wilson runs a hockey school in Winnipeg. Former Winnipeg Jets goalie Joe Daley operates a sports memorabilia shop in Winnipeg. Hall of Famer Dale Hawerchuk still maintains a summer home in Gimli, Manitoba a beach resort a short drive from Winnipeg. Ex-Jets like Scott Arniel and Randy Carlyle moved back to Winnipeg after completing their NHL careers to work with the Manitoba Moose for years. Arniel, the current coach of the Blue Jackets, has a home in Winnipeg. His wife and daughters decided to stay in Winnipeg instead of move to Columbus because his eldest daughter wanted to remain in her current school. I hope you get the picture: the weather may suck for 3 months or so, but not every person or NHL player hates the city of Winnipeg.

......

No need to get defensive, Ghost. I am not taking issue with any current/former players who have or do reside in Winnipeg. Never been there. Not fair for me to judge. I'm only passing on what I've been told regarding the current situation IF the Coyotes move to Winnipeg. Hell, as I've said before, if the Yotes move there we might be neighbors! Moving on.

[mod delete]

I heard that on the radio this evening. I believe it was on CKNW Sports Talk with Dan Russel. Those highlights are based on my recollection (without rewind ability), but I am positive about the $80MM figure. You are right that $70MM was mentioned in some articles posted today, but that was the supposed NHL's estimates, not TNSE's.

GHOST

At least I now know I didn't imagine that. Thanks for that.

 

[TheMoreYouKnow]

Winnipeg would have the same problems Edmonton has but I don't think that would necessarily be a huge issue if the team is well-run. Only a few big market teams really try to build through free agency, as long as your draft picks and traded for guys report you can do well.

IMO the key question would be corporate support.

 

[King Woodballs]

IMO the key question would be corporate support.

I too have had this question, but my thinking is that if the TNSE gents have been looking at getting a NHL for a few years now... I am sure they have done their homework in this department.

These two arent in this to lose money, and I figure that if they thought they would lose money on this venture... they would never enter into it

In Chips we trust

 

[Gump Hasek]

What's up downtown?

CentreVenture unveils plan for sports and entertainment district

http://www.winnipegfreepress.com/breakingnews/whats-up-downtown-117569803.html

 

[AllByDesign]

Bob Irving, senior sports broadcaster at CJOB radio in Winnipeg, was interviewed on a Vancouver radio station today and had some interesting comments re TNSE and the NHL.

-- TNSE's own studies indicate an NHL team would have estimated revenues of $80MM per year in Winnipeg;
-- MTS Centre has a long waiting list for luxury suites currently for AHL hockey (all suites are sold out);
-- current suite holders were surveyed on whether they'd sign new leases at NHL prices and the response was overwhelmingly positive;
-- suite revenues for an NHL tenant at MTS Centre are estimated at up to around $7MM per season (about $150,000 per suite);
-- MTS Centre, owned 100% by TNSE, is a very profitable enterprise currently from non-sporting events and revenue from that side of the operation will provide a buffer in case of any short falls from time-to-time on the hockey side of operations;
-- has heard from very good sources that the NHL is running out of patience with the Coyotes situation;
-- the team will "no doubt" be relocated to Winnipeg if there is in fact a relocation;
-- if the Coyotes stay in Phoenix, Thrashers are a possibility for next season;
-- TNSE has submitted a ton of info and documents to the NHL and the NHL has already concluded their due diligence on TNSE as an ownership group and Winnipeg as a market;
-- however, any relocation to Winnipeg would still need to go through the formal approval process and vote from the BOG.

GHOST

Finally something from the reputable Bob Irving. The man is a rock of integrity, and the only sports reporter in the city that has an actual dialogue with people in the business.

Wondering why Hulsizer would tell the AZRepublic that his purchase price has been bumped up to $210m.

Could it be that the Winnipeg move is a done deal, and the NHL is trying to cover all of its Phoenix costs by trying to bump up TNSE's purchase price?

I wonder what would happen if TNSE didn't want to pay that amount? What then?

I don't believe TNSE would pay that amount. I also don't believe that is the "new" selling price. It does not taje the $25 million currently in escrow earmarked for losses.