Out of Town Thread: Pre-Pre-Season Edition

[Sterling Archer]

It's a good post. I just want to add that it's always about a negotiation which both sides want to "win". It's also a basic tenet that the obvious stars get paid. Trying to deviate from that is bad faith, IMO.

There's no reason to alienate your best players, as often as not it'll come back to bite you.

The poison apple here is arbitration. There's a reason why players avoid it like the plague. It's hours upon hours of management telling the arbitrator how terrible you are and unworthy of the contract you're asking for. I know an NHL arbitrator and he told me they're brutal and players have been in tears.

The biggest problem was that it went that far. Obviously there are two strong personalities and they didn't budge. Can't blame either as it's on both equally and it's seen multiple times every year with every team. It's just business for both sides.

 

[groovejuice]

Sorry. Bergevin wasn't budging from a $5.5M (if I recall correctly) salary. That's an embarrassing and insulting offer for a Norris winner, who was already forced into a below market contract previously.

 

[Bryson]

Nor did I say it was 100% sure he wouldn’t. I said I don’t see it and it’s not worth expecting.

My point about Toronto was they’re on the rise, we’re not. You assumed earlier I meant he wants attention, I meant he wants to be on big stage as a competitor. Toronto will be closer to that big stage than us.

As for the projecting comment. No...someone said that of me. That I’m putting myself in his shoes by saying he will have more games with Nashville, we’re not competitive and he wants to win. But everyone else speaks about his “emotional connection” which is subjective. The fact he will have more games played with Nashville is not. The fact he reached finals with them and not us is not subjective. The reality is Habs did not do well recently either nor have their stars been able to stay healthy of late. These are all factors, measurable factors beyond “emotional connection” yet I’m the one putting myself in his shoes? Holy ****...that’s rich.

The only subjective thing I said is Toronto and I just meant they’re more likely than us given their rise more so than them being destination. I say he stays in Nashville like some others have said.

Montréal is just not an attractive destination right now and barring some top pick that changes the team I think Habs aren’t on the rise either. We can argue about that if you like but something tells me we agree there.

Tavares wouldn’t even listen to us. Speaking of which apparently of subban was in mtl he could’ve swayed his BB4L to sign with us. Yet Tavares has no pull later? Goes both ways although I think that factor is minimal. Success drives interest, Habs aren’t successful right now.

You know what everything you just said actually makes sense and would have been better received if you had wrote that in the first place instead of using a strawman argument and purposefully misconstruing what I said.

I said that PK had a chance of coming back to Montreal if they were competitive, not very likely otherwise. Chances are he will stay in Nashville though and Poile is a great GM unless Poile flips him for something better. In hindsight I wonder why he didn't trade Weber for Johansen and keep Seth Jones instead. Is it because Weber couldn't fetch a good center or because he felt that Subban was that much better than Jones? Jones would have been under better cap management control for longer. Interesting.

As for Toronto? Sure why not. But I still don't think it would be a primary destination. For starters, I think most teams can absorb the salary of 2-3 star players. Toronto is already going to be dealing with Cap Crunch soon enough... Matthews, Nylander, Marner, Kadri, Tavares... and they still haven't even shored up their defense yet. I don't think they could fit PK under the Cap.

 

[LyricalLyricist]

Sorry. Bergevin wasn't budging from a $5.5M (if I recall correctly) salary. That's an embarrassing and insulting offer for a Norris winner, who was already forced into a below market contract previously.

5.5 for one year arbitration.

Teams always put low offers and teams high.

Not to mention when a guy is RFA after the 1 year deal awarded by arbitrator if you say have him on a 1 year 8 million dollar deal and he regressed but still plays well...you need to offer him 8 mil to retain his rights which is poison.

Arbitration is a huge risk for both parties. It's not cut and dry.

 

[LyricalLyricist]

You know what everything you just said actually makes sense and would have been better received if you had wrote that in the first place instead of using a strawman argument and purposefully misconstruing what I said.

I said that PK had a chance of coming back to Montreal if they were competitive, not very likely otherwise. Chances are he will stay in Nashville though and Poile is a great GM unless Poile flips him for something better. In hindsight I wonder why he didn't trade Weber for Johansen and keep Seth Jones instead. Is it because Weber couldn't fetch a good center or because he felt that Subban was that much better than Jones? Jones would have been under better cap management control for longer. Interesting.

As for Toronto? Sure why not. But I still don't think it would be a primary destination. For starters, I think most teams can absorb the salary of 2-3 star players. Toronto is already going to be dealing with Cap Crunch soon enough... Matthews, Nylander, Marner, Kadri, Tavares... and they still haven't even shored up their defense yet. I don't think they could fit PK under the Cap.

You kind of went intense on the Subban has a connection and he's loyal. Posted a picture of him crying and all. I actually never originally quoted you, you quoted me. Your quotes to me were very loyalty focused. Reading back, I pretty much implied he will likely stay in Nashville which you agreed to but continued with the long lost love story. Stuff about thanking his coach from when he was 11 and stuff.

End of the day we agree Subban is very unlikely to come here but I don't think loyalty means much here. You put an emphasis on it but this isn't some grinder, this is a star player who is very competitive. He may go off the board entirely for all we know but I think what will matter the most is how the team is doing more so than loyalty. You can have good memories with something but not want to bring up back up from the grave.

The reason he traded Jones over Johansen is because of age. Why would CLB trade Johansen for a guy much older? Jones for Johansen was fair. They're only 3 years apart. Weber is 7 years older than Johansen though and was already getting paid full salary, Jones is cost effective and younger.

I think Toronto will end up trading Kadri at some point. I don't see how Tavares, Matthews, Nylander and Marner alone is not top heavy enough. 4 guys making what, 30+ million total? They'll need young guys to fill in or complimentary types.

I think they'd struggle to fit PK too. Then again they have some young talented D-men coming up, maybe they'll have some young guys on cost effective deals.

 

[Mrb1p]

PK will go where he gets paid the most. Period. He's not into home town discounts and so I don't know where this weird sense of loyalty etc is coming from. It's a business. Players want to get paid and if his comments on player salaries says anything and his contract demands in Montreal, it's that he wants max dollar. Seeing as he has no family, kids, community toes or roots that a family would have, I don't see why he'd choose Nashville over any other team that he could make more money. He also doesn't have a NTC/NMC so the next few years aren't up to him on where he goes anyways.

By the way, this isn't an insult or an indictment on him in case any PK super fans get their backs up. It's perfectly acceptable for a player to want to maximize his worth just like it's a teams' to try and keep pays down to a minimum. Every player is different as are their circumstances. PK I'm sure would be fine playing in LA, NY, DAL, FLA, LV etc...

Report this man111one!!!

 

[groovejuice]

5.5 for one year arbitration.

Teams always put low offers and teams high.

Not to mention when a guy is RFA after the 1 year deal awarded by arbitrator if you say have him on a 1 year 8 million dollar deal and he regressed but still plays well...you need to offer him 8 mil to retain his rights which is poison.

Arbitration is a huge risk for both parties. It's not cut and dry.

If I'm not mistaken, that $5.5M offer was tabled before Subban opted for arbitration. Bergevin wasn't moving on that, so unnecessarily forced the arbitration. When I say MB didn't bargain in good faith, this is what I'm referring to.

How many Norris winners have been forced to arbitration, I wonder?

 

[LyricalLyricist]

If I'm not mistaken, that $5.5M offer was tabled before Subban opted for arbitration. Bergevin wasn't moving on that, so unnecessarily forced the arbitration. When I say MB didn't bargain in good faith, this is what I'm referring to.

How many Norris winners have been forced to arbitration, I wonder?

Well I'm reading Subban asked for 8.5 in arbitration, habs asked for 5.25.

Mark stone who was a PPG was offered 5 mil in arbitration, he asked for 9.

Cody Ceci asked for 6, Sens offered 3.35.

I mean, it's pretty common arbitration numbers are in the extremes. This is pretty common.

I highly doubt Habs offered Subban 5.5 firm on long term deal then moved up to 9 out of nowhere. We can't be that naïve...

As for other Norris caliber D-men in arbitration. Shea Weber, didn't win but often considered one of the best D-men at the time. Poile treated his contract situation horribly which is why Shea signed elsewhere the following year.

 

[groovejuice]

Well I'm reading Subban asked for 8.5 in arbitration, habs asked for 5.25.

Mark stone who was a PPG was offered 5 mil in arbitration, he asked for 9.

Cody Ceci asked for 6, Sens offered 3.35.

I mean, it's pretty common arbitration numbers are in the extremes. This is pretty common.

I highly doubt Habs offered Subban 5.5 firm on long term deal then moved up to 9 out of nowhere. We can't be that naïve...

As for other Norris caliber D-men in arbitration. Shea Weber, didn't win but often considered one of the best D-men at the time. Poile treated his contract situation horribly which is why Shea signed elsewhere the following year.

They didn't move up out of nowhere. They knew the arbitrator would be closer to Subban's number than their's, possibly even on the number. So they would have lost that and Subban could have got arbitration the following year and gone to UFA.

The tactics Bergevin used failed and actually put the Habs in a worse place. Subban might have signed for $8Mx8 with some serious front loading had he negotiated in good faith.

The Habs were at best even at the outset of that trade and are now well behind. Weber might not ever reach his pre-injury level, making it even worse.

 

[Adam Michaels]

 

[LyricalLyricist]

They didn't move up out of nowhere. They knew the arbitrator would be closer to Subban's number than their's, possibly even on the number. So they would have lost that and Subban could have got arbitration the following year and gone to UFA.

The tactics Bergevin used failed and actually put the Habs in a worse place. Subban might have signed for $8Mx8 with some serious front loading had he negotiated in good faith.

The Habs were at best even at the outset of that trade and are now well behind. Weber might not ever reach his pre-injury level, making it even worse.

No offense but I'm shocked you actually believe habs offer was the 5.25 or 5.5 million over a long term deal. That makes no sense. Ottawa said 5 mil for Stone, did they feel stone is worth 5 million? C'mon. This is pretty common...

Also, doing 'some serious front loading' is against the rules now.

I'm not even talking about the trade, how did it come up?:/

Regarding Weber:

The Predators chose to take the Norris Trophy finalist and team captain to arbitration, and the arbitrator heard arguments Tuesday in a hearing in Toronto. The Predators argued that Weber was due $4.75 million, while Weber's agents countered with $8.5 million.

Do you really think the Preds too thought Weber was worth 4.75 and negotiated in bad faith. At a certain point you gotta accept this is pretty standard for arbitration.

 

[Adam Michaels]

 

[groovejuice]

No offense but I'm shocked you actually believe habs offer was the 5.25 or 5.5 million over a long term deal. That makes no sense. Ottawa said 5 mil for Stone, did they feel stone is worth 5 million? C'mon. This is pretty common...

Also, doing 'some serious front loading' is against the rules now.

I'm not even talking about the trade, how did it come up?:/

Regarding Weber:



Do you really think the Preds too thought Weber was worth 4.75 and negotiated in bad faith. At a certain point you gotta accept this is pretty standard for arbitration.

Regarding Bergevin's offer to Subban, it was reported before Subban opted for arbitration that Bergevin was lowballing again at $5.5M. There was an attempt at negotiation but we heard Bergevin was not budging, trying the very same strong arm tactics as in the previous contract.

The $5.5 was not a starting number for the arbitration. It was Bergevin's firm offer that carried over.

You can still front load. It's just done with salary bonuses and the differences between years has a max percentage. Take a peek at Price's contract. He gets close to half his salary in the first 3 years.

The trade was pertinent for me because it clearly demonstrates Bergevin's preference for a very different type of Dman from Subban. It speaks to motive. He simply never respected or believed in the value of Subban's abilities, which was clearly demonstrated by his hardball tactics at every opportunity.

 

[LyricalLyricist]

Regarding Bergevin's offer to Subban, it was reported before Subban opted for arbitration that Bergevin was lowballing again at $5.5M. There was an attempt at negotiation but we heard Bergevin was not budging, trying the very same strong arm tactics as in the previous contract.

The $5.5 was not a starting number for the arbitration. It was Bergevin's firm offer that carried over.

Proof?

Given how I showed you a few examples of how the salary arbitration landscape looks that's how I see the 5.25 or 5.5 working out. I have not seen any evidence habs had 5.5 over a long term deal as an offer. I'm very open to being proven wrong.

You can still front load. It's just done with salary bonuses and the differences between years has a max percentage. Take a peek at Price's contract. He gets close to half his salary in the first 3 years.

I thought you meant something much more excessive when you said 'serious front loading'. Price still gets nearly 8 million in his lowest season, it's not that dramatic.

The trade was pertinent for me because it clearly demonstrates Bergevin's preference for a very different type of Dman from Subban. It speaks to motive. He simply never respected or believed in the value of Subban's abilities, which was clearly demonstrated by his hardball tactics at every opportunity.

Fair enough, I just don't see what it has to do with the arbitration conversation we were on.

Unless you can prove the habs were offering him 5.5 on a long term deal this has little to do with the 5.5 million we discussed.

As far as I know we knew the 5.5 for a 1 year deal which is on par with every other arbitration extreme players and teams go through. Like I said, Nashville offered Shea Weber 4.75 in his prime. It's pretty common practice.

 

[LaP]

Sorry. Bergevin wasn't budging from a $5.5M (if I recall correctly) salary. That's an embarrassing and insulting offer for a Norris winner, who was already forced into a below market contract previously.

It was under 6.5 millions that's for sure.

 

[Adam Michaels]

Devils sign their 1st Round pick in 2018 to an ELC. He went 17th overall.

 

[peate]

D.D. was released from his Russian team but, seems like he got an offer from another. Hang in there Davy boy. I mean over there.

 

[The Great Weal]

Devils sign their 1st Round pick in 2018 to an ELC. He went 17th overall.

Really think it was a steal. Should have gone top 10.

 

[le_sean]

Really think it was a steal. Should have gone top 10.

Yeah, but Bouchard is big!

 

[The Great Weal]

Yeah, but Bouchard is big!

I love reading their board reaction to drafting Bouchard. In a poll of who they would have drafted, they mostly chose Bouchard.

 

[le_sean]

I love reading their board reaction to drafting Bouchard. In a poll of who they would have drafted, they mostly chose Bouchard.

To be fair, the Oilers haven’t had a good defenceman since Pronger left a decade ago. They forget what it’s like to be good at both ends of the ice.

 

[Adam Michaels]

 

[Adam Michaels]

 

[Non Player Canadiens]

i love those classic NJ colors, but why am i getting an Avalanche vibe from this one? am i colorblind???

 

[mariolemieux66]

Gorgeous!