Moving on from Jones?

[Dicdonya]

Just one example, there was a shot from behind the blueline from a Toronto player. Jones made the save, but he should have been able to control the puck and move it his defenseman, or at least direct the rebound that way. But instead, the puck kind of glanced off his pad and into the corner, where the Leafs could start their forecheck.

There was another instance where he moved laterally and didn't track his glove across properly, which is a junior-level mistake.

Lastly, on the Kapanen breakaway, he tried to use his backward momentum in helping him make the save and it was very poorly executed.

All of this is in context. A goalie having those problems quite often just points to him having an unfocused game. With Jones, it happens in game after game.

Good, why don't these things matter on the PK?

Why is our trash goalie, who has no confidence supposedly, able to be top 5ish statistically in the league, when our team is actually disadvantaged? If Jones is so slow, and has such poor reaction time, and cant move laterally yada yada yada, why is he not getting absolutely murdered on the PK.

We all know the reason, but the Jones hate brigade wont let that stand in the way of hating on him for not stopping 95% of odd man rushes, breakaways, and top shelf snipes every game.

 

[undercovernerd]

Good, why don't these things matter on the PK?

Why is our trash goalie, who has no confidence supposedly, able to be top 5ish statistically in the league, when our team is actually disadvantaged? If Jones is so slow, and has such poor reaction time, and cant move laterally yada yada yada, why is he not getting absolutely murdered on the PK.

We all know the reason, but the Jones hate brigade wont let that stand in the way of hating on him for not stopping 95% of odd man rushes, breakaways, and top shelf snipes every game.

There’s a member who made perfect sense yesterday. He said something to the tune of: Maybe our team knows that we have to score a minimum of 4 goals to have a chance at winning. Thus, this leads to players (especially our defensive guys) trying to overcompensate which leads to breakaways.

What’s my point here? Well, when we’re disadvantaged during a 5v4 PP, our players buckle down instead of taking chances.

This is not too far fetched IMO.

Everyone knows I rag on jones quite often, admittedly sometimes quite unfairly. I was a HUGE proponent of his the past two years, but something is CLEARLY off this year. I haven’t given up on him, and sometimes the hate for jones with us fans is unwarranted.... but even the biggest homers have to see something is up.

 

[Dicdonya]

There’s a member who made perfect sense yesterday. He said something to the tune of: Maybe our team knows that we have to score a minimum of 4 goals to have a chance at winning. Thus, this leads to players (especially our defensive guys) trying to overcompensate which leads to breakaways.

What’s my point here? Well, when we’re disadvantaged during a 5v4 PP, our players buckle down instead of taking chances.

This makes perfect sense IMO.

Wow, so like you mean, if maybe our team played defense, and "buckled down" during 5v5 play, our goalie might not let in 4 goals a game. What a concept.

LMAO at pretending we get down a couple goals BEFORE the breakaways and odd man rushes start. No we are not allowing those because our team is attempting to compensate for goals against, we are getting goals against because they are letting breakaways and odd man rushes to occur all game, every game.

 

[Bleedred]

I've maintained for a while now that Jones is just average. Nothing more, nothing less.

Average starting goalies are sometimes good some years, and poor other years, but they're usually just average. And that's what Jones has rounded out to.

I don't think he's played as poorly as his numbers suggest this year, which is why I expect more pucks to start hitting him and for him to progress to the mean of average or slightly below/slight above average by the end of the season.

The mainboard really was overrating him as a top 10 guy in the league or whatever, and he was never one of those.

He's sort of like 2003-2014 Fleury to me. Fleury was just average for that decade stretch. Just an average starter on a pretty stacked (they were stacked for most of those years) team. Some years Fleury was poor, a couple other years he was good, but he was mostly average between those years (he's been better in his 30's than he was before that, but that's for a different conversation). Jones hasn't had the playoff stinkers that Fleury had those years, but I'm talking regular season only. So Jones to me is on par with what Fleury was for the first decade of his career. Just an average starter.

 

[undercovernerd]

Wow, so like you mean, if maybe our team played defense, and "buckled down" during 5v5 play, our goalie might not let in 4 goals a game. What a concept.

LMAO at pretending we get down a couple goals BEFORE the breakaways and odd man rushes start. No we are not allowing those because our team is attempting to compensate for goals against, we are getting goals against because they are letting breakaways and odd man rushes to occur all game, every game.

Oh, he’d still let those goals in. This is jones we’re speaking of here.

I’m saying IF HE DIDNT LET IN 4 GOALS maybe the team wouldn’t have to overcompensate.

 

[Bleedred]

To break it down for you

There might not even be 10 teams in the NHL with a better goaltender than Jones.

And there's also only about 7 teams in the NHL that don't have a goalie that's at least as good, if not better than Jones.

Jones falls under that echelon of interchangeable starting goalies, who have very little difference between one another. I think the only teams that don't have a goalie that's not at least as good or better than Jones are Vancouver, St. Louis, Carolina, Detroit definitely and maybe New Jersey, Buffalo and Ottawa. That doesn't mean Jones is #24 out of 31 starting goalies, as much as it means that starting goalies 8-24 are pretty average and have little difference. There's also a lot of goalies still living on reputation like Tuukka Rask, who had a much better peak than Jones, but at this point is no better.

 

[one2gamble]

Wow, so like you mean, if maybe our team played defense, and "buckled down" during 5v5 play, our goalie might not let in 4 goals a game. What a concept.

LMAO at pretending we get down a couple goals BEFORE the breakaways and odd man rushes start. No we are not allowing those because our team is attempting to compensate for goals against, we are getting goals against because they are letting breakaways and odd man rushes to occur all game, every game.

Serious question. Have you ever played hockey in front of a goalie you have no confidence in

It's not that you are wrong, the team is hanging him out to dry but he's not doing himself any favors looking like trash on a lot of plays.

 

[Dicdonya]

Serious question. Have you ever played hockey in front of a goalie you have no confidence in

It's not that you are wrong, the team is hanging him out to dry but he's not doing himself any favors looking like trash on a lot of plays.

Nope, have you played goalie behind a team you have no confidence in?

Its not that you are wrong, but they are not doing themselves any favors playing trash defense/overly dangerous offense most of the game.

 

[Bleedred]

Here's an interesting stat.

Martin Brodeur after 15 games in 07-08 had an .887% save percentage.

He wound up finishing with a .920% after 77 games and won the Vezina and had what I think was arguably the best season of his career.

Obviously, Jones isn't on the same planet as Brodeur and never will be, and he's not gonna play 77 games. But I do think Jones can be back at .915% or so by season's end. A hot month basically puts him back up there.

 

[one2gamble]

Nope, have you played goalie behind a team you have no confidence in?

Yes........

But my beginner beer league goaltending fun doesn't really apply



I don't know why you can't admit Jones is not playing well. 90% of the forum is willing to admit team D is an issue. They also aren't blind to the fact that he is not playing well at all. He's been below average, period.

 

[5H4RK5]

Martin Brodeur has a glove hand, one of the best from the left to right, great against breakaways only once in a while susceptible to a 5 hole.

 

[Dicdonya]

Yes........

But my beginner beer league goaltending fun doesn't really apply



I don't know why you can't admit Jones is not playing well. 90% of the forum is willing to admit team D is an issue. They also aren't blind to the fact that he is not playing well at all. He's been below average, period.

When have I ever said Jones was playing well?

There is a massive divide between Jones playing poorly, along with his team, and this board being annoyed at everyone involved, OR literally attributing every single goal against Jones as his fault, and calling him a beer league, AHL reject goalie like some here are strongly implying, if not literally saying.

I don't give one shit if people are bummed by Jones play, but the implication that he has suddenly fallen off a cliff into sub AHL level goaltending, coincidentally when our team defense is piss poor, and also coinciding with Dell playing poorly, and we are allowing way the f*** too many high danger, high quality, breakaway, odd man rush shots on Jones, is moronic.

It is not in any, way, shape or manner a surprise that the most team dependent player on the ice, is having a poor year, behind a team that is playing poorly. However it seems some of you are unable to figure that out. Me saying Jones is not the main factor behind our piss poor GA this year, is wholly different then me saying I think he is playing well.

At this point I would not be surprised if Ovi scored a goal on a rink wide, perfectly timed pass, that he one times a, 100mph slapshot, perfectly placed short side top shelf bar down, and this board still blames Jones for "being to slow to react" or some other utter BS.

 

[matt trick]

Here's an interesting stat.

Martin Brodeur after 15 games in 07-08 had an .887% save percentage.

He wound up finishing with a .920% after 77 games and won the Vezina and had what I think was arguably the best season of his career.

Obviously, Jones isn't on the same planet as Brodeur and never will be, and he's not gonna play 77 games. But I do think Jones can be back at .915% or so by season's end. A hot month basically puts him back up there.

Can you share your goalie tier rankings?

 

[Bleedred]

Can you share your goalie tier rankings?

You mean as far as the elite tier, the average tier and bad tier?

I'll take a stab at this, but remember, a couple of these names had bad seasons last year and have continued to be bad into this year. They deserved the benefit of the doubt of just one poor season being a down year, but from Price and Holtby, it looks like it's continuing this year. I'm still keeping them both in the elite tier for now, but if they're still struggling to chase league average goaltending by the halfway point of this season, I think it's time to take them off and absolutely take them out of the elite category if they finish this season with their poor numbers from last year. So there's my disclaimer.

Elite category for me would be (in no order) Bobrovsky, Price (barely hanging on), Holtby (barely hanging on), Gibson, Crawford, Fleury (having a poor start, been one of the best from 2014 till now, had a mediocre season 2 years ago, he's starting out that way this year), Rinne. I think Rinne just got himself back into this category after a string of 3 poor seasons in 4 years, but it looks like the Rinne of his 20's has come back over the last 2+ years, at least for now. I do think Luongo still deserves to be in this, Lundqvist is borderline right now. Not the Lundqvist of old and has been average the last two years, but also hasn't had a season as poor as some of these other elite guys have recently. Because Lundqvist and Luongo were the best for so long, it's harder to take them off this list and neither has fallen off too much. Both are declining (Luongo is missing lots of time with injury the last 3 years), but it's been a slow and modest decline, especially for Luongo. A little bit more noticeable with Lundqvist.

I think Andersen is very close for me to put into this category, as is Vasilevskiy, but Vasilevskiy was a pretty average goaltender and mostly just a backup before last season. So he might find himself on that list after this year for me, but not yet. Andersen is close.

Then the average category and in this is in no particular order. Vasilevskiy (rising), Andersen (rising), Lehner, Rask (not elite anymore), Murray, Dubnyk (probably bordering between elite and average), Bishop, Varlamov, Talbot, Raanta, Quick, Hellebuyck, Jones, Hutton (maybe?), Kinkaid (maybe?).

Then there's the bottom of the barrel for starters. Markstrom (Probably an okay backup, not a good starter), Anderson (bordering average), Mrazek/Darling (either or would be bottom of the barrel for starters), Elliott (never had a good season without the Blues/Hitchcock, not before, nor after), Allen. Jimmy Howard (solid start to the season on a very bad team, but has been poor for 4 of the last 5 years before this) Mike Smith probably was in the average, but deserves to be here now. Schneider isn't the starter in New Jersey right now, but he'd be on this list if he was. He's done and he's shot to shit at this point.

Hutton and Kinkaid are both bordering average and poor. They've been career backups, who have now ended up starters. Kinkaid because his starter is toast and Hutton because he had 2 likely unsustainably good seasons as the St. Louis backup/1b.

That's my take.

 

[Bleedred]

Martin Brodeur has a glove hand, one of the best from the left to right, great against breakaways only once in a while susceptible to a 5 hole.

His 5-hole was worse early in his career, outside of the last year of his career (the Blues stint NEVER HAPPENED!) when everything was breaking down on him. You had to move him side to side and get a deke on him to beat him 5-hole for much of his career. Glove hand started to fall apart in his late 30's, but then came back the next year, but other things started going by that point.

Jones is pretty athletic, but it's very easy to beat him high glove if you watch. His glove hand isn't as bad as someone like Mike Smith or one of the wall of pads goalies that just plays the percentages, but sometimes it kind of is.

 

[sharski]

I think the sharks need to fix the bath water before they try trading the baby

 

[TexasShark]

This certainly isn't very flattering to Jones



Tableau Public

 

[Jaleel619]

I expect Joner's #'s to pick back up now that we've gone through the growing pains, and they're understanding how their offense is going to come about and being more dedicated defensively. I think Jones is above average, it is only his 4th season as a starting goalie, and he's been tremendous in all 3 playoff runs. How you calculate that to being average, I don't know. I think it has more to do with learning the vigors of playing that many games in a season and maintaining focus. You aren't average if you're capable of beating elite goaltenders in a duel, and that's what he's always done.

Niemi was average, I would consider Jones above average, not quite yet elite but I wouldn't be at all surprised if he gets there.

 

[Barrie22]

I expect Joner's #'s to pick back up now that we've gone through the growing pains, and they're understanding how their offense is going to come about and being more dedicated defensively. I think Jones is above average, it is only his 4th season as a starting goalie, and he's been tremendous in all 3 playoff runs. How you calculate that to being average, I don't know. I think it has more to do with learning the vigors of playing that many games in a season and maintaining focus. You aren't average if you're capable of beating elite goaltenders in a duel, and that's what he's always done.

Niemi was average, I would consider Jones above average, not quite yet elite but I wouldn't be at all surprised if he gets there.

He is already 28 years old. He better get moving on figuring it out because he is quickly running out of career time to do it.

 

[TomasHertlsRooster]

I expect Joner's #'s to pick back up now that we've gone through the growing pains, and they're understanding how their offense is going to come about and being more dedicated defensively. I think Jones is above average, it is only his 4th season as a starting goalie, and he's been tremendous in all 3 playoff runs. How you calculate that to being average, I don't know. I think it has more to do with learning the vigors of playing that many games in a season and maintaining focus. You aren't average if you're capable of beating elite goaltenders in a duel, and that's what he's always done.

Niemi was average, I would consider Jones above average, not quite yet elite but I wouldn't be at all surprised if he gets there.

Jones could decline into a .875 SV% goaltender by the age of 32 and people would still be saying this...

 

[one2gamble]

This certainly isn't very flattering to Jones



Tableau Public

The follow up.comment illustrates the major issue

 

[Jaleel619]

Jones could decline into a .875 SV% goaltender by the age of 32 and people would still be saying this...

Dude its not happening, he's a shut out type goalie. He just needs to work on maintaining focus throughout the season, just like last year he came back after being injured and was great.

 

[TomasHertlsRooster]

Dude its not happening, he's a shut out type goalie. He just needs to work on maintaining focus throughout the season, just like last year he came back after being injured and was great.

Since 2016-2017, Jones has 6 shutouts in 140 games started. That’s 3rd in games started and not even top-20 in shutouts. Carter Hutton and Peter f***ing Budaj have more shutouts than Jones in that time frame, despite the fact that they’ve started less than half as many games as him.

There is no sort of statistical evidence that Jones is a “shut out type goalie”.

 

[Jaleel619]

Since 2016-2017, Jones has 6 shutouts in 140 games started. That’s 3rd in games started and not even top-20 in shutouts. Carter Hutton and Peter ****ing Budaj have more shutouts than Jones in that time frame, despite the fact that they’ve started less than half as many games as him.

There is no sort of statistical evidence that Jones is a “shut out type goalie”.

6 shut outs hits first season with us, he'd hve more but I can on countless occasions where we gave up a goal at the end because they didn't work hard enough. You'll see when hes 30-32 he'll be considered an elite goalie.

I think it has more to do with Niemi giving up back breakers for 7 years and Jones has worked pretty hard to turn the atmosphere around, now its a matter of where we are right now, which is eliminating those extra chances, and that's a team thing not a goalie.

Sharks wouldn't have given up a 1st if they thought he's an average goalie, just doesn't make any sense. He's not, trust that.

 

[TomasHertlsRooster]

6 shut outs hits first season with us, he'd hve more but I can on countless occasions where we gave up a goal at the end because they didn't work hard enough. You'll see when hes 30 he'll be an elite goalie.

I think it has more to do with Niemi giving up back breakers for 7 years and Jones has worked pretty hard to turn the atmosphere around, now its a matter of where we are right now, which is eliminating those extra chances, and that's a team thing not a goalie.

Yes, Jones had 6 shutouts in his first 65 games as a Shark. Then he had another 6 in his next 140. What do you think that means? How can you see those numbers and think that he might become elite later? He has already gone through a notable decline!

Niemi, in his entire Sharks tenure, ranked 5th in the NHL with 25 shutouts and 2nd in the NHL with 296 games played. 0.084 shutouts per game.

Jones, in his entire Sharks tenure, ranks 10th in the NHL with 12 shutouts and 2nd in the NHL with 205 shutouts. 0.059 shutouts per game.

Among goaltenders with at least 100 games started (~30 per season):

Jones, in his entire Sharks tenure, ranks 23rd in the NHL with a .913 SV% and 9th in the NHL with a 2.44 GAA.

Among goaltenders with at least 150 game started (~30 per season)

Niemi, in his entire Sharks tenure, ranked 13rd in the NHL with a .917 SV% and 14th in the NHL with a 2.40 GAA.

I might be misunderstanding your post. Can you explain what about Niemi giving up back breakers led to Jones having worse numbers as a Shark than Niemi did? And, if you can explain that, can you also explain how Jones has “worked pretty hard to turn the atmosphere around”?