Moving on from Jones?

[WSS11]

Hey guys.

How much of a chance is there that Dell actually starts to steal starts from this guy?

Asking for the benefit of my fantasy team.

If Deboer isn’t a complete moron, very likely

 

[TomasHertlsRooster]

Since 11/24/2017, when Jones was injured against Winnipeg:

59 GP 30 W 22 L 6OT .907 SV% 2.74 GAA

Add in a loss tonight, probably drop the SV% and raise the GAA just a bit. Adding in the playoffs probably helps these numbers quite a bit but they are still very alarming.

At this point, everybody is calling him an average goaltender. I’m starting to think that’s a cope. In my view, the guy is below average.

 

[OrrNumber4]

Optimistically, one could say that DeBoer knows what is going on and expects Jones to bounce back.

At the end of the day, Jones has still won a bunch of games and coaches do not like to tamper with a winning formula. It will take a series of losses for Dell to get a chance as the starter.

 

[one2gamble]

He might be the worst sharks starting goalie ever at this point, at least if he maintains this all season

 

[TomasHertlsRooster]

Martin Jones’ numbers have tanked since the system change and while some of that may be due to decline/injuries, some of it may also be due to the system change. It’s tough to say because he got injured in the very next game after we made the system change. Before the system change, he had played 146 games, and was a .916 SV% goaltender with a 2.32 GAA. After the system change, he has played 59 games, and is a .907% SV% goaltender with a 2.74 GAA.

A key factor (besides the eye test) which tells me that a lot of this is due to the system change is that Aaron Dell’s numbers have also been hit very hard since the system change. Before the system change, he played in 28 games and was a .928 SV% goaltender with a 2.06 GAA. Since the system change, he has played in 26 games and he has been a .910 SV% goaltender with a 2.82 GAA.

Both of these mid-20s goaltenders did not suddenly fall off of a cliff. The system change has hung them out to dry.

 

[mooncalf]

Martin Jones’ numbers have tanked since the system change and while some of that may be due to decline/injuries, some of it may also be due to the system change. It’s tough to say because he got injured in the very next game after we made the system change. Before the system change, he had played 146 games, and was a .916 SV% goaltender with a 2.32 GAA. After the system change, he has played 59 games, and is a .907% SV% goaltender with a 2.74 GAA.

A key factor (besides the eye test) which tells me that a lot of this is due to the system change is that Aaron Dell’s numbers have also been hit very hard since the system change. Before the system change, he played in 28 games and was a .928 SV% goaltender with a 2.06 GAA. Since the system change, he has played in 26 games and he has been a .910 SV% goaltender with a 2.82 GAA.

Both of these mid-20s goaltenders did not suddenly fall off of a cliff. The system change has hung them out to dry.

Eh, I understand you feel strongly about this, but these bolded posts in multiple threads are distracting. It's like shouting. Only slightly better than ALL CAPS.

 

[TomasHertlsRooster]

Eh, I understand you feel strongly about this, but these bolded posts in multiple threads are distracting. It's like shouting. Only slightly better than ALL CAPS.

Yeah, I'm probably bolding too much, because I feel like too much of it is important, must-see information. lol.

 

[Bizz]

Wins don't mean shit. If your goalie is on the wrong side of a .900 save percentage, he needs to sit.

As of tonight he's at .894 after 15 appearances. That's unacceptable for any team, let alone a Western Conference frontrunner.

 

[varano]

I don't get to watch sharks games because of the time zone but I took a look at the highlights from last nights game....

He looks structurally off. His challenges look like he's off his angles every single time.

Whatever the sharks are doing though, its not helping him. It looks like the defensemen are defensively off. Way too many breakaways and odd man chances. I don't know if this game was an outlier and I don't know much about the sharks system in all honesty.

Two or three of those goals last night were structural issues though and he should have had. But then again he stopped two or three quasi breakaways so I don't know....

Does that leave me back to "I don't know" in regards to Jones? What changed from one season to the next?

 

[do0glas]

I dont see much that can be done this season. I hope deboer adjusts though

 

[Dicdonya]

Still bananas that Jones is getting the hate he is. Tor had about 500 breakaways and odd man rushes yet still Jones gets the primary blame. It’s like cursing out a QB for tossing 4 picks in a game he’s been sacked 10 times, and hurried 25 times. It’s really dumb.

If Jones is so trash, why is he stellar on the PK?

Of 28 goalies who’ve played at least 50 mins short handed, Jones is 4th in Sv%, 2nd in GAA, faced the second most HD shots against, but is 5th in HDSV%, and 6th in HDGAA. He is also facing shots on average closer then any other goalie on the PK.

Here’s a crazy idea, it’s because our team is actually playing defense. Blocking shots and shooting lanes like defenders are supposed to, allowing Jones, a positional goalie, to cover the lanes our PK isn’t designed to stop.

I’m not saying Jones was good against Toronto, or even all year, but for f***s sake until this team stops giving up what seems like 10-15 clear breakaways and odd man rushes every game, we have no idea if Jones is actually bad, or if its the lack of defense that is destroying him.

Even if you want to argue Jones sucks more then others at stopping breakaways and 2v1’s, that’s fine, but as a coach, and a teammate why then are they not adjusting their defense to limit those things. It’s mind boggling. Deboer needs to go.

 

[one2gamble]

He's getting hate because he looks bad even on simple saves. There is something fundamentaly off with him right now.

 

[hockeyball]

If I was the coaching staff, I would call up Bibeau immediately and sit Dell for a game. This sends a really strong message to both goalies of "Get your shit together or we will find someone who can". Maybe Bibeau takes the opportunity and runs with it, allowing us to trade Dell or Jones away. Maybe it inspires Dell or Jones to step up their compete level... Either way it's a win win. It also rewards Bibeau for his great play in the AHL, and we could also follow it up and give Korenar a cup of coffee too. If we could get lucky and have one of the AHL guys replace Jones, and move Jones somewhere it would really relieve our cap problems tremendously. We could afford someone like Nylander, re-sign all our guys, maybe even keep Pavelski all while re-signing Karlsson. Frankly, at this point, even if Bibeau sucks as much as Jones has, at least we are paying him a ton less...

 

[Fistfullofbeer]

If I was the coaching staff, I would call up Bibeau immediately and sit Dell for a game. This sends a really strong message to both goalies of "Get your **** together or we will find someone who can". Maybe Bibeau takes the opportunity and runs with it, allowing us to trade Dell or Jones away. Maybe it inspires Dell or Jones to step up their compete level... Either way it's a win win. It also rewards Bibeau for his great play in the AHL, and we could also follow it up and give Korenar a cup of coffee too. If we could get lucky and have one of the AHL guys replace Jones, and move Jones somewhere it would really relieve our cap problems tremendously. We could afford someone like Nylander, re-sign all our guys, maybe even keep Pavelski all while re-signing Karlsson. Frankly, at this point, even if Bibeau sucks as much as Jones has, at least we are paying him a ton less...

In general I would say start Dell for a few games straight over Jones. See how he does. If that fails then bring up Bibeau and go down the same route you said.

 

[SjMilhouse]

Can't find the post now but someone made a good point earlier. The system is leading to a ridiculous number of odd man rushes and breakaways which are not really playing to Jones strengths which are more about solid positioning. While that's his issue in a way, I think it speaks more about why the defense and the defensive breakdowns deserve to shoulder a lot of the blame. Dell has been no better than Jones.

Everyone seems to be keying in on the first 10 games when Jones gave up some real real bad goals but it's gotten ridiculous that the expectation is now that he stops every break away (he gets no credit when he does stop 2 of the like 6 he faces), he has to stop every odd man rush, every deflected shot, ect.

He hasn't been good but the reaction here has been so over the top it's making it hard to come read these boards. Everyone has to take some crazy extreme position about Jones, Melker, ect.

 

[Alaskanice]

Can't find the post now but someone made a good point earlier. The system is leading to a ridiculous number of odd man rushes and breakaways which are not really playing to Jones strengths which are more about solid positioning. While that's his issue in a way, I think it speaks more about why the defense and the defensive breakdowns deserve to shoulder a lot of the blame. Dell has been no better than Jones.

Everyone seems to be keying in on the first 10 games when Jones gave up some real real bad goals but it's gotten ridiculous that the expectation is now that he stops every break away (he gets no credit when he does stop 2 of the like 6 he faces), he has to stop every odd man rush, every deflected shot, ect.

He hasn't been good but the reaction here has been so over the top it's making it hard to come read these boards. Everyone has to take some crazy extreme position about Jones, Melker, ect.

Good post.
I wanted to stress your point about Jones’ strengths.

He is a positional goalie. He does well in traffic but isn’t a “flopper” such as Quick or Fleury.

Jones makes great saves when he has defense in front of him.
He’s not always been bad at breakaways, he saved a few last night but he’s obviously down in that respect.

He will come around when our defense stops bleeding breakaways.

 

[TomasHertlsRooster]

The Sharks currently have the worst 5V5 expected save percentage in the NHL.

I’m the last one to say that Jones has been up to par this season, but it’s not realistic to expect him to have a league average SV% unless you think he is a top-end goalie in the NHL.

 

[Sharksfan83]

Our strength is meant to be our defensive group. They are constantly giving the puck up and allowing breakaways and odd man rushes. Until that is fixed then I refuse to call for a goalie change.

Like people calling for Bibeau to be thrown in here. That’s not going to help his confidence when all he gets to see is constant breakaways and defensive break downs in front of him.

 

[TomasHertlsRooster]

Our strength is meant to be our defensive group. They are constantly giving the puck up and allowing breakaways and odd man rushes. Until that is fixed then I refuse to call for a goalie change.

Like people calling for Bibeau to be thrown in here. That’s not going to help his confidence when all he gets to see is constant breakaways and defensive break downs in front of him.

LMAO, for real, Bibeau would get f***ing destroyed if he was called up.

 

[5H4RK5]

I would give Dell 7 games straight no matter the outcome and try Korenar, Bibeau and Emonds for 7 games each to see if any can work with the new NHL pads. If 2 out of them prevail we are set for the playoffs or we move for another goalie trade. Jones is AHL level with bad glove, 5 hole, left to right and can't stop a breakaway to save his life. NEXT Make sure our goalies in the system like Korenar, Bibeau and Emonds have the same new NHL pads so they can practice in the AHL.

 

[Dicdonya]

He's getting hate because he looks bad even on simple saves. There is something fundamentaly off with him right now.

Oh really? Please point out the "simple save" that he did not make against Toronto.

Simple save is not a breakaway, not a well executed 2v1, not a wide open top shelf snipe from the low slot, not a unlucky puck off a teammates skate that quickly and suddenly changes direction.

Simple saves are like unscreened point shots for rebounds, weak wristers from outside the slot, etc. So please tell me where he let any "simple" shots in against Toronto.

 

[one2gamble]

Oh really? Please point out the "simple save" that he did not make against Toronto.

Simple save is not a breakaway, not a well executed 2v1, not a wide open top shelf snipe from the low slot, not a unlucky puck off a teammates skate that quickly and suddenly changes direction.

Simple saves are like unscreened point shots for rebounds, weak wristers from outside the slot, etc. So please tell me where he let any "simple" shots in against Toronto.

Go read what I typed and tell me where it says he didn't make them......I said he looks uncomfortable even on simple saves. And just so you know, he has in fact let those kinds of goals in this season.

 

[TomasHertlsRooster]

I would give Dell 7 games straight no matter the outcome and try Korenar, Bibeau and Emonds for 7 games each to see if any can work with the new NHL pads. If 2 out of them prevail we are set for the playoffs or we move for another goalie trade. Jones is AHL level with bad glove, 5 hole, left to right and can't stop a breakaway to save his life. NEXT Make sure our goalies in the system like Korenar, Bibeau and Emonds have the same new NHL pads so they can practice in the AHL.

All 3 of those guys would get absolutely slaughtered behind this Sharks defense. 21 straight games with one of them in net would effectively knock us out of playoff contention and into contention for Jack Hughes.

 

[Dicdonya]

Go read what I typed and tell me where it says he didn't make them......I said he looks uncomfortable even on simple saves. And just so you know, he has in fact let those kinds of goals in this season.

I disagree, he looks very comfy making simple saves, its why he has been great on the PK where the shots he is facing are more generally the simple variety because the opposing team is not allowed to get 50 odd man rushes and breakaways.

I am sure he has let in a few simple shots, but those shots are absolutely not the ones he is generally failing to save. Also at what point do we/you admit he may look uncomfortable because his defense is giving him zero comfort in front of him. Hard to be confident and comfortable when your defense is allowing an inordinate amount of high quality shots on net.

If our team could string together like 3 games where they actually play defense, and Jones still cannot manage to have 3 decent to great games, I will gladly join the Jones sucks brigade, until then however, you cannot blame the most team reliant player for everything when his team is unquestionably playing like crap in front of him, from a defense perspective.

 

[OrrNumber4]

Oh really? Please point out the "simple save" that he did not make against Toronto.

Simple save is not a breakaway, not a well executed 2v1, not a wide open top shelf snipe from the low slot, not a unlucky puck off a teammates skate that quickly and suddenly changes direction.

Simple saves are like unscreened point shots for rebounds, weak wristers from outside the slot, etc. So please tell me where he let any "simple" shots in against Toronto.

Just one example, there was a shot from behind the blueline from a Toronto player. Jones made the save, but he should have been able to control the puck and move it his defenseman, or at least direct the rebound that way. But instead, the puck kind of glanced off his pad and into the corner, where the Leafs could start their forecheck.

There was another instance where he moved laterally and didn't track his glove across properly, which is a junior-level mistake.

Lastly, on the Kapanen breakaway, he tried to use his backward momentum in helping him make the save and it was very poorly executed.

All of this is in context. A goalie having those problems quite often just points to him having an unfocused game. With Jones, it happens in game after game.