Prospect Info: Olli Juolevi, Pt. III | Off to Juo-tica

Status
Not open for further replies.

Motte and Bailey

Registered User
Jun 21, 2017
3,692
1,556
So you actually think that Juolevi was physically underdeveloped in his draft season, playing in the OHL, at 6"2, 180 pounds. That's so ridiculously stupid I don't even know how to respond.

Ya considering Sergachev was over 40 pounds heavier than Olli at the same height playing in the same league. Olli was still a lanky kid in his draft year. I don't even buy that Olli was 180 in his draft year since he didn't participate in the combine measurements. I think probably closer to 170, and for a defenseman that's not big at all, even in Jrs.

So is he ever not gonna be lanky? Sounds like you know exactly what age his lankiness will stop being a problem and he’ll magically be not too lanky to play against NHLers. So what’s the age? 22? 25? 35?

Guess we'll find out in the upcoming seasons now won't we? It's almost like prospects evolve and improve from their draft day. What a concept
 

CanaFan

Registered User
Feb 19, 2010
19,887
5,849
BC
Ya considering Sergachev was over 40 pounds heavier than Olli at the same height playing in the same league. Olli was still a lanky kid in his draft year. I don't even buy that Olli was 180 in his draft year since he didn't participate in the combine measurements. I think probably closer to 170, and for a defenseman that's not big at all, even in Jrs.



Guess we'll find out in the upcoming seasons now won't we?

No, I wanna know when it will stop being a valid excuse. If he doesn’t make the team this year or next I’m sure you’ll still use the “he’s too lanky” excuse all the same. Is there a point at which you’ll ever consider that maybe it’s something else? I mean he’s 198lbs right now, how heavy does he need to get to be “not too lanky”? 220? 240? 300?
 

CanaFan

Registered User
Feb 19, 2010
19,887
5,849
BC
Also not taking part in combine drills doesn’t mean you don’t get measured and weighed. There’s no reason to doubt his listed weight at the draft except for, y’know, finding it inconvenient to your argument.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Hodgy

Hodgy

Registered User
Feb 23, 2012
4,311
4,308
Ya considering Sergachev was over 40 pounds heavier than Olli at the same height playing in the same league. Olli was still a lanky kid in his draft year. I don't even buy that Olli was 180 in his draft year since he didn't participate in the combine measurements. I think probably closer to 170, and for a defenseman that's not big at all, even in Jrs.



Guess we'll find out in the upcoming seasons now won't we? It's almost like prospects evolve and improve from their draft day. What a concept

Sergachev was one player in the OHL. Do you realize how ridiculously stupid it is to suggest that because he was larger than Juolevi when they played in the OHL that Juolevi was under developed compared to all players in the OHL? I guess Todd Bertuzzi was underdeveloped when playing in the NHL with Derek Boogard. Jesus Christ, I can’t believe the lengths you are going here to defend your initially illogical argument. The illogical arguments are literally stacking up.
 

alternate

Win the week!
Jun 9, 2006
8,107
2,966
victoria
I don't think it really is possible in the way you are suggesting it. I don't think the Red Wings drafted Lidstrom thinking he would ever be as good as he was. If they thought this, they would have used their first pick on him. Players like Lidstrom, or Tim Thomas, are very rare and extremely unpredictable. It is far more likely the top players were top players that developed as such. In fact, everything Jim Benning stated regarding Olli Juolevi after drafting him suggested that he was very close to being an NHL player.

If you are drafting within the top five, you dam well better get a player that is not only close to the NHL, but has a very high potential. Just look at Pettersson and Virtanen. One was a pretty poor pick, the other a great pick. But they were both close to the NHL when drafted. Look at Scott Glennie. A terrible pick that wasn't close to the NHL when drafted.

The problem with your theory is that it relies on hindsight to prove that the player farther from making the NHL has higher upside. This is because a player's upside is judged based on his development curve, which depends on his current ability. Therefore, if one player has a very high ability at the time of being drafted, and another player has a lower ability at the time of being draft, it is counterintuitive to suggest the latter player has a higher upside, and in this scenario, the former player obviously is closer to the NHL. Sure, in hindsight, and after years of development, the latter player may turn out to be the better player, but at the time of the draft, it would be impossible to determine that.

Passing up potential upside for NHL readiness is a bad drafting philosophy imo. Projecting is literally what drafting is. Player A could easily be the better draft-eligible player with the smoother developmental arc, but if it's because he matured faster, will that still hold at 25? Not necessarily.
 

ProstheticConscience

Check dein Limit
Apr 30, 2010
18,459
10,107
Canuck Nation
Passing up potential upside for NHL readiness is a bad drafting philosophy imo. Projecting is literally what drafting is. Player A could easily be the better draft-eligible player with the smoother developmental arc, but if it's because he matured faster, will that still hold at 25? Not necessarily.
NHL readiness at a younger age is hugely correlated with future success. The draft picks who are NHL ready right out of the gate usually stay better players as they age.
 
  • Like
Reactions: napa and brokenhole

Melvin

21/12/05
Sep 29, 2017
15,198
28,055
Montreal, QC
NHL readiness at a younger age is hugely correlated with future success. The draft picks who are NHL ready right out of the gate usually stay better players as they age.

That's right.

The fact that he's tracking like.a third round pick means he probably has around the same chances of success as a third round pick. About 15% or so.
 

DL44

Status quo
Sep 26, 2006
17,901
3,822
Location: Location:
NHL readiness at a younger age is hugely correlated with future success. The draft picks who are NHL ready right out of the gate usually stay better players as they age.
Stay better players than those that take a yr or 2 or 3?

I would imagine from the numbers game alone, there are many more draft picks from any draft class that take longer to make it than immediate players.. and are better.

Perusing drafts 5-6-7 yrs ago kinda supports this...
 

Burke's Evil Spirit

Registered User
Oct 29, 2002
21,395
7,386
San Francisco
That's right.

The fact that he's tracking like.a third round pick means he probably has around the same chances of success as a third round pick. About 15% or so.

A bit better than that I would think. A lot of third round picks don't even make the AHL.

I think there's a really good chance, like >50%, Juolevi is an NHLer. I just don't think he'll be anything special.
 

DL44

Status quo
Sep 26, 2006
17,901
3,822
Location: Location:
A bit better than that I would think. A lot of third round picks don't even make the AHL.

I think there's a really good chance, like >50%, Juolevi is an NHLer. I just don't think he'll be anything special.
I do.. he oozes a confidence about him... let him grow a bit in the A (where he’s looking great).. then bring him up for good...
In a yr or two we have a staple..
 

ProstheticConscience

Check dein Limit
Apr 30, 2010
18,459
10,107
Canuck Nation
Stay better players than those that take a yr or 2 or 3?

I would imagine from the numbers game alone, there are many more draft picks from any draft class that take longer to make it than immediate players.. and are better.

Perusing drafts 5-6-7 yrs ago kinda supports this...
Show me some numbers.

*edit* Like I said in the tank thread, go look at last year's top 30, 40, 50 scorers. Tell me how long they took to go from being drafted to playing in the NHL. Most of them it's one or two years at the most before they're playing and making an impact at the NHL level.
 
Last edited:

DL44

Status quo
Sep 26, 2006
17,901
3,822
Location: Location:
Show me some numbers.

*edit* Like I said in the tank thread, go look at last year's top 30, 40, 50 scorers. Tell me how long they took to go from being drafted to playing in the NHL. Most of them it's one or two years at the most before they're playing and making an impact at the NHL level.
I was thinking effective players per draft class.. but I guess that's another way......
 

DL44

Status quo
Sep 26, 2006
17,901
3,822
Location: Location:
Any year you want.
I don't know where to find their debuts...
but 2012 draft for example..
The best players took time prior to arrival... the NHL ready prospects were not among the best of their class - off the top of my head, Galchenyuk, Grigorenko, Yak, Maatta.

2011 - RNH, Landeskog.. probably a couple others v Kucherov, Scheifele, Gaudreau

2010 - they hit - Skinner, Hall, Seguin..


Of course overall average of all players = the earlier they hit, the more likely they are NHLers from a statistical pov...
 
Last edited:

CanaFan

Registered User
Feb 19, 2010
19,887
5,849
BC
I don't know where to find their debuts...
but 2012 draft for example..
The best players took time prior to arrival... the NHL ready prospects were not among the best of their class - off the top of my head, Galchenyuk, Grigorenko, Yak, Maatta.

2011 - RNH, Landeskog.. probably a couple others v Kucherov, Scheifele, Gaudreau

2010 - they hit - Skinner, Hall, Seguin..


Of course overall average of all players = the earlier they hit, the more likely they are NHLers from a statistical pov...

I think for the analysis to be of any value you need to separate players by where they were taken. Gaudreau making the NHL in his D+4 is different than Sven Baertschi making it (full time) in his D+5. Guys drafted late are expected to take longer, if they make it at all, because they had various holes in their game that required time to fix. High picks that take 4-5 years to make the league is often a sign they aren’t progressing well from a much more NHL-ready starting point than the 5th rounder.

It’s certainly more relevant since we are talking about Juolevi vs guys like Sergachev and McAvoy who were all drafted high. It’s not really about whether Juolevi or some 6th rounder will end up being the better NHLer.
 
  • Like
Reactions: geebaan

Melvin

21/12/05
Sep 29, 2017
15,198
28,055
Montreal, QC
I think for the analysis to be of any value you need to separate players by where they were taken. Gaudreau making the NHL in his D+4 is different than Sven Baertschi making it (full time) in his D+5. Guys drafted late are expected to take longer, if they make it at all, because they had various holes in their game that required time to fix. High picks that take 4-5 years to make the league is often a sign they aren’t progressing well from a much more NHL-ready starting point than the 5th rounder.

It’s certainly more relevant since we are talking about Juolevi vs guys like Sergachev and McAvoy who were all drafted high. It’s not really about whether Juolevi or some 6th rounder will end up being the better NHLer.

It's funny how none of these posters have an issue with pounding their chests about Boeser, Pettersson, or even, for f*** sakes, Hughes.

Maybe Cody glass will end up better than Pettersson! He's just taking longer! Like does anyone believe this?
 

Melvin

21/12/05
Sep 29, 2017
15,198
28,055
Montreal, QC
From his 2016 iss scouting report.

Smart two-way defender with size. Fluid skating stride with quickness and speed. Very effective running PP, has a very high panic threshold when being pressured. Not physical, relies on body positioning and a good stick to defend. Very good skater with mobility, good gap control and pivots. He has solid point production this year, which is due to the way he reads the ice so well and finds the open man. Equally as good on defense as he is on offense. Close to being NHL ready. Still needs to get stronger physically as he has a lanky frame. - ISS Hockey

Two and a half years later and were still saying the same things.
 

y2kcanucks

Le Sex God
Aug 3, 2006
71,229
10,319
Surrey, BC
Can we please stop with this "defensemen take longer to develop" bs?

Since Juolevi was drafted, the following defensemen who were drafted the same year or after have made the NHL:

Mikhail Sergachev
Jakob Chychrun
Dennis Cholowski
Samuel Girard
Filip Hronek
Victor Mete
Max Lajoie
Miro Heiskanen
Juuso Valimaki
Henri Jokiharju
Sebastian Aho
Rasmus Dahlin
Evan Bouchard


and when we consider that Juolevi was a 5th overall pick. FIFTH OVERALL PICK. Only 4 players in the entire 2016 draft were taken before him...this is pretty pathetic. He's in his Draft +3 season, still doesn't look like he's close to making the NHL. Not calling him a bust, but he was a bad pick. There were better players available. Benning blundered the 2016 5th overall pick just like he blundered the 6th overall pick in 2014. This is another huge blunder.

Juolevi may still develop into something. At this point I'd say it's unlikely he develops into someone who can carry a 2nd pairing. At best I'm thinking maybe a complementary number 4? Though someone who's more likely suited on the bottom pairing.
 

sting101

Registered User
Feb 8, 2012
15,885
14,744
who cares. within a few drafts.

Sbisa Del Zotto Schenn Bogosian Leddy Kulikov made the show and looked pretty good as teenagers then in a few years Pietrangelo Josi Subban McDonagh Shattenkirk Ellis and Orlov blew by them.
 

DL44

Status quo
Sep 26, 2006
17,901
3,822
Location: Location:
1Zach Bogosian 2009-1081
2Drew Doughty 2008-0981
3Aaron Ekblad 2014-1581
4Michael Del Zotto 2009-1080
5Noah Hanifin 2015-1679
6Mikhail Sergachev 2017-1879
7Olli Maatta 2013-1478
8Zach Werenski 2016-1778
9Seth Jones 2013-1477
10Cam Fowler 2010-1176
11Marc-Edouard Vlasic 2006-0776
12Victor Hedman 2009-1074
13Samuel Girard 2017-1873
14Luke Schenn 2008-0970
15Jakob Chychrun 2016-1768
16Dmitry Kulikov 2009-1068
17Adam Larsson 2011-1265
18Erik Johnson 2007-0861
19Erik Karlsson 2009-1060
20Nikita Zadorov 2014-1560
RkPlayerGSeasonCount
21Justin Faulk 2011-1257
22Morgan Rielly 2013-1456
23Tyler Myers 2009-1053
24Victor Mete 2017-1849
25Jakob Chychrun 2017-1848
26Aaron Ekblad 2015-1648
27Oliver Ekman-Larsson 2010-1148
28Hampus Lindholm 2013-1448
29Zach Bogosian 2008-0947
30Noah Hanifin 2016-1746
31Jonas Brodin 2012-1345
32Ivan Provorov 2016-1744
33Jacob Trouba 2013-1443
34Dougie Hamilton 2012-1342
35Luca Sbisa 2008-0939
36Mirco Mueller 2014-1536
37Nick Leddy 2010-1135
38Rasmus Ristolainen 2013-1434
39Connor Carrick 2013-1433
40Erik Gudbranson 2011-1232
RkPlayerGSeasonCount
41Charlie McAvoy 2017-1832
42Drew Doughty 2009-1031
43Victor Hedman 2010-1130
44Cam Fowler 2011-1226
45Brandon Carlo 2016-1721
46Mathew Dumba 2013-1413
47Luke Schenn 2009-1012
48Luc Bourdon 2006-079
49Alex Pietrangelo 2009-109
50Rasmus Ristolainen 2014-159
51Dmitry Kulikov 2010-118
52Alex Pietrangelo 2008-098
53Luca Sbisa 2009-108
54Kris Letang 2006-077
55Alexander Urbom 2010-117
56Nikita Zadorov 2013-147
57Cody Ceci 2013-145
58Jacob Larsson 2016-174
59Andrej Meszaros 2005-064
60Ryan Murphy 2012-134
[TBODY] [/TBODY]
 

CanaFan

Registered User
Feb 19, 2010
19,887
5,849
BC
who cares. within a few drafts.

Sbisa Del Zotto Schenn Bogosian Leddy Kulikov made the show and looked pretty good as teenagers then in a few years Pietrangelo Josi Subban McDonagh Shattenkirk Ellis and Orlov blew by them.

Wow, that’s comprehensive.
 
  • Like
Reactions: y2kcanucks
Status
Not open for further replies.

Ad

Upcoming events

Ad

Ad