Out of Town Thread: Pre-Pre-Season Edition

[Perrah]

Bold: That's ironic. Everyone is so certain he's returning...but that's not putting themselves in his shoes?

Please. Let's be real. Did Iginla retire a flame? Lecavalier? Is Seguin going to go back to Boston now that Chiarelli is gone?

The only guy I recall coming back(I'm sure there's more) is Ryan Smyth but Alberta was his actual home to begin with.

Subban lives elsewhere than Montreal, he will have played with Nasvhille more and gone further with them. He has more reason to stay there than come back.

It seems everyone is projecting what they want to happen onto what Subban will do.

He is unlikely to. It's always possible but don't count on it.

We didn't even start the rebuild yet. Sucking unintentionally and keeping big contracts isn't a rebuild.

Didnt Iginla retire as a flame just this summer?

Edit: I jumped in without reading everything, perhaps you had meant physically played for the Flames after.

 

[CauZuki]

Didnt Iginla retire as a flame just this summer?

Symbolically , he didn't actually play you know...hockey.

 

[ArtPeur]

Didnt Iginla retire as a flame just this summer?

Did he play at all in Calgary lately?

No.

 

[Bryson]

Bold: That's ironic. Everyone is so certain he's returning...but that's not putting themselves in his shoes?

Please. Let's be real. Did Iginla retire a flame? Lecavalier? Is Seguin going to go back to Boston now that Chiarelli is gone?

The only guy I recall coming back(I'm sure there's more) is Ryan Smyth but Alberta was his actual home to begin with.

Subban lives elsewhere than Montreal, he will have played with Nasvhille more and gone further with them. He has more reason to stay there than come back.

It seems everyone is projecting what they want to happen onto what Subban will do.

He is unlikely to. It's always possible but don't count on it.

We didn't even start the rebuild yet. Sucking unintentionally and keeping big contracts isn't a rebuild.

Not one single person said that PK was returning to the Candiens with certainty. Not ONE. In fact after the way he was treated here the chances of him actually returning are minimal.

It's ironic that you claim others are projecting that Subban might one day return to MTL, the team he was drafted by and grew up idolizing along with his dad, a team that he LOVED openly and still does to this day... yet it was YOU who pulled Toronto out of your ass as a likely destination for PK to retire... a team that he has even less of a connection with than either NSH or MTL.

To use your own words against you, PK doesn't live in Toronto... he lives elsewhere and has for many years. He also has 2 ECF appearance with MTL. He has more reason to come to MTL than Toronto.

You win the disingenuous post of the day award! But the day is still young... congrats!

 

[Mrb1p]

Not one single person said that PK was returning to the Candiens with certainty. Not ONE. In fact after the way he was treated here the chances of him actually returning are minimal.

It's ironic that you claim others are projecting that Subban might one day return to MTL, the team he was drafted by and grew up idolizing along with his dad, a team that he LOVED openly and still does to this day... yet it was YOU who pulled Toronto out of your ass as a likely destination for PK to retire... a team that he has even less of a connection with than either NSH or MTL.

To use your own words against you, PK doesn't live in Toronto... he lives elsewhere and has for many years. He also has 2 ECF appearance with MTL. He has more reason to come to MTL than Toronto.

You win the disingenuous post of the day award! But the day is still young... congrats!

The only reason any NHL player has is money or the cup, youre not talking about a chile here, nobody cares about the team they cheered for in their younger years. He can be attacher to the city and the people, this is true, but it can be true of where he grew up too or where his family lives.

 

[Sterling Archer]

PK will go where he gets paid the most. Period. He's not into home town discounts and so I don't know where this weird sense of loyalty etc is coming from. It's a business. Players want to get paid and if his comments on player salaries says anything and his contract demands in Montreal, it's that he wants max dollar. Seeing as he has no family, kids, community toes or roots that a family would have, I don't see why he'd choose Nashville over any other team that he could make more money. He also doesn't have a NTC/NMC so the next few years aren't up to him on where he goes anyways.

By the way, this isn't an insult or an indictment on him in case any PK super fans get their backs up. It's perfectly acceptable for a player to want to maximize his worth just like it's a teams' to try and keep pays down to a minimum. Every player is different as are their circumstances. PK I'm sure would be fine playing in LA, NY, DAL, FLA, LV etc...

 

[Bryson]

The only reason any NHL player has is money or the cup, youre not talking about a chile here, nobody cares about the team they cheered for in their younger years. He can be attacher to the city and the people, this is true, but it can be true of where he grew up too or where his family lives.

I do think that money and chance of winning a cup trumps all but Tavares proved that he was willing to take less money for his childhood team. There is a difference between cheering and idolizing. Something that successful people have in common is that they have the ability to visualize their future ... which team's jersey do you think that PK was wearing in his dreams? Our subconscious shapes who we are as individuals He grew up idolizing Jean Beliveau, not Dave Keon. Sure it sounds like hocus pocus but it's not trivial.

PK has a lifetime multi million dollar commitment to the Montreal Childrens Hospital. You don't think that moving to MTL would help ease him with that endeavor? As for his family. PK's family will be his wife/girlfriend and however many kids they have. How many adult friends do you have that still live with their parents let along WANT to go back to their parents if they have millions of dollars at their disposal? I mean I love seeing my family for the holidays, I would hate it if I had to see them everyday. Also Subban's brothers are also no longer in Toronto and with today's technology people are never very far away.

 

[LyricalLyricist]

Not one single person said that PK was returning to the Candiens with certainty. Not ONE. In fact after the way he was treated here the chances of him actually returning are minimal.

It's ironic that you claim others are projecting that Subban might one day return to MTL, the team he was drafted by and grew up idolizing along with his dad, a team that he LOVED openly and still does to this day... yet it was YOU who pulled Toronto out of your ass as a likely destination for PK to retire... a team that he has even less of a connection with than either NSH or MTL.

To use your own words against you, PK doesn't live in Toronto... he lives elsewhere and has for many years. He also has 2 ECF appearance with MTL. He has more reason to come to MTL than Toronto.

You win the disingenuous post of the day award! But the day is still young... congrats!

Nor did I say it was 100% sure he wouldn’t. I said I don’t see it and it’s not worth expecting.

My point about Toronto was they’re on the rise, we’re not. You assumed earlier I meant he wants attention, I meant he wants to be on big stage as a competitor. Toronto will be closer to that big stage than us.

As for the projecting comment. No...someone said that of me. That I’m putting myself in his shoes by saying he will have more games with Nashville, we’re not competitive and he wants to win. But everyone else speaks about his “emotional connection” which is subjective. The fact he will have more games played with Nashville is not. The fact he reached finals with them and not us is not subjective. The reality is Habs did not do well recently either nor have their stars been able to stay healthy of late. These are all factors, measurable factors beyond “emotional connection” yet I’m the one putting myself in his shoes? Holy f***...that’s rich.

The only subjective thing I said is Toronto and I just meant they’re more likely than us given their rise more so than them being destination. I say he stays in Nashville like some others have said.

Montréal is just not an attractive destination right now and barring some top pick that changes the team I think Habs aren’t on the rise either. We can argue about that if you like but something tells me we agree there.

Tavares wouldn’t even listen to us. Speaking of which apparently of subban was in mtl he could’ve swayed his BB4L to sign with us. Yet Tavares has no pull later? Goes both ways although I think that factor is minimal. Success drives interest, Habs aren’t successful right now.

 

[DAChampion]

Nor did I say it was 100% sure he wouldn’t. I said I don’t see it and it’s not worth expecting.

My point about Toronto was they’re on the rise, we’re not. You assumed earlier I meant he wants attention, I meant he wants to be on big stage as a competitor. Toronto will be closer to that big stage than us.

As for the projecting comment. No...someone said that of me. That I’m putting myself in his shoes by saying he will have more games with Nashville, we’re not competitive and he wants to win. But everyone else speaks about his “emotional connection” which is subjective. The fact he will have more games played with Nashville is not. The fact he reached finals with them and not us is not subjective. The reality is Habs did not do well recently either nor have their stars been able to stay healthy of late. These are all factors, measurable factors beyond “emotional connection” yet I’m the one putting myself in his shoes? Holy ****...that’s rich.

The only subjective thing I said is Toronto and I just meant they’re more likely than us given their rise more so than them being destination. I say he stays in Nashville like some others have said.

Montréal is just not an attractive destination right now and barring some top pick that changes the team I think Habs aren’t on the rise either. We can argue about that if you like but something tells me we agree there.

Tavares wouldn’t even listen to us. Speaking of which apparently of subban was in mtl he could’ve swayed his BB4L to sign with us. Yet Tavares has no pull later? Goes both ways although I think that factor is minimal. Success drives interest, Habs aren’t successful right now.

Why don't you just apologize for posting a fabrication?

 

[Laurentide]

While I think Poile is happy with Subban and I know from an entire office of Predator fans in Nashville that most fans are happy with PK, I also know nothing is absolute. PK may not come back to Montreal but I also would not be quick to assume he’ll finish his contract in Nashville.

I can pretty much guarantee that he won't finish his career in Nashville but that doesn't mean he's coming back to Montreal, which I also guarantee isn't going to happen unless the mindset that has prevailed in the management of this organization for the past 60 years suddenly changes. Only the fans miss him. Management is happy to be rid of him and they won't be inviting him back. The Habs will retire #6 for Weber before they'll offer Subban another contract.

 

[HABitual Fan]

If there was new Management in MTL, it would be ironic if Nashville had to trade Subban for Weber in order to escape the Cap recapture penalties if Weber we're to retire in the next couple of years by LTIR him on their roster.

 

[Brainiac]

If there was new Management in MTL, it would be ironic if Nashville had to trade Subban for Weber in order to escape the Cap recapture penalties if Weber we're to retire in the next couple of years by LTIR him on their roster.

Don't know if you're serious, but it's just not happening.

The NHL will find a way to give Nashville a break on that recapture stuff. They did it for New Jersey, they'll do it for Nashville.

For Subban to come back here as a UFA, a few conditions need to be met:

-New management
-Competitive team (Subban will be in his 30s)
-Subban actually wanting to come back

 

[Bryson]

If there was new Management in MTL, it would be ironic if Nashville had to trade Subban for Weber in order to escape the Cap recapture penalties if Weber we're to retire in the next couple of years by LTIR him on their roster.

NJD did not get punished for the Kovulchuck contract and neither will Nashville. It was probably put in place as a deterrent and will be worked out in the next CBA. It would be stupid of the league to punish a team for a contract they signed off on and agreed was legal at the time of the signing.

 

[Laurentide]

For Subban to come back here as a UFA, a few conditions need to be met:

-New management
-Competitive team (Subban will be in his 30s)
-Subban actually wanting to come back

New, as in "a different name on the door of the GM's office" new, won't get it done. It will require a complete 180 degree turn in how this franchise thinks about managing itself. Replacing Bergevin with another ti-gars who values the same stupid intangibles that Bergevin does and harbors the same prejudices and preferences he has isn't going to move the needle for a Subban return. All we'll have then is a GM looking for the next Shea Weber.

 

[Grate n Colorful Oz]

Nor did I say it was 100% sure he wouldn’t. I said I don’t see it and it’s not worth expecting.

My point about Toronto was they’re on the rise, we’re not. You assumed earlier I meant he wants attention, I meant he wants to be on big stage as a competitor. Toronto will be closer to that big stage than us.

As for the projecting comment. No...someone said that of me. That I’m putting myself in his shoes by saying he will have more games with Nashville, we’re not competitive and he wants to win. But everyone else speaks about his “emotional connection” which is subjective. The fact he will have more games played with Nashville is not. The fact he reached finals with them and not us is not subjective. The reality is Habs did not do well recently either nor have their stars been able to stay healthy of late. These are all factors, measurable factors beyond “emotional connection” yet I’m the one putting myself in his shoes? Holy ****...that’s rich.

The only subjective thing I said is Toronto and I just meant they’re more likely than us given their rise more so than them being destination. I say he stays in Nashville like some others have said.

Montréal is just not an attractive destination right now and barring some top pick that changes the team I think Habs aren’t on the rise either. We can argue about that if you like but something tells me we agree there.

Tavares wouldn’t even listen to us. Speaking of which apparently of subban was in mtl he could’ve swayed his BB4L to sign with us. Yet Tavares has no pull later? Goes both ways although I think that factor is minimal. Success drives interest, Habs aren’t successful right now.

You keep repeating the bolded part, but it's not a fact. Subban played 6 seasons in Montreal, and once his contract is up, he'll have played 6 seasons in Nashville. He might play 20-30 more playoff games (which is not even sure yet) at the end tally... but on an overall number of 500 games on each team, 20-30 games is insignificant, yet you make it sound as though he'll have played so many more games.

Talk about subjectivity, that slant is a perfect example.

Listen, you can believe what you want. People respond and use the "everyday-man" ego projection, or even the "every-player logic", as if everyone is the same. You did it, and I've read several others do it too.

You also twisted what I said. You paint it as just an emotional connection, completely disregarding that what I did is not subjectivity, but apply what is known of Subban, instead of using my own ego or the average player to represent his personality.

What's his personality? Passionate, charismatic, goal-driven, attention-seeking, loyal.


In the end what I said is that considering this, especially his passion and is drive towards achieving his goals, going to Montreal is not unlikely. It's much more likely than Toronto even though he grew-up there.

Anyway. I don't really care. He'll 100% go to either Toronto or stay in Nashville. Happy?

 

[LyricalLyricist]

Why don't you just apologize for posting a fabrication?

Because I said: "Everyone is so certain he's returning"

You take things really literally when you want to don't you?

It's pretty clear what I meant. Subban is unlikely to return. Like you, I feel he will stay in Nashville.

This "but the city, the emotional connection, the kids, the drive for 25" or whatever new thing people want to use is all subjective.

Habs aren't a good team and we traded him. Subban has critiqued the trade, saying it was a 'personality trade'. Add in Price and Weber aren't healthy of late, Max may be gone and we still won't be competitive for a few years, I don't see it.

Don't let the fact I said 'so certain' distract you from the main argument. Subban owes nothing to Montreal and Montreal has little to offer him in 4 years. Love subban but it's about being realistic. If he doesn't win a cup with Nasvhille(which I don't think he will as it's very hard to) I don't see him going back into drama to be a bottom feeder.

I could be wrong of course...but I think Subban is a winner. I'm sure we all agree on that. I'm not sure he wants an early summer.

 

[LyricalLyricist]

You keep repeating the bolded part, but it's not a fact. Subban played 6 seasons in Montreal, and once his contract is up, he'll have played 6 seasons in Nashville. He might play 20-30 more playoff games (which is not even sure yet) at the end tally... but on an overall number of 500 games on each team, 20-30 games is insignificant, yet you make it sound as though he'll have played so many more games.

Talk about subjectivity, that slant is a perfect example.

Good thing I said GAMES PLAYED, not SEASONS PLAYED. PK subban is on pace to eclipse both regular season and playoff games he played with us in Nashville. GAMES. I keep repeating it apparently but you switched it. You bring it up like it's all the same, more playoff games means a lot.

Now, the total won't be dramatically different but the success will. If Nashville shows consistent playoff success the memories and legacy will eclipse montreal's by far. We finished low several times during Subban's time here(not his fault) and he will be a true contender several times in Nashville.

Subban wasn't too happy about the trade, I think we have to remember things have been positive for him in Nashville. If he stays, I would imagine(I could be wrong in case someone thinks I'm putting myself in his shoes) there's some value to a positive, successful career environment.

Listen, you can believe what you want. People respond and use the "everyday-man" ego projection, or even the "every-player logic", as if everyone is the same. You did it, and I've read several others do it too.

You also twisted what I said. You paint it as just an emotional connection, completely disregarding that what I did is not subjectivity, but apply what is known of Subban, instead of using my own ego or the average player to represent his personality.

What's his personality? Passionate, charismatic, goal-driven, attention-seeking, loyal.

You said it, loyal. He will have more games(barring injury) and more success in Nashville playoff wise than here. Why not be loyal there?

As for his emotions, they play a factor but you make him sound as if he can only like one thing. I think Subban likes Nashville and has developed a connection there too, no? Habs are special to him, sure. As is Nashville. I'm sure other memories he holds dear. Doesn't mean Habs are only one or we're on top of the pack. I'm sure he has good memories about Toronto area. Friends, family, etc...

In the end what I said is that considering this, especially his passion and is drive towards achieving his goals, going to Montreal is not unlikely. It's much more likely than Toronto even though he grew-up there.

Anyway. I don't really care. He'll 100% go to either Toronto or stay in Nashville. Happy?

What is his goal? I imagine you mean winning right?

Then...why Montreal?

Look I love Montreal, the city, the team and all that. I've even been labeled a defender, an apologist, etc...

But let's be real, habs are not good right now. Maybe they can surprise and compete for a playoff spot if a miracle happens but lets be honest with ourselves. We haven't even admitted to a rebuild yet and when we do Price, Weber, etc... will be older and out of their prime. Guys like Kot will not be in theirs either.

I'm skeptical the habs can provide a true argument that they are an attractive place to play for any credible star free agent in 4 years time. This is based on fact we still haven't started a rebuild, our top star can't stay healthy two years in a row. We have many holes as well. I'm being realistic. I don't think Subban or any similar caliber player is eyeing Montreal for at least 5 years. It's not a slight on Subban at all, it's just not full of optimism in habs land right now.

 

[groovejuice]

PK will go where he gets paid the most. Period. He's not into home town discounts and so I don't know where this weird sense of loyalty etc is coming from. It's a business. Players want to get paid and if his comments on player salaries says anything and his contract demands in Montreal, it's that he wants max dollar. Seeing as he has no family, kids, community toes or roots that a family would have, I don't see why he'd choose Nashville over any other team that he could make more money. He also doesn't have a NTC/NMC so the next few years aren't up to him on where he goes anyways.

By the way, this isn't an insult or an indictment on him in case any PK super fans get their backs up. It's perfectly acceptable for a player to want to maximize his worth just like it's a teams' to try and keep pays down to a minimum. Every player is different as are their circumstances. PK I'm sure would be fine playing in LA, NY, DAL, FLA, LV etc...

PK would play his heart out for whatever team acquired him.

As far as hometown discounts go, we don't really know that, as Bergevin hardballed him twice, even after a Norris win. This is not a usual procedure with top players in the NHL. I think it's important to consider this when suggesting that Subban is just all about the money. You reap what you sow sometimes, right?

 

[LyricalLyricist]

If there was new Management in MTL, it would be ironic if Nashville had to trade Subban for Weber in order to escape the Cap recapture penalties if Weber we're to retire in the next couple of years by LTIR him on their roster.

If Weber wants to retire via LTIR he can do it with any team, Nashville doesn't need to do it.

 

[LyricalLyricist]

Don't know if you're serious, but it's just not happening.

The NHL will find a way to give Nashville a break on that recapture stuff. They did it for New Jersey, they'll do it for Nashville.

For Subban to come back here as a UFA, a few conditions need to be met:

-New management
-Competitive team (Subban will be in his 30s)
-Subban actually wanting to come back

Didn't NJ get penalized regardless though?

I mean this is what happened:

I think they dropped from 11th to 30th in 2014 draft.
Their recapture penalty is 250k a year...it's not earth shattering.

They didn't get much mileage on the contract. He got 23 million over 3 years(if we assume 2012-13 was full season) as opposed to 20 million. Being over by 3 million over 12 seasons is kind of peanuts.

The Weber situation will be much more significant. Perhaps they'll get a pass but I don't think NJ really got a pass. They dropped in their first for signing him to that deal, only team to get penalized and then the recapture is 250k a year so...I'm not sure NJ even spends to the cap.

 

[groovejuice]

Didn't NJ get penalized regardless though?

I mean this is what happened:

I think they dropped from 11th to 30th in 2014 draft.
Their recapture penalty is 250k a year...it's not earth shattering.

They didn't get much mileage on the contract. He got 23 million over 3 years(if we assume 2012-13 was full season) as opposed to 20 million. Being over by 3 million over 12 seasons is kind of peanuts.

The Weber situation will be much more significant. Perhaps they'll get a pass but I don't think NJ really got a pass. They dropped in their first for signing him to that deal, only team to get penalized and then the recapture is 250k a year so...I'm not sure NJ even spends to the cap.

Originally, Bettman took away the pick altogether. He later capitulated and gave the Devils the 30th.

 

[LyricalLyricist]

Originally, Bettman took away the pick altogether. He later capitulated and gave the Devils the 30th.

Still a big demotion for 250k savings.

We paid more to get less in mason trade no?

 

[groovejuice]

Still a big demotion for 250k savings.

We paid more to get less in mason trade no?

Bettman is a stickler. He's as anal a commissioner as they come.

 

[Sterling Archer]

PK would play his heart out for whatever team acquired him.

As far as hometown discounts go, we don't really know that, as Bergevin hardballed him twice, even after a Norris win. This is not a usual procedure with top players in the NHL. I think it's important to consider this when suggesting that Subban is just all about the money. You reap what you sow sometimes, right?

No one knows what happened so to guess in either direction would be foolish in any case. What we do know is that PK was asking for $8.5M in arb and ended up getting $9M over 8 years with the owner stepping in to give him the contract that GM wasn't willing to. So I think it's pretty clear he wasn't going to give the team a break on salary which is totally fine. Weber didn't and you won't hear anyone say anything negative about that.

P.K. Subban, Canadiens go to arbitration | CBC Sports

Add that to comments he's recently made about hockey players pay vs other sports where he says “If we’re talking about sports let’s talk about money because that’s really what it’s about.” the context is about how players et paid but the root of the argument is the same.

P.K. Subban on why NBA players are more outspoken than NHL stars - Sportsnet.ca

So the point of who he'll play for and when, why or for how much is a little moot. He's a professional athlete who ges paid to play for a limited number of years. He's shown he's not into giving discounts and that money is a main focal point. So to say that a young, good looking, single athlete with no family roots in any community would likely play for the team or destination he finds most desirable is I think fairly accurate. The only way I'd see him returning to Montreal is a sense of nostalgia towards the end of his career or a huge contract offer from a different Canadiens GM after this contract is up, but don't expect much if any discount...

 

[groovejuice]

No one knows what happened so to guess in either direction would be foolish in any case. What we do know is that PK was asking for $8.5M in arb and ended up getting $9M over 8 years with the owner stepping in to give him the contract that GM wasn't willing to. So I think it's pretty clear he wasn't going to give the team a break on salary which is totally fine. Weber didn't and you won't hear anyone say anything negative about that.

P.K. Subban, Canadiens go to arbitration | CBC Sports

Add that to comments he's recently made about hockey players pay vs other sports where he says “If we’re talking about sports let’s talk about money because that’s really what it’s about.” the context is about how players et paid but the root of the argument is the same.

P.K. Subban on why NBA players are more outspoken than NHL stars - Sportsnet.ca

So the point of who he'll play for and when, why or for how much is a little moot. He's a professional athlete who ges paid to play for a limited number of years. He's shown he's not into giving discounts and that money is a main focal point. So to say that a young, good looking, single athlete with no family roots in any community would likely play for the team or destination he finds most desirable is I think fairly accurate. The only way I'd see him returning to Montreal is a sense of nostalgia towards the end of his career or a huge contract offer from a different Canadiens GM after this contract is up, but don't expect much if any discount...

It's a good post. I just want to add that it's always about a negotiation which both sides want to "win". It's also a basic tenet that the obvious stars get paid. Trying to deviate from that is bad faith, IMO.

There's no reason to alienate your best players, as often as not it'll come back to bite you.