Moving on from Jones?

Discussion in 'San Jose Sharks' started by OrrNumber4, Nov 4, 2018.

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  1. OrrNumber4

    OrrNumber4 Registered User

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    Been very disappointed with his play this season. I don't think he has had a solid start-to-finish the entire season.

    I've also come to believe that Jones is never going to be that elite goalie who can be a foundational piece on a championship-winning team.

    Given his contract and the Shark's situation, is it time to move on?
     
  2. Pinkfloyd

    Pinkfloyd Registered User

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    No. Next question.
     
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  3. JoeThorntonsRooster

    JoeThorntonsRooster There is no anti-Leafs bias on HFBoards

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    Statistically, the aggregate of Jones’ 200+ starts as a Shark show that he is a slightly above average goaltender in the regular season, and an elite goaltender in the playoffs.

    I am very critical of him, and I think he has had a terrible start to the season, but there isn’t going to be a better option available. We are stuck with him for better or worse.
     
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  4. Sysreq

    Sysreq Registered User

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    He has always been spotty in the regular season. And last season against Vegas. And ya, now that I am thinking about it, we should move on.
     
  5. one2gamble

    one2gamble Registered User

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    He's an average goalie. If there is an above average goalie, yes, if not no. That said I'm still going to laugh at him and hope he figures it out
     
  6. 5H4RK5

    5H4RK5 Registered User

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    I would look to upgrade to Bobrovsky if he take a similar 2 year deal like Rinne at 5 per or look for a athletic goalie with patience, good glove, and explosion. Jones is not built for the new pad era. Give Bibeau some games if he shows up then we ride Dell, Bibeau.

    They should give Jones, Dell, Bibeau a 11 game stretch and switch goalies on back to backs to test goalie mental endurance and consistency. We will then know if we have a playoff caliber goalie with the new pad era.
     
    Last edited: Nov 4, 2018
  7. Bizz

    Bizz 120% Banter

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    There aren't very many other options available right now. Bobs maybe.
     
    Last edited: Nov 4, 2018
  8. Jaleel619

    Jaleel619 Registered User

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    Is this the year of hot takes across the league or what?
     
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  9. Tw1ster

    Tw1ster Registered User

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    If we can get Bob, for sure. If not, take the 30 wins he will get in the regular season and the above average performance he provides in the playoffs.
     
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  10. Evincar

    Evincar I have found the way

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    How is Bob an upgrade? Your basically trading an average regular season goalie who is elite in the playoffs, for a goalie who is elite in the regular season but bad in the playoffs. Plus Bob is going to want a big contract.

    Why does he need to be an elite goalie to win a Cup? You could make an argument that theyre are no more elite goaltenders in today's game. Its just not an important position anymore. Jones is fine, you can win with him.
     
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  11. OrrNumber4

    OrrNumber4 Registered User

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    The thing about the whole "elite in the playoffs" thing...he was spectacular for three straight series against Pittsburgh, Edmonton, and Anaheim. He was the single greatest reason the Sharks lost against Vegas.

    There are elite goaltenders, it is just that by definition, there aren't a lot of them.
     
  12. JoeThorntonsRooster

    JoeThorntonsRooster There is no anti-Leafs bias on HFBoards

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    The thing about the whole “elite in the playoffs” thing is that since 2015-2016, among 22 goaltenders who have started at least 7 games, Jones ranks 4th in wins, 3rd in SV%, and 4th in GAA. If you limit those numbers to the 13 goaltenders who have started at least 17 games, Jones ranks 1st in SV% and 2nd in GAA.

    I would entirely agree with the argument that a discrepancy in goaltending performance is the biggest reason that the Sharks lost to Vegas, but I would say that if you must put that on one player, then it’s Fleury.

    However, I do agree with the general sentiment that Jones was very poor against Vegas, and that that provides room for concern about his playoff performances going forward. I’m worried about Jones. I think he’s pretty overrated. He’s my biggest concern on this team. But the numbers don’t lie.

    Who are these elite goaltenders? Particularly, what goaltenders have been elite in the regular season and playoffs over the course of the past 2 seasons? Or, what goaltenders have been elite in some portions of those, and bad in none of them? Fleury and Holtby were bad in the 16-17 and 17-18 RS, respectively. Bobrovsky was terrible in both of the playoffs. Matt Murray was bad in the 17-18 regular season and playoffs. Pekka Rinne was bad in the 17-18 playoffs.

    I suppose that one could argue that John Gibson was bad in none of those, but he was thoroughly outplayed by Martin Jones in a playoff series. Visually, I thought Gibson was solid, but his 3.59 GAA and .889 SV% in the playoffs against us are a hell of a lot more reliable than what I think my eyes told me in April. Right now, goaltenders are simply very inconsistent. There isn’t a single one who has been elite in the regular season and playoffs for the past two seasons.

    Again, I’m not a Jones apologist. I think he’s been terrible to start the season. But the numbers, over a very large sample size, are in his favor.
     
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  13. BCShark

    BCShark Registered User

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    i dont think he has it
     
  14. DominikBokkFan

    DominikBokkFan Unlike Chiarelli, at least Chia seeds benefit you.

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    Flames will gladly take him.
     
  15. OrrNumber4

    OrrNumber4 Registered User

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    Assuming that those numbers are the best way to judge goaltenders, that wouldn't even put Jones in the top 10%, which is the minimum standard I would have for judging a goaltender as elite.

    I meant just on the Sharks.

    My concern with Jones is that even when you look at his playoff record, game-by-game, it is unspectacular. He outright cost the Sharks the Vegas series; with an average goaltender, the Sharks advance. By that same metric, there has yet to be a series where the Sharks wouldn't have advanced without Jones.

    Even in the 2016 run, I thought Jones had 4 games where he was a strong positive difference-maker (games 2 vs LA and Nashville, and games 3 and 5 vs Pittsburgh) and 4 games where he was a strong negative difference-maker (games 4 and 6 vs Nashville, game 4 vs STL, and game 4 vs Pittsburgh)

    I'd say that right now, Holtby, Fleury, Gibson, Dubnyk, Hellebucyk, and Vasilevskiy are up there. Goaltenders like Price, Rask, Lundqvist, and Crawford could have made those claims in the past.

    There are many goaltenders who are unknowns, like Aaron Dell, for example.

    In any case, there are goaltenders who have done better than Jones, and I'm afraid Jones is declining. Has he ever had a stretch this bad as a Shark? Maybe when he was playing through an injury for 10ish games in 2017...
     
  16. SFtoBoston

    SFtoBoston Left Heart In SF

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    Its definitely the forum for it.
     
  17. mooncalf

    mooncalf Registered User

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    That's not how I remember this series. Jones was not good, but the Sharks were thoroughly outplayed in that series, particularly at forward.

    Jones is fine. He's been pretty lousy so far this season in a very small sample size. Sharks are not moving on from him. I say this as someone who considers him a totally average goalie. He could get hot in the playoffs and carry us, or he could go the other way. The same can be said of pretty much every goalie in the league. Who thought Fleury of all people would be so good in the playoffs last year? Just have to cross our fingers.
     
  18. Crazy Joe Divola

    Crazy Joe Divola Registered User

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    The Sharks lost to Vegas because MAF waited until the following series to start playing like MAF. Jones could’ve been better but he didn’t cost the Sharks the series.

    I think he’s just got concentration issues. Only thing I can think of where he will seem to space out sometimes in regular season games and let in inexplicably soft goals but when playoffs start and he’s focused for every game he’s really good.
     
  19. stator

    stator Registered User

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    Jones is an improvement over Niemi and Stalock, but not quite the improvement the Sharks need.

    Classifying eliteness is difficult, but I don't see Jones quite as elite in the playoffs, and certainly not in the regular season.

    If a goalie wants to be considered elite, but play mediocre in the regular season, he has to have multiple cup rings on his hand as the starter, imo.

    Even then, people debate whether Quick is an elite goaltender.
     
  20. Patty Ice

    Patty Ice Best in the World

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    Definitely time to move on. I think Wilson should look to move him for Bobrovsky or Rask if possible.

    This is the best chance I've witnessed for the Sharks to finally win that Cup but it is fast being derailed by Jones' pathetic play and is looking to ruin early this promising season.
     
  21. Evincar

    Evincar I have found the way

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    So did Fleury against Washington, Hellebuyck against Nashville and Rinne against Winnipeg.

    There is maybe like 5 elite goalies at best. If there isnt that many elite goalies than it shouldnt be a problem that the Sharks dont have one.
     
  22. OrrNumber4

    OrrNumber4 Registered User

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    Except when you run into one of those 5 goaltenders in the playoffs...
     
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  23. Pinkfloyd

    Pinkfloyd Registered User

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    Quite simply no goaltender can turn this team into a Cup-winning team with the way it plays defense right now.
     
  24. ChubbChubby

    ChubbChubby Using tilt controls!

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    I don't think it's a focus issue and more that Jones has poor puck tracking and vision. I've been paying more attention to his head movements, reactionary positioning, and ability to fight screens over the last year and compared to other goalies, he seems to struggle with following the play and therefore responds much slower. What we initially thought was being cool under pressure and minimizing movements might actually just be him losing sight of the puck and relying on sound positioning to compensate.
     
  25. Internazionale

    Internazionale Registered User

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    I'd argue that he is one of the worst contracts on the team, but moving him now makes zero sense. Unless teams are willing to overpay, we are stuck with him. Every game it seems that he struggles mentally early on giving up early goals. Does the team in front of him have that little faith in him? I just don't get why he is regressing instead of progressing.
     

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