Minnesota Wild General Discussion V

[SupremeNachos]

I just played golf with Mike Peluso, and he's a total old shool bad ass. Not all enforcers end up as brain dead squash. Anyway, that's one of my random daily updates.

Surprised he has the coordination to hit a golf ball.

 

[Ban Hammered]

And he should be. If you're the GM, own it!

Own what? That fans and pundits didn't like his draft?
That fans seem to think this is NHL 18 on easy mode and he can sign/trade what he wants?
That's what he is supposed to own?

 

[TaLoN]

Own what? That fans and pundits didn't like his draft?
That fans seem to think this is NHL 18 on easy mode and he can sign/trade what he wants?
That's what he is supposed to own?

The draft itself, that's what was being discussed. Not sure what else you were expecting.

 

[Minnesnota]

Are you talking about 17 year old Filip Johansson (turned 18 in March)? Uh, no he didn't make the U20 team. Dahlin was one of the first draft eligibles to make it for Sweden in recent years I think. He has played for Team Sweden at the U18 level though. Had 4 points in 5 games at the Hlinka tournament - second in D scoring to Adam Boqvist. Still doesn't scream bad pick to me.

Rasmus Sandin was taken 5 spot later in the draft and he turned 18 in March as well. Nils Lundkvist was taken 4 spots after the Wild and he doesn't turn 18 until July 27th.

Sounds like you're creating excuses to justify a bad value pick.

Oh woe is me if we end up being stuck with another 60-70 point Selke caliber center. How will I ever sleep at night.



As far as significant injuries go, a torn ACL is about as insignificant as it gets. It's pretty naive to assume every player who gets injured is going to have a massive drop off in their game for the rest of ever.



And if Kaprizov doesn't come over til 2020, who cares? He'll still only be 23 at that point.

Koivu has only scored more than 60 pts 3 times in his career. All 3 times happened consecutively from 2008-2009 to 2010-2011. He finished 4th, 11th, and 53rd in Selke voting those years. He's only ever finished Top 5 in Selke voting 3 times, and his only other finish in the top 10 was back during the 07-08 season.

Your revisionist history of what Koivu is tells a lot about the narrative you're trying to push. Fact of the matter is that Koivu has been wildly overrated defensively by fans of this team for over a decade and he's never been truly utilized in a shut-down role until Boudreau has been the head coach. His possession numbers have been wildly inflated due to favorable offensive zone starts up until Bruce arrived.

Koivu is a traditionally great faceoff guy who will put up 50pts but has always played 5th, 10th, and 20th fiddle to significantly better players offensively and defensively.

 

[Saga of the Elk]

Rasmus Sandin was taken 5 spot later in the draft and he turned 18 in March as well. Nils Lundkvist was taken 4 spots after the Wild and he doesn't turn 18 until July 27th.

Sounds like you're creating excuses to justify a bad value pick.

Not one of those guys was on the U20 team. What are you talking about? Even if Johansson doesn't make the squad for this coming December, it wouldn't necessarily mean he was a bad pick. He's 18 and has been selected for the national team at his appropriate age level, as one would expect from a Flahr/Fenton pick.

 

[Minnesnota]

Not one of those guys was on the U20 team. What are you talking about? Even if Johansson doesn't make the squad for this coming December, it wouldn't necessarily mean he was a bad pick. He's 18 and has been selected for the national team at his appropriate age level, as one would expect from a Flahr/Fenton pick.

Apologies, I meant the WJC Summer Showcase, which historically has been pretty indicative of who will make the actual roster. - Sweden U20 (all) at eliteprospects.com

 

[Saga of the Elk]

Apologies, I meant the WJC Summer Showcase, which historically has been pretty indicative of who will make the actual roster. - Sweden U20 (all) at eliteprospects.com

Gotcha. While it would be nice if he were there (and certainly good to see Simon Johansson on the roster), Sweden is deep at the position. And again, Filip's only 18. Not making it next year would be a negative arrow for me.

 

[DANOZ28]

so now that the dust has settled, what are the positives about zach filips? is he a great smooth skater like brodin? does he have a big shot? can he be an PP QB someday? will his offensive #'s match spur or dumba? is he the next lidstrom? feel free to sell me on why this was a good pick because i dont see the facts , stats or reasons this was a good pick in the 1st rnd. just because wild mgmt picked him doesnt make him a good choice. the math is no stats & no draft rankings had this player in the 1st rnd. ok now make me a believer!

 

[Wild11MN]

so now that the dust has settled, what are the positives about zach filips? is he a great smooth skater like brodin? does he have a big shot? can he be an PP QB someday? will his offensive #'s match spur or dumba? is he the next lidstrom? feel free to sell me on why this was a good pick because i dont see the facts , stats or reasons this was a good pick in the 1st rnd. just because wild mgmt picked him doesnt make him a good choice. the math is no stats & no draft rankings had this player in the 1st rnd. ok now make me a believer!

No one knows whether he'll be good or not. We'll try to answer that question next year.

 

[Saga of the Elk]

so now that the dust has settled, what are the positives about zach filips? is he a great smooth skater like brodin? does he have a big shot? can he be an PP QB someday? will his offensive #'s match spur or dumba? is he the next lidstrom? feel free to sell me on why this was a good pick because i dont see the facts , stats or reasons this was a good pick in the 1st rnd. just because wild mgmt picked him doesnt make him a good choice. the math is no stats & no draft rankings had this player in the 1st rnd. ok now make me a believer!

Why isn't it enough to know that the Wild drafted him at this point?

Even guys like John Draeger, Nolan De Jong, Pontus Sjalin, Nick Boka were decent picks. Guys do have ceilings, and sometimes they don't get there. It's an imperfect process, so you take the highest guy on your board.

Maybe he doesn't have the ceiling of Brodin - a guy drafted 10th overall. It's no sin. Maybe he'll be better offensively. Time will tell, not an analyst with little more data than a poster on these boards.

In this case, it's a smooth skater, right-hander who can do a bit of everything, with a very high level of hockey sense.

People get so caught up in CHL stats - lots of those guys just don't make it. It's over-scouted, the level of play is uneven. I like a guy that plays in Europe against men, or in the NCAA.

Johansson has put up some points, including in international competition, he's had a taste of pro hockey. He's on track to be a regular with them next season and probably play some with the international squad.

Worry about the timeline for Suter to stand on both of his feet at the same time - it's a much bigger concern for 18-19.

 

[Bazeek]

No one knows whether he'll be good or not. We'll try to answer that question next year.

Or at least wait until prospect camp (which starts tomorrow, right?) to take a look for ourselves. Not that I expect that to change much

 

[Bazeek]

Why isn't it enough to know that the Wild drafted him at this point?

Even guys like John Draeger, Nolan De Jong, Pontus Sjalin, Nick Boka were decent picks. Guys do have ceilings, and sometimes they don't get there. It's an imperfect process, so you take the highest guy on your board.

Maybe he doesn't have the ceiling of Brodin - a guy drafted 10th overall. It's no sin. Maybe he'll be better offensively. Time will tell, not an analyst with little more data than a poster on these boards.

In this case, it's a smooth skater, right-hander who can do a bit of everything, with a very high level of hockey sense.

People get so caught up in CHL stats - lots of those guys just don't make it. It's over-scouted, the level of play is uneven. I like a guy that plays in Europe against men, or in the NCAA.

Johansson has put up some points, including in international competition, he's had a taste of pro hockey in arguably the world's third best league. He's on track to be a regular with them next season. Outside of the rare case like Pettersson last season, young guys (or anyone) just don't score a lot in the SHL. So as I said, people should relax.

Worry about the timeline for Suter to stand on both of his feet at the same time - it's a much bigger concern for 18-19.

I wonder what sort of numbers Spurgeon would've put up developing in Sweden.

 

[Saga of the Elk]

I wonder what sort of numbers Spurgeon would've put up developing in Sweden.

Unimpressive, I'd wager, and he may have gone undrafted altogether. His brother having been drafted made a difference for him. Both were standouts in a hockey hotbed.

Brodin had like four points his draft season - too good for the J20, but he wasn't going to blow away pro players there anymore than he does here.

 

[Bazeek]

Unimpressive, I'd wager, and he may have gone undrafted altogether. His brother having been drafted made a difference for him. Both were standouts in a hockey hotbed.

Brodin had like four points his draft season - too good for the J20, but he wasn't going to blow away pro players there anymore than he does here.

I'd wager you're correct on both counts.

 

[Dr Jan Itor]

Own the draft, not defer. That's what I'm talking about.

If deferring responsibility is what he does best, he's in trouble.

I don't remember seeing very many interviews after where he separated himself from the pick.

The pick(s) will be on his resume, good or bad.

 

[AKL]

Koivu has only scored more than 60 pts 3 times in his career. All 3 times happened consecutively from 2008-2009 to 2010-2011. He finished 4th, 11th, and 53rd in Selke voting those years. He's only ever finished Top 5 in Selke voting 3 times, and his only other finish in the top 10 was back during the 07-08 season.

Your revisionist history of what Koivu is tells a lot about the narrative you're trying to push. Fact of the matter is that Koivu has been wildly overrated defensively by fans of this team for over a decade and he's never been truly utilized in a shut-down role until Boudreau has been the head coach. His possession numbers have been wildly inflated due to favorable offensive zone starts up until Bruce arrived.

Koivu is a traditionally great faceoff guy who will put up 50pts but has always played 5th, 10th, and 20th fiddle to significantly better players offensively and defensively.

So your argument is that Koivu isn't a 60-70 point Selke caliber C because he's only done each of those 3 times?

I mean you could argue he would have been better had his team been better. When you're the only good player on a crappy team, and your linemates are a 35+ year old Andrew Brunette and Antti Miettinen, there's probably more that you're capable of than what you're able to show.

PS, those three consecutive years where he scored the most are what is called a "prime", generally occurring when a forward is between 25 and 29.

 

[Minnesnota]

So your argument is that Koivu isn't a 60-70 point Selke caliber C because he's only done each of those 3 times?

I mean you could argue he would have been better had his team been better. When you're the only good player on a crappy team, and your linemates are a 35+ year old Andrew Brunette and Antti Miettinen, there's probably more than you're capable of than what you're able to show.

PS, those three consecutive years where he scored the most are what is called a "prime", generally occurring when a forward is between 25 and 29.

1. If a player hasn't scored 60pts in 8 years, they are most definitely not a "60-70pt Selke caliber C".
2. Andrew Brunette put up 50pts at age 35 61pts at age 36, and 46pts at age 37 so clearly age wasn't much of a factor like you're trying to make it out to be.
3. So by your math of what a players prime is, Koivu is 6 years past his prime, 8 years removed from his last 60pt campaign. Far cry from the player he was.

If anything all the stuff you spewed reinforced the fact that Koivu is wildly overrated by fans like yourself. Join me in the real world.

 

[AKL]

1. If a player hasn't scored 60pts in 8 years, they are most definitely not a "60-70pt Selke caliber C".
2. Andrew Brunette put up 50pts at age 35 61pts at age 36, and 46pts at age 37 so clearly age wasn't much of a factor like you're trying to make it out to be.
3. So by your math of what a players prime is, Koivu is 6 years past his prime, 8 years removed from his last 60pt campaign. Far cry from the player he was.

If anything all the stuff you spewed reinforced the fact that Koivu is wildly overrated by fans like yourself. Join me in the real world.

I never said Koivu is still currently a 60-70 point player. We're comparing him to JEE, so I'm looking at what he was in his prime for what we're expecting Ek to be.

 

[Bazeek]

1. If a player hasn't scored 60pts in 8 years, they are most definitely not a "60-70pt Selke caliber C".
2. Andrew Brunette put up 50pts at age 35 61pts at age 36, and 46pts at age 37 so clearly age wasn't much of a factor like you're trying to make it out to be.
3. So by your math of what a players prime is, Koivu is 6 years past his prime, 8 years removed from his last 60pt campaign. Far cry from the player he was.

If anything all the stuff you spewed reinforced the fact that Koivu is wildly overrated by fans like yourself. Join me in the real world.

It seems like there are two parallel discussions here:

1.) Is Koivu currently a 60-70 pt center with Selke caliber defense?
2.) Is Eriksson-Ek developing into Mikko Koivu 2.0 somehow a bad thing?

To the first question: I think Koivu's 60+ point days are pretty clearly behind him, but his defense hasn't declined much so far. Whether it's "Selke caliber" will always be intertwined with his production because that's just the reality of how these awards work, but it's still excellent.

To the second question: it boggles my mind that anyone would say "Yes" to this one. About the only problem with Eriksson-Ek maybe developing into Koivu is that he isn't definitely developing into Koivu.

 

[Minnesnota]

I'd be happy if Eriksson-Ek developed into what Koivu was ages 24-27, but he's going to have to play with much better linemates than Daniel Winnik and Marcus Foligno to do so.

There is a fundamental wrong with the way young players are developed in the NHL where too often skill players are buried down the lineup for piss poor reasons. See: Las Vegas Golden Knights for evidence of this.

Koivu received 17mins+ per game in his 2nd season, I hoped we would have seen the same with Ek. Give him skilled line-mates and let him flourish. Koivu got PMB, Nolan, Brunette, Havlat, Miettinen (defensively responsible 40pt guy). Ek has been given Winnik, Stewart, Foligno, Kunin with 3rd/4th line minutes. Not sure how anyone is supposed to succeed in that environment.

 

[Bazeek]

I'd be happy if Eriksson-Ek developed into what Koivu was ages 24-27, but he's going to have to play with much better linemates than Daniel Winnik and Marcus Foligno to do so.

There is a fundamental wrong with the way young players are developed in the NHL where too often skill players are buried down the lineup for piss poor reasons. See: Las Vegas Golden Knights for evidence of this.

Koivu received 17mins+ per game in his 2nd season, I hoped we would have seen the same with Ek. Give him skilled line-mates and let him flourish. Koivu got PMB, Nolan, Brunette, Havlat, Miettinen (defensively responsible 40pt guy). Ek has been given Winnik, Stewart, Foligno, Kunin with 3rd/4th line minutes. Not sure how anyone is supposed to succeed in that environment.

Hopeless optimist that I am, I think there's a good chance that Eriksson-Ek takes an offensive step next year. The final numbers are going to depend somewhat on what sort of wingers he gets on the 3rd line, but right now the top-9 looks something like...

Zucker - Staal - Granlund
Parise - Koivu - Coyle
Greenway - Eriksson-Ek - Nino

...with the usual note about Boudreau shuffling guys around a lot. There's still the possibility of a trade and Greenway's a big question mark, but those don't look like bad options for a young 3C.

If he does take that step I think he'll have ample top-6 opportunities as soon as the season after next. He'd be 22 to start the 2019-20 season, which I think is the age at which Koivu played his first NHL game.

 

[Dr Jan Itor]

From age 23 to 30, Koivu was a mid-60 point caliber of player that was very-good-to-great defensively. Problem was that he ran into injury trouble, so that's why there is a shortage of actual 60 point seasons on his resume.

If I get that (minus the injuries) out a 20th overall pick, I'm doing backflips.

 

[57special]

Let's not forget that Mikko wasn't exactly playing with a who's who of talented wingers during those years.

 

[Dickie Dunn]

If you need 3 yards, he will get you 3 yards. If you need 5 yards, he will get you 3 yards.

This was kind of my perception of Koivu during his peak. It wasn't his fault "people" always wanted more but the perception of him being less than a star seemed to stick. He was outstanding but outstanding isn't good enough when your team needs excellent. And that wasn't his fault.

 

[Ban Hammered]

The draft itself, that's what was being discussed. Not sure what else you were expecting.

Seems to me a lot of GM's have others run the draft...and again...we are talking about a guy who has been very successful with drafting defensemen....but you don't like the pick...so he did something wrong.