Value of: Nathan Horton

[Habs Halifax]

Your offer isn't terrible for the Habs....but for the Leafs and Canes? It's terrible. You keep using Horton as reasoning....why wouldn't the Leafs jyst move a 2nd or 3rd+prospect if he has to be moved? Trade Nylander for a better D than Petry and keep our 1st and Sandin.

Actually, I haven't heard much from the Canes. So you are making assumptions. You don't realize what the Habs are trading and taking on either.

- We are retaining $1.5M to help the Leafs fit Petry in for 3 years. Petry at $4M for 3 years is a steal
- We are talking a uninsured contract and writing off $4M
- We are trading a very good #3 guy who is big, mobile, has goal scoring ability from the back end, and does all the little things well that a coach like Babcock would love to have.
- We are also trading Scherbak and Schlemko.

What are we getting back? Sandin who may or may not reach his ceiling potential, a late 1st, and other picks. Arguably, the Habs should get more and I bet you our GM does ask for more.

Horton's LTIR is a uninsured contract. The team taking him on will require a significant asset in order for their team to approach ownership to write off $4M. Habs wrote off $2.7M and got a proven NHL asset in Armia. A 2nd and 3rd won't be enough IMO. Not many teams run healthy profits like the Habs and Leafs do. That market is limited and might open up more if the incentive is worth it.

It's not terrible, you just don't like it from a Leafs perspective. It's all good.

 

[Liferleafer]

Actually, I haven't heard much from the Canes. So you are making assumptions.

Horton's LTIR is a uninsured contract. The team taking him on will require a significant asset in order for their team to approach ownership to write off $4M. Habs wrote off $2.7M and got a proven NHL asset in Armia. A 2nd and 3rd won't be enough IMO. Not many teams run healthy profits like the Habs and Leafs do. That market is limited and might open up more if the incentive is worth it.

I am only running on your false narrative that they have to move Horton...in reality, they don't.

 

[FerrisRox]

why wouldn't the Leafs jyst move a 2nd or 3rd+prospect if he has to be moved?

Do you really believe a team would spend $4 million to buy a 2nd rounder?

 

[Empoleon8771]

This is the most ridiculous deal ever. Not only that this BS is allowed, but discussion of the value of this as an asset is even a thought. They should allow the guy off the books as a retired player and let the dude settle up with the Leafs personally. Fact is he was more than likely damaged goods when he signed this contract. The whole thing is a tribute to fraud.

If you don't like that the Leafs have to pay him, maybe they shouldn't have traded for his dead weight.

 

[Liferleafer]

Do you really believe a team would spend $4 million to buy a 2nd rounder?

Phaneuf can't be moved....
Clarkson can't be moved....
Hossa can't be moved.....

If the Leafs HAVE to move Horton...they can. And i said 2nd+...but even if that's not enough, they can pay more. The point of the conversation you jumoed into was there is no reason to lower the return on Nylnder by forcing Horton into the deal.

 

[Habs Halifax]

I am only running on your false narrative that they have to move Horton...in reality, they don't.

You think it's false. But I have explained my reasons very clearly. It's OK, you don't agree. It's just a conversation man

 

[Habs Halifax]

Do you really believe a team would spend $4 million to buy a 2nd rounder?

He used the word easily too. And others are being unreasonable for some reason

 

[Liferleafer]

If you don't like that the Leafs have to pay him, maybe they shouldn't have traded for his dead weight.

The Leafs don't care about paying him....cash is not a problem for MLSE.

 

[Habs Halifax]

Phaneuf can't be moved....
Clarkson can't be moved....
Hossa can't be moved.....

If the Leafs HAVE to move Horton...they can. And i said 2nd+...but even if that's not enough, they can pay more. The point of the conversation you jumoed into was there is no reason to lower the return on Nylnder by forcing Horton into the deal.

Uninsured contract vs Insured ones. Some are easier to move vs others. It's very strange how you think the rest of the league is willing to throw away $4M like the Leafs can.

 

[Habs Halifax]

The Leafs don't care about paying him....cash is not a problem for MLSE.

Correct. But if you need to move him to avoid complications on working around the cap, it matters a lot to other teams who don't run healthy profits year after year. Come on man, you know

 

[Liferleafer]

He used the word easily too. And others are being unreasonable for some reason

I don't mean to nitpick....but where did i say easily?

 

[Liferleafer]

Correct. But if you need to move him to avoid complications on working around the cap, it matters a lot to other teams who don't run healthy profits year after year. Come on man, you know

Of course. But we don't HAVE to move him.

 

[FerrisRox]

Rielly (5M) - Ozhiganov (1.5M)
Dermott (900K)- Zaitsev (4.5M)
Borgman(1M) - Liljegren (900K)
Who cares? (650K)

Phew. That was easy!

You know what else will be easy? Entering the Leafs zone and peppering their net with shots. There's no chance in hell Dubas is going to ice that defense.

You're not taking this very seriously if you honestly think the Maple Leafs will use that defense.

Also, wouldn't Liljegren be entitled to bonuses?

 

[Habs Halifax]

I don't mean to nitpick....but where did i say easily?

Well, you said... "why don't the Leafs just move a 2nd and 3rd if they have to unload Horton". Make it sound like it's easy.

 

[Habs Halifax]

You know what else will be easy? Entering the Leafs zone and peppering their net with shots. There's no chance in hell Dubas is going to ice that defense.

You're not taking this very seriously if you honestly think the Maple Leafs will use that defense.

Also, wouldn't Liljegren be entitled to bonuses?

Every single Leafs prospect is going to reach their ceiling potential sooner rather than later (Hope vs Reality) 100% agree. Babcock and Dubas are looking to improve the D, not take steps back in their cup run years.

 

[Holymakinaw]

Very possible if you let Gardiner and Hainsey walk. But that D man... Hope vs Reality. The other thing you are overlooking is the ability to improve on top of what you show moving forward. You better hope your prospects on D don't disappoint. And going 10% over the cap prior to the season starting and then moving Horton's contract to LTIR is more complicated than you think. Pretty sure Dubas looks to move that contract if possible.

We have some great D coming up, and some good D already on the team. Don't look now, but only TWO teams in the east have given up fewer goals than the Leafs. Our D is pretty great.

And our core is set and will be locked up long-term. We improve just by getting another year older and more experienced.

 

[Liferleafer]

Well, you said... "why don't the Leafs just move a 2nd and 3rd if they have to unload Horton". Make it sound like it's easy.

Ok...question, lets say the Leafs have to move him to sign Matthews/Marner, that's the next offseason. Horton will only have 1 more year at 3.6 million in actual cash....you don't think the Leafs can find a taker for that?

 

[Holymakinaw]

You know what else will be easy? Entering the Leafs zone and peppering their net with shots. There's no chance in hell Dubas is going to ice that defense.

You're not taking this very seriously if you honestly think the Maple Leafs will use that defense.

Also, wouldn't Liljegren be entitled to bonuses?

LOL. Only two teams in the east have given up fewer goals than the Leafs. Our D is more than fine.

 

[Habs Halifax]

Of course. But we don't HAVE to move him.

That's the debate here and the purpose of the thread. You are entitled to your own opinions but not your own facts.

I'm going to be honest, I'm not sure about it. But the more you look into it, the more you realize it's not as simple as it sounds where you simply use the 10% rule with no complications. You have been avoiding this so I'll say it again. Why did the Blackhawks unload Hossa's contract?

 

[Spirit of 67]

Is his contract going to be an issue for Toronto on Opening Night next year? They have to be under the ceiling even counting LTIR players and Marner/Matthews/Nylander still gotta get paid big time bucks.

What would the Leafs have to add to jettison him? I know these deals usually involve multiple moving parts.

Hawks had to move Hossa's contract and they gave up a decent player in Hinestroza, Osterle and 3rd but they had to take back Marcus Kruger and got a few other pieces.

I don't know if or how certain nuances might impact the value like insurance and all of that....

I doubt they do anything about him.

 

[Habs Halifax]

Ok...question, lets say the Leafs have to move him to sign Matthews/Marner, that's the next offseason. Horton will only have 1 more year at 3.6 million in actual cash....you don't think the Leafs can find a taker for that?

Correct. It's $3.6M for next year of actual cash. But I do not think NHL owners are willing to write off this kind of money very easily. Their GM needs to approach them with some form of incentive. This is not a LTIR contract that is insured. This is about money and $3.6M is a lot!

Habs wrote off $2.73M in the deal with the Jets but got a NHL proven asset in Armia. They were able to do this based on circumstance. We went into last year with tons of cap space because we were not able to re-sign Markov and Radulov. Molson made a shit load of money last year.

I don't think the market of NHL teams like the Habs and Leafs who run healthy profits yearly is huge.

 

[Empoleon8771]

I think some Leafs fans are underestimating the problems of having Horton on LTIR, just like they were underestimating the problems that signing Marleau to the contract he got was going to cause. There are different off-season and in-season LTIRs I believe, but the important thing is that it's not "free cap space". The only time it is "free cap space" is if you put a player on LTIR when you're right at the cap during the season. The fact that the Leafs are going to be over the cap, and are going to need to put Horton on LTIR just to get under the cap, basically eliminates their ability to have any cap space during the season.

If they'd somehow be able to get under the cap, they'd be in a really good spot with keeping Horton. With being right at the cap, they'd be able to use all of Horton's LTIR space and be able to go way over the cap. The problem is that if they need to put Horton on LTIR just to get under the cap, they're going to have basically no cap space. They can do some paper transactions to get a little bit of cap space, but it's not going to be prorated or significant.

 

[Liferleafer]

Correct. It's $3.6M for next year of actual cash. But I do not think NHL owners are willing to write off this kind of money very easily. Their GM needs to approach them with some form of incentive. This is not a LTIR contract that is insured. This is about money and $3.6M is a lot!

Habs wrote off $2.73M in the deal with the Jets but got a NHL proven asset in Armia. They were able to do this based on circumstance. We went into last year with tons of cap space because we were not able to re-sign Markov and Radulov. Molson made a **** load of money last year.

I don't think the market of NHL teams like the Habs and Leafs who run healthy profits yearly is huge.

You think Armia is a lottery win? And you were able to sign those guys....you just didn't.

 

[Habs Halifax]

We have some great D coming up, and some good D already on the team. Don't look now, but only TWO teams in the east have given up fewer goals than the Leafs. Our D is pretty great.

And our core is set and will be locked up long-term. We improve just by getting another year older and more experienced.

I totally understand the hope. All teams have hope in their prospects. But there will be disappointments and it takes defenseman years for the coach to rely on them in a top 4D role.

But yes, if the plan is to re-sign Nylander and let Gardiner and Hainsey walk, the cap is manageable. You just better hope there is no major injuries on D and those young guys produce in top 4D roles!

 

[Holymakinaw]

I totally understand the hope. All teams have hope in their prospects. But there will be disappointments and it takes defenseman years for the coach to rely on them in a top 4D role.

But yes, if the plan is to re-sign Nylander and let Gardiner and Hainsey walk, the cap is manageable. You just better hope there is no major injuries on D and those young guys produce in top 4D roles!

Rielly, Zaitsev, Dermott already are! Only need one more to step up.

 

[Habs Halifax]

You think Armia is a lottery win? And you were able to sign those guys....you just didn't.

Armia is not a lottery win. He is a good top 9 forward who is young and cheap. Would you be happy if you had to give up Johnsson in order to unload Horton? Not saying this is what you have to do but the piece needs to be good enough for the other GM to approach their ownership group asking them to write off $3.6M in cash.

Yes, we could of re-signed them. This is not about Bergevin's failures in the summer of 2017. This is about how much money Molson made due to a large cap space and how the Habs used this to get Armia while writing off $2.7M the following off season. Jets wanted to get rid of Mason. They were willing to trade a NHL proven asset vs writing off the money themselves in a buy out.