Value of: Nathan Horton

[Liferleafer]

Horton's contract and working around it in the off season is more complicated than most realize. It's not just as simple as saying you can go over by 10% easily with no problems at all. Ask the Blackhawks why they unloaded Hossa's contract.

Interesting article that explains the challenges... LTIR Isn’t Free Cap Space And The Leafs Need To Be Cautious In Using It

I think Dubas looks to move that contract if he can. But asking another teams GM to go to their owner to write off $4m (+/-) in actual money will require an asset worth while. For example, the Habs wrote off $2.73M in the Mason trade but got a NHL proven asset in Armia for doing it. How many teams run healthy profits and have owners that are willing to write off this amount of money? Not many!

Tag room, Bonus Performances, ect. There is a lot to review and project how this will play out. When you factor in that the Leafs need every single dollar in the cap space, it does make sense that they try to move the Horton contract.

If Nylander is traded, It would be smart to try to include Horton in the deal.

Yes, lets devalue Nylander by forcing a team to take Horton...

 

[Calad]

Let's say Salary Cap goes up to 83M, as it should. Let's also say that Matthews, Marner, Nylander all work out lucrative deals(and Kapanen, Jonsson, etc. and some lesser guys get lesser deals).......and Gardiner, Hainsey & Marleau go bye-bye.....Leafs let Gardiner & Hainsey walk, and Marleau is traded for very little, to a team needing to reach the cap floor.

Hyman (2.25K) - Tavares (11M) - Marner (8.5M)
Kapanen (3M) - Matthews (11M) - Nylander (7M)
Johnsson (1.5M) - Kadri (4.5M) - Grundstrom(925K)
Ennis (650K) - Lindholm (1.2M) - Korshkov (925K)
Gauthier (675K)

Rielly (5M) - Ozhiganov (1.5M)
Dermott (900K)- Zaitsev (4.5M)
Borgman(1M) - Liljegren (900K)
Rosen (900K)


Andersen (5M)
Sparks (750K)

Buyouts: 1.2M
Horton: 5.5M

TOTAL SALARY == 80.275M, including Horton and Kessel.

Leafs will be fine, and in fact, still have 2.75 million in cap space.

Phew. That was easy!

You do know how a NMC works, right? Why would Marleau waive it, when he is at the twilight of his career and hoping to win a cup?

 

[TheGroceryStick]

Seems like a movable contract TBH . For a team with no cap issues, he isn't owed a heck of alot . Makes sense for the Leafs as they don't have to tightrope their way into the regular season using smoke and mirrors.

May actually work out fine for both sides. Toronto can attached a Okay prospect and/or a mid to late pick - Gain a few roster spots aswell.

E.g
Horton + Bracco/Timashov + 3rd
for
Cond. Pick in 2023

 

[Habs Halifax]

Yes, lets devalue Nylander by forcing a team to take Horton...

That was not my intentions but I do understand why it was not a popular return. But I did try to explain you the approach of adding futures, adding Petry at $4M for 3 years, and addressing the cap space which is real problem.

Can you explain your plan? I'm curious?

- 11 players singed with $30M in cap space for next year. The 11 players do not include Horton but the cap space does. So add another $5.3M if you feel that they can use this space all summer with no major problems afterwards. Lets add $4M in cap space for inflation. So 11 players signed with $39.5M in cap space.

What do each of the following get in new contracts?

- Nylander or who you can get in a trade?
- Matthews?
- Marner?
- Gardiner or who is replaced with?
- Kapanen?

According to my calculations, it results in 16 players signed with somewhere around $3M in cap space (if Nylander is signed). How do you get 7 more players with $3M in cap space? Lets say it's $5M in cap space. Still a major challenge and it ignores and possible challenge at maximizing the cap space with Horton's contract in the summer.

So my offer was to add Petry at $4M, take Horton't contract off your hands, and to receive futures for Nylander which helps address filling in holes on cheap ELC moving forward. This results in extra cap space which is needed to make improvements don't you think?

Lets avoid the confrontation. I'm just asking you to understand my approach and how it helps all teams needs in a huge trade.

 

[Liferleafer]

That was not my intentions but I do understand why it was not a popular return. But I did try to explain you the approach of adding futures, adding Petry at $4M for 3 years, and addressing the cap space which is real problem.

Can you explain your plan? I'm curious?

- 11 players singed with $30M in cap space for next year. The 11 players do not include Horton but the cap space does. So add another $5.3M if you feel that they can use this space all summer with no major problems afterwards. Lets add $4M in cap space for inflation. So 11 players signed with $39.5M in cap space.

What do each of the following get in new contracts?

- Nylander or who you can get in a trade?
- Matthews?
- Marner?
- Gardiner or who is replaced with?
- Kapanen?

According to my calculations, it results in 16 players signed with somewhere around $3M in cap space. How do you get 7 more players with $3M in cap space? Lets say it's $5M in cap space. Still a major challenge and it ignores and possible challenge at maximizing the cap space with Horton's contract in the summer.

So my offer was to add Petry at $4M, take Horton't contract off your hands, and to receive futures for Nylander which helps address filling in holes on cheap ELC moving forward. This results in extra cap space which is needed to make improvements don't you think?

Lets avoid the confrontation. I'm just asking you to understand my approach and how it helps all teams needs in a huge trade.

Your offer was crap yesterday....and it's crap today. I will agree that it helps one team....the Habs.

Why would we devalue Nylander. Why not trade Nylander for max value, then pay some picks/prospects to move Horton if need be?

 

[Holymakinaw]

Sorry buddy. Marleau has a full NMC and has been a productive player and good locker room guy. He's going nowhere.

Meh. Maybe.

Or maybe he'll want to wind down somewhere warm and nice, like Florida.

We just don't know, do we?

If he ends up staying, then we can move someone else. We only need to free up a few million.

 

[Habs Halifax]

Your offer was crap yesterday....and it's crap today. I will agree that it helps one team....the Habs.

Sure. There is no reasonable conversation possible with you. Your focus is clear. One HF poster reaches out to another and you get this reply. Not surprised.

Have fun with your hate replies. The only thing that is crap is your attitude.

 

[Liferleafer]

Sure. There is no reasonable conversation possible with you. Your focus is clear. Have fun

My focus, as i have stated is to either sign Nylander...or trade him for the best possible Dman we can get. Just because you want to restock the Habs cupboards while using the Leafs/Canes to do it doesn't mean i am unreasonable. it's really simple, in no way does trading Nylander and having Petry be the best Dman in return make sense....get it?

 

[Habs Halifax]

My focus, as i have stated is to either sign Nylander...or trade him for the best possible Dman we can get. Just because you want to restock the Habs cupboards while using the Leafs/Canes to do it doesn't mean i am unreasonable. it's really simple, in no way does trading Nylander and having Petry be the best Dman in return make sense....get it?

Go back and re-read it. I ask you sincere questions. Trying to have a conversation here, not a war. Come on man

 

[Holymakinaw]

That was not my intentions but I do understand why it was not a popular return. But I did try to explain you the approach of adding futures, adding Petry at $4M for 3 years, and addressing the cap space which is real problem.

LOL. No, it's not.

 

[Matthews34]

No, just an interesting read. What do you not agree with that's in the article? Something tells me you are in denial mode and turn a blind eye to anything that contradicts it.

Yes you're right the Leafs should restart the rebuild because there's no way for the Leafs to keep their core together in year 3 of the rebuild.

 

[Habs Halifax]

LOL. No, it's not.

Seriously? You don't think cap space is a problem starting next year? Wow

 

[Liferleafer]

Go back and re-read it. I ask you sincere questions. Trying to have a conversation here, not a war. Come on man

I don't need to re-read it....you want Nylander+ picks and Sandin traded for Petry plus picks and prospects. I want to sign Nylander, if that fails, i want him traded for the best possible D we can get, either 1 for 1 or adding to Nylander.

You spouting the same dam offer of Petry plus isn't changing anything.

 

[HC7]

Horton and a 2nd + 4th would probably be worth a conditional 7th.

Depends how much $5M is worth to a team. A team like NYR/MTL should be all over that.

 

[Matthews34]

That was not my intentions but I do understand why it was not a popular return. But I did try to explain you the approach of adding futures, adding Petry at $4M for 3 years, and addressing the cap space which is real problem.

Can you explain your plan? I'm curious?

- 11 players singed with $30M in cap space for next year. The 11 players do not include Horton but the cap space does. So add another $5.3M if you feel that they can use this space all summer with no major problems afterwards. Lets add $4M in cap space for inflation. So 11 players signed with $39.5M in cap space.

What do each of the following get in new contracts?

- Nylander or who you can get in a trade?
- Matthews?
- Marner?
- Gardiner or who is replaced with?
- Kapanen?

According to my calculations, it results in 16 players signed with somewhere around $3M in cap space (if Nylander is signed). How do you get 7 more players with $3M in cap space? Lets say it's $5M in cap space. Still a major challenge and it ignores and possible challenge at maximizing the cap space with Horton's contract in the summer.

So my offer was to add Petry at $4M, take Horton't contract off your hands, and to receive futures for Nylander which helps address filling in holes on cheap ELC moving forward. This results in extra cap space which is needed to make improvements don't you think?

Lets avoid the confrontation. I'm just asking you to understand my approach and how it helps all teams needs in a huge trade.

Horton's contract is only a problem for bonuses. 10% of the cap is 7.9 million so far less than 5.3 million cap hit for Horton which teams can go over in the summer. There are no ELC contracts of concern for 2019-2020 season so where's the issue. Why don't you worry about Price's 10.5 million cap when Price is 40.

 

[Holymakinaw]

Seriously? You don't think cap space is a problem starting next year? Wow

LOL. I've already shown how easy it is to be under the cap. Jesus. Are you people REALLY this blind? Or maybe you only see what you want to see, eh?

The cap should rise to around 83-84 million for next season. I'll keep Marleau in this one, just for fun.....Gardiner and Hainsey walk away as free agents. Lets assume some big contracts for the big three.

Marleau(6.25M) - Tavares(11M) - Marner(8.5M)
Hyman (2.25K)- Matthews (11M) - Nylander (7M)
Kapanen (3M) - Kadri (4.5M) - Grundstrom(925K)
Johnsson (1.5M)- Lindholm (1.2M) - Who cares? (650K)
Gauthier (675K)

Rielly (5M) - Ozhiganov (1.5M)
Dermott (900K)- Zaitsev (4.5M)
Borgman(1M) - Liljegren (900K)
Who cares? (650K)


Andersen (5M)
Sparks (750K)

Buyouts: 1.2M

TOTAL SALARY == 79.85M, including Kessel

Add Horton's 5.3 million in the offseason, and it's 85.15.......but all teams are allowed to be 10% over the cap in the offseason. As soon as the season begins, his salary goes on LTIR and we are MORE THAN FINE.

Phew. That was easy!

 

[sansabri]

If Vegas didn't take him, no one will.

 

[weinsink]

This is the most ridiculous deal ever. Not only that this BS is allowed, but discussion of the value of this as an asset is even a thought. They should allow the guy off the books as a retired player and let the dude settle up with the Leafs personally. Fact is he was more than likely damaged goods when he signed this contract. The whole thing is a tribute to fraud.

Looks good on them

 

[Habs Halifax]

LOL. I've already shown how easy it is to be under the cap. Jesus. Are you people REALLY this blind? Or maybe you only see what you want to see, eh?

The cap should rise to around 83-84 million for next season. I'll keep Marleau in this one, just for fun.....Gardiner and Hainsey walk away as free agents. Lets assume some big contracts for the big three.

Marleau(6.25M) - Tavares(11M) - Marner(8.5M)
Hyman (2.25K)- Matthews (11M) - Nylander (7M)
Kapanen (3M) - Kadri (4.5M) - Grundstrom(925K)
Johnsson (1.5M)- Lindholm (1.2M) - Who cares? (650K)
Gauthier (675K)

Rielly (5M) - Ozhiganov (1.5M)
Dermott (900K)- Zaitsev (4.5M)
Borgman(1M) - Liljegren (900K)
Who cares? (650K)


Andersen (5M)
Sparks (750K)

Buyouts: 1.2M

TOTAL SALARY == 79.85M, including Kessel

Add Horton's 5.3 million in the offseason, and it's 85.15.......but all teams are allowed to be 10% over the cap in the offseason. As soon as the season begins, his salary goes on LTIR and we are MORE THAN FINE.

Phew. That was easy!

Very possible if you let Gardiner and Hainsey walk. But that D man... Hope vs Reality. The other thing you are overlooking is the ability to improve on top of what you show moving forward. You better hope your prospects on D don't disappoint. And going 10% over the cap prior to the season starting and then moving Horton's contract to LTIR is more complicated than you think. Pretty sure Dubas looks to move that contract if possible.

 

[Habs Halifax]

Horton's contract is only a problem for bonuses. 10% of the cap is 7.9 million so far less than 5.3 million cap hit for Horton which teams can go over in the summer. There are no ELC contracts of concern for 2019-2020 season so where's the issue. Why don't you worry about Price's 10.5 million cap when Price is 40.

It's just a conversation and not sure why you ignore the fact that the Blackhawks avoided doing this with Hossa. They unloaded that contract for a reason, reasons you turn a blind eye towards.

 

[Archangel]

Is his contract going to be an issue for Toronto on Opening Night next year? They have to be under the ceiling even counting LTIR players and Marner/Matthews/Nylander still gotta get paid big time bucks.

What would the Leafs have to add to jettison him? I know these deals usually involve multiple moving parts.

Hawks had to move Hossa's contract and they gave up a decent player in Hinestroza, Osterle and 3rd but they had to take back Marcus Kruger and got a few other pieces.

I don't know if or how certain nuances might impact the value like insurance and all of that....

to move the contract the leafs will need to add either a 2nd or 3rd and a B prospect

 

[Liferleafer]

Very possible if you let Gardiner and Hainsey walk. But that D man... Hope vs Reality. The other thing you are overlooking is the ability to improve on top of what you show moving forward. You better hope your prospects on D don't disappoint. And going 10% over the cap prior to the season starting and then moving Horton's contract to LTIR is more complicated than you think. Pretty sure Dubas looks to move that contract if possible.

Alright, i will ask....you keep talking about these difficulties, well....explain them.

 

[Habs Halifax]

Alright, i will ask....you keep talking about these difficulties, well....explain them.

You got 3 pages of it in this thread.

 

[Habs Halifax]

I don't need to re-read it....you want Nylander+ picks and Sandin traded for Petry plus picks and prospects. I want to sign Nylander, if that fails, i want him traded for the best possible D we can get, either 1 for 1 or adding to Nylander.

You spouting the same dam offer of Petry plus isn't changing anything.

I know what you want, you want a slam dunk return for Nylander and to insert a young stud that has top 2 potential. Maybe you can get lucky and get a Sergachev/Drouin type swap. Possible but these trades are rare. You could easily get a Hall/Larrsson return though. I just don't see teams trading a proven young top 2 guy on D for Nylander. We will see.

If you want to re-sign Nylander, I get that. But this whole proposal is about a plan B or plan C approach

A: Try to sign Nylander to a team friendly deal.

B: If the team friendly deal is not possible, try to trade him for the best defenseman you can get

C: If you don't like the best defenseman you can get in a trade before Dec 1, then what? My proposal was to get a proven #3 guy at RD with retention to help your cap which is rare to acquire (Petry for 3 years at $4M), unload Horton's contract, and acquire multiple prospects who filter through the team to fills holes for cheap ELC moving forward (Bean, Drury, H Fleury). And also get a very good 2019 1st in the 5-15 range.

My focus was plan C.

Let me ask you this. Both Petry and Anderson have 3 years left. I know Anderson is your guy in net and he is good but what if you were in a position like the Habs to trade him for futures? What would you want? Would a prospect, 1st, 2nd be enough for his 3 years in term? What if the other team ask you to retain salary to fit in him their cap? What if they asked you to take an uninsured contract as well? I wonder what you would be saying.

You know what, I don't care about your feelings. I'm defending my offer and it's not terrible.

 

[Liferleafer]

I know what you want, you want a slam dunk return for Nylander and to insert a young stud that has top 2 potential. Maybe you can get lucky and get a Sergachev/Drouin type swap. Possible but these trades are rare. You could easily get a Hall/Larrsson return though. I just don't see teams trading a proven young top 2 guy on D for Nylander. We will see.

If you want to re-sign Nylander, I get that. But this whole proposal is about a plan B or plan C approach

A: Try to sign Nylander to a team friendly deal.

B: If the team friendly deal is not possible, try to trade him for the best defenseman you can get

C: If you don't like the best defenseman you can get in a trade before Dec 1, then what? My proposal was to get a proven #3 guy at RD with retention to help your cap which is rare to acquire (Petry for 3 years at $4M), unload Horton's contract, and acquire multiple prospects who filter through the team to fills holes for cheap ELC moving forward (Bean, Drury, H Fleury). And also get a very good 2019 1st in the 5-15 range.

My focus was plan C.

Let me ask you this. Both Petry and Anderson have 3 years left. I know Anderson is your guy in net and he is good but what if you were in a position like the Habs to trade him for futures? What would you want? Would a prospect, 1st, 2nd be enough for his 3 years in term? What if the other team ask you to retain salary to fit in him their cap? What if they asked you to take an uninsured contract as well? I wonder what you would be saying.

You know what, I don't care about your feelings. I'm defending my offer and it's not terrible.

Your offer isn't terrible for the Habs....but for the Leafs and Canes? It's terrible. You keep using Horton as reasoning....why wouldn't the Leafs jyst move a 2nd or 3rd+prospect if he has to be moved? Trade Nylander for a better D than Petry and keep our 1st and Sandin.

It's not about my feelings, it's common sense. We can achieve everything you are spewing (move Horton and trade Nylander) without helping the Habs and with getting a better D than Petry. All while keeping our 1st and Sandin.