Value of: Nathan Horton

[Filthy Dangles]

Is his contract going to be an issue for Toronto on Opening Night next year? They have to be under the ceiling even counting LTIR players and Marner/Matthews/Nylander still gotta get paid big time bucks.

What would the Leafs have to add to jettison him? I know these deals usually involve multiple moving parts.

Hawks had to move Hossa's contract and they gave up a decent player in Hinestroza, Osterle and 3rd but they had to take back Marcus Kruger and got a few other pieces.

I don't know if or how certain nuances might impact the value like insurance and all of that....

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[Liferleafer]

Is his contract going to be an issue for Toronto on Opening Night next year? They have to be under the ceiling even counting LTIR players and Marner/Matthews/Nylander still gotta get paid big time bucks.

What would the Leafs have to add to jettison him? I know these deals usually involve multiple moving parts.

Hawks had to move Hossa's contract and they gave up a decent player in Hinestroza, Osterle and 3rd but they had to take back Marcus Kruger and got a few other pieces.

I don't know if or how certain nuances might impact the value like insurance and all of that....

You can be 10% over the cap in the offseason. Also, this question can't be answered until Nylander signs....

 

[Tatar Shots]

The contract is uninsured. No one is eating it

 

[Lindberg Cheese]

10% cushion applies until they can stow him and his salary is less than 10% of the cap so I don’t see an issue as the Leafs are a richer team and can keep him until his contract expires. If I’m wrong here then it would cost a lower level roster player or B prospect or a 4th.

 

[Liferleafer]

The contract is uninsured. No one is eating it

Leafs don't need to move it, but i disagree with your post, if the payment was good enough, someone would take his contract.

 

[Filthy Dangles]

Contract was front loaded. He's owed 4.5M this year and 3.6M next year so it's not as bad as it could have been but still would have to give up something valuable.

So they get 10% breathing room. The cap is what 80M? So lets say it goes up another 3-4M....that's 8.4M in cap hit they can be over before Opening Night.

Matthews, Marner, Nylander and Kapanen all expire or expired.

Gardiner and Hainsey save them some bucks. It will probably be pretty damn close.

 

[SML2]

This is the most ridiculous deal ever. Not only that this BS is allowed, but discussion of the value of this as an asset is even a thought. They should allow the guy off the books as a retired player and let the dude settle up with the Leafs personally. Fact is he was more than likely damaged goods when he signed this contract. The whole thing is a tribute to fraud.

 

[Filthy Dangles]

This is the most ridiculous deal ever. Not only that this BS is allowed, but discussion of the value of this as an asset is even a thought. They should allow the guy off the books as a retired player and let the dude settle up with the Leafs personally. Fact is he was more than likely damaged goods when he signed this contract. The whole thing is a tribute to fraud.

No one is saying or implying Horton is an asset. He obviously has negative value. The value would be coming from the same side of the equation or equals sign.

The second bolded is just ridiculous. If that was allowed to happen, big market teams would sign players to crazy deals and then just have the player retire and fabricate injury if and when it goes awry and pay them under the table. Cap circumvention.....

 

[almostawake]

Yes you are allowed to go over the cap by 10% during the summer but one the opening day of the season if you cannot get under the cap before the player is transfered to LTIR you basically cannot use the LTIR overage of any other player for the rest of the season, or rather, until you can create a cap compliant roster with no players on LTIR.

So, yes, technically speaking the Leafs can use the 10% and be compliant with Horton. But it will cause problems for them. For reference, no team has gone into the season using LTIR as it is too restrictive. The Bruins's awful Boychuk trade was in fact made to simply avoid the LTIR opening day problem.

 

[SML2]

No one is saying or implying Horton is an asset. He obviously has negative value. The value would be coming from the same side of the equation or equals sign.

The second bolded is just ridiculous. If that was allowed to happen, big market teams would sign players to crazy deals and then just have the player retire and fabricate injury if and when it goes awry and pay them under the table. Cap circumvention.....

Then if the deal is involving insurance payouts at all, it's fraud, and you can play GM in the penal league. Big market owners didn't get where they are by intentionally wasting money. There is nothing whatsoever keeping a guy with deep pockets from honoring the remainder of a contract with a guy who has sacrificed his body for the franchise. The thing is, you'd find out how cutthroat business men were if they we're not contractually obligated to do the right thing.

 

[ottomaddox]

BTW Where is Clarkson's contract now? VGK?

 

[Filthy Dangles]

BTW Where is Clarkson's contract now? VGK?

Yes. CBJ gave up a 1st and 2nd to move him.

Jets wound up with that 1st and got Kristian Veslainen. They swapped 1sts with CBJ and CBJ added a 3rd to move up and take Suzuki.

 

[almostawake]

Then if the deal is involving insurance payouts at all, it's fraud, and you can play GM in the penal league. Big market owners didn't get where they are by intentionally wasting money. There is nothing whatsoever keeping a guy with deep pockets from honoring the remainder of a contract with a guy who has sacrificed his body for the franchise. The thing is, you'd find out how cutthroat business men were if they we're not contractually obligated to do the right thing.

Your arguments aren't following a line of logic.

First, no one is proposing Horton has value. The OP asked what the Leafs would have to part with to be rid of Horton's cap hit (and financial burden). There is no implication, anywhere, that they should get something for Horton.

Second, allowing Horton off the books, as you suggest, is something so far outside the terms of the CBA it is difficult to even reply to cogently. But to make an attempt, if a player's career has ended due to injury it should be completely impossible for the cap hit to be absolved by a pay out. Why? Because it would create an utterly trivial path for cash to be effectively transfered between teams.

 

[Habs Halifax]

Horton's contract and working around it in the off season is more complicated than most realize. It's not just as simple as saying you can go over by 10% easily with no problems at all. Ask the Blackhawks why they unloaded Hossa's contract.

Interesting article that explains the challenges... LTIR Isn’t Free Cap Space And The Leafs Need To Be Cautious In Using It

I think Dubas looks to move that contract if he can. But asking another teams GM to go to their owner to write off $4m (+/-) in actual money will require an asset worth while. For example, the Habs wrote off $2.73M in the Mason trade but got a NHL proven asset in Armia for doing it. How many teams run healthy profits and have owners that are willing to write off this amount of money? Not many!

Tag room, Bonus Performances, ect. There is a lot to review and project how this will play out. When you factor in that the Leafs need every single dollar in the cap space, it does make sense that they try to move the Horton contract.

If Nylander is traded, It would be smart to try to include Horton in the deal.

 

[Habs Halifax]

Yes you are allowed to go over the cap by 10% during the summer but one the opening day of the season if you cannot get under the cap before the player is transfered to LTIR you basically cannot use the LTIR overage of any other player for the rest of the season, or rather, until you can create a cap compliant roster with no players on LTIR.

So, yes, technically speaking the Leafs can use the 10% and be compliant with Horton. But it will cause problems for them. For reference, no team has gone into the season using LTIR as it is too restrictive. The Bruins's awful Boychuk trade was in fact made to simply avoid the LTIR opening day problem.

That's how I see it too. And I suspect is the reason why the Blackhawks moved the Hossa contract.

 

[almostawake]

That's how I see it too. And I suspect is the reason why the Blackhawks moved the Hossa contract.

Yup, another good example of where the opening day-LTIR rule came into play.

 

[Curufinwe]

The contract is uninsured. No one is eating it

The Flyers would for a significant asset. Lehtera's $4.7m cap hit comes off the books after this season.

 

[Habs Halifax]

Yup, another good example of where the opening day-LTIR rule came into play.

I know Leafs fans don't like hearing it and If I was in their situation, I would feel the same. However, Dubas has some very tough work ahead of him to keep things together and under the cap. It's reasonable to assume they will try to move the Horton contract but depends on who is interested and what is the incentive for that team to ask their owner to write off $4M in actual money cause it's not insured.

If it was insured, it would be very easy to move. But just because the money don't matter to the Leafs, it don't mean that other teams are willing to do the same.

If the Habs are even interested in moving Petry. I can see a deal between the Leafs and Habs. Habs take Horton's contract, retain on Petry but the pieces coming back might be a bitter pill to swallow.

 

[SML2]

Your arguments aren't following a line of logic.

First, no one is proposing Horton has value. The OP asked what the Leafs would have to part with to be rid of Horton's cap hit (and financial burden). There is no implication, anywhere, that they should get something for Horton.

Second, allowing Horton off the books, as you suggest, is something so far outside the terms of the CBA it is difficult to even reply to cogently. But to make an attempt, if a player's career has ended due to injury it should be completely impossible for the cap hit to be absolved by a pay out. Why? Because it would create an utterly trivial path for cash to be effectively transfered between teams.

I'm fed up with this shell game. I just typed out a huge rant, realized I was hijacking the thread and deleted it. I'm done. I won't bother this thread again.

 

[Just Linda]

I'm curious about Horton's no trade, no live clause. Could he employ it just to screw the leafs.

 

[WannabeFinn]

10% cushion applies until they can stow him and his salary is less than 10% of the cap so I don’t see an issue as the Leafs are a richer team and can keep him until his contract expires. If I’m wrong here then it would cost a lower level roster player or B prospect or a 4th.

You think someone would take on an uninsured Horton contract for a 4th rounder? Oof

 

[Matthews34]

The contract is uninsured. No one is eating it

Bingo!!

 

[LeafChief]

Correct me if I am wrong.

The Leafs should have no issue carrying him through the summer (being 10% over the cap). Once the season starts, he goes on LTIR. The Leafs shouldn't have any significant (if any) bonuses to worry about at that point.

Am I overlooking something?

 

[Habs Halifax]

Correct me if I am wrong.

The Leafs should have no issue carrying him through the summer (being 10% over the cap). Once the season starts, he goes on LTIR. The Leafs shouldn't have any significant (if any) bonuses to worry about at that point.

Am I overlooking something?

Consider the reasons why the Blackhawks moved the Hossa contract? It's not a simple as the 10% rule. If you use that rule, the restrictions for the following year have to be managed around. Read this article. It explains the challenges and I still am not going to pretend to be an expert after reading it. Most teams avoid the 10% rule due to the restrictions that follow

LTIR Isn’t Free Cap Space And The Leafs Need To Be Cautious In Using It

 

[Matthews34]

In hindsight Nonis never should have traded for Horton's contract being that Clarkson went on LTIR not long after the trade and his contract was insured and would have been traded to Arizona by now. Nonis strikes again!