Matthews vs Barkov vs Draisaitl

[CatchyTune]

I get what you’re saying. But it’s not like Barkov and Matthews have bad linemates. They play with good/very good players in their own right. Yes Drai has a better linemate, but also puts up substantially more points. Having said that I can understand if Matthews or Barkov are your picks, hell I even voted Barkov when this poll first came out. But it is debate worthy that’s for sure

Barkov is a great defensive 2-way guy who also should be good for 90+ points. His plays with Huberdeau and Dadonov? I'm not sure what Florida's line combos are. Matthews is more of an offensive juggernaut who is good for at least 40 goals and 90 points+ (when healthy). Out of all 3 he has the weakest linemates. Even as a leafs fan. Nylander is a good 60 point guy and Johnsson is on his left who put up 40 last year. If you swapped Drai with either he would not suitably replace either in their position. Put either Matthews/Barkov with Mcdavid and I think they do pretty darn well in their own regards

 

[CatchyTune]

I do not deal in hypothetical.

I'll take the better producer who also has a better 200-foot game.

Thats not hypothetical pal. Thats the 3 players we have at hand. I didnt think I had to spell it out for you.

Drai is the winger playing with the best player in the league and the franchise #1 C's with no superstar are Barkov/Matthews

 

[Dache]

Barkov is a great defensive 2-way guy who also should be good for 90+ points. His plays with Huberdeau and Dadonov? I'm not sure what Florida's line combos are. Matthews is more of an offensive juggernaut who is good for at least 40 goals and 90 points+ (when healthy). Out of all 3 he has the weakest linemates. Even as a leafs fan. Nylander is a good 60 point guy and Johnsson is on his left who put up 40 last year. If you swapped Drai with either he would not suitably replace either in their position. Put either Matthews/Barkov with Mcdavid and I think they do pretty darn well in their own regards

you’re trying to say what Matthews “should” be good for, when he hasn’t done it yet. Drai has done 50/105. That’s my issue. If Matthews stays healthy and gets 40ish and 90-95pts, then yeah I can really see your argument. Barkov I will admit is very close or above, the difference between 96 and 105 especially with Barkovs defensive game like you said is tough to argue against. Their stats so far this year are a little more lopsided but it’s still early

 

[Michel Beauchamp]

Thats not hypothetical pal. Thats the 3 players we have at hand. I didnt think I had to spell it out for you.

Drai is the winger playing with the best player in the league and the franchise #1 C's with no superstar are Barkov/Matthews

You seriously did not understand that ?

 

[CatchyTune]

you’re trying to say what Matthews “should” be good for, when he hasn’t done it yet. Drai has done 50/105. That’s my issue. If Matthews stays healthy and gets 40ish and 90-95pts, then yeah I can really see your argument. Barkov I will admit is very close or above, the difference between 96 and 105 especially with Barkovs defensive game like you said is tough to argue against. Their stats so far this year are a little more lopsided but it’s still early

Yeah thats the thing though, Matthews is a 40/90-95 guy who had Patrick Marleau and Kasperi Kapanen as linemates last year. He still almost put up 40 goals and was above ppg even though he missed a good chunk. If he had a Mcdavid on his side I dont doubt he gets 50/105+ fully healthy. And I have my doubts Drai does as well as a C with Marleau and Kap as his wings

 

[Michel Beauchamp]

Yeah thats the thing though, Matthews is a 40/90-95 guy

The post you quoted literally said that he hasn't done it yet...

You repeating over and over the same thing will not make it real.

 

[CatchyTune]

You seriously did not understand that ?

Nope. You can catch me up or jump in on my other replies if you prefer

 

[CatchyTune]

The post you quoted literally said that he hasn't done it yet...

You repeating over and over the same thing will not make it real.

I said "when healthy". He put up 40 goals his rookie year and would have every year if not he missed time. If he had Connor Mcdavid on his line he could pot 50+ like someone I know

 

[Dache]

Yeah thats the thing though, Matthews is a 40/90-95 guy who had Patrick Marleau and Kasperi Kapanen as linemates last year. He still almost put up 40 goals and was above ppg even though he missed a good chunk. If he had a Mcdavid on his side I dont doubt he gets 50/105+ fully healthy. And I have my doubts Drai does as well as a C with Marleau and Kap as his wings

He is not a 40/95 guy till he does it. And we don’t have to doubt or wonder if Drai would do that with McDavid because we know he did. Maybe Matthews has a worse season with McDavid because they don’t mesh as well. Not likely but it’s all speculation until it happens

 

[YakDavid]

Matthews is the only 50 goal scorer who has yet to score 50. Potential yes, but stop acting like he has hit a level till he has hit it. I like barkov but he is 19 points behind drai, 34 games into the season. Yes he is great defensively but 19 more in not even half a season is insane, McDavid or not.

 

[Rhaegar Targaryen]

Matthews is the only 50 goal scorer who has yet to score 50. Potential yes, but stop acting like he has hit a level till he has hit it. I like barkov but he is 19 points behind drai, 34 games into the season. Yes he is great defensively but 19 more in not even half a season is insane, McDavid or not.

I've never seen someone as highly rated as Matthews without a 80 point season under their belt. Even this season, he's been healthy, and 34 points in 33 games. Good stats, but nothing that stands out as a crazy-elite player.

 

[Michel Beauchamp]

I said "when healthy". He put up 40 goals his rookie year and would have every year if not he missed time. If he had Connor Mcdavid on his line he could pot 50+ like someone I know

You're smart enough to know that you can't extrapolate like that.

Did he score 328 goals as a rookie ?

More seriously, Bozak would have been the #1 center the Leafs were looking for. "Oh my God, he was on pace for 60 points" after his rookie half-season.

Brian Savage would have been a goal-scoring machine: 41 goals in the first 65 October games of his career.

Slumps do exist, as do hot runs.

Who knows what he would have done if he hadn't missed those games ?

 

[Neutral Hockey Fan]

Yeah thats the thing though, Matthews is a 40/90-95 guy who had Patrick Marleau and Kasperi Kapanen as linemates last year. He still almost put up 40 goals and was above ppg even though he missed a good chunk. If he had a Mcdavid on his side I dont doubt he gets 50/105+ fully healthy. And I have my doubts Drai does as well as a C with Marleau and Kap as his wings

So, you’re saying that you have no doubts that if Matthews played with McDavid, Matthews could merely match Draisaitl’s numbers, while Draisaitl is a substantially better 2 way player, is a great penalty killer, and brings a physical element to his game?

doesn’t that objectively make Draisaitl a clearly superior player?

 

[Neutral Hockey Fan]

I've never seen someone as highly rated as Matthews without a 80 point season under their belt. Even this season, he's been healthy, and 34 points in 33 games. Good stats, but nothing that stands out as a crazy-elite player.

I've never seen someone as highly rated as Matthews without a 80 point season under their belt. Even this season, he's been healthy, and 34 points in 33 games. Good stats, but nothing that stands out as a crazy-elite player.

He’s on pace to basically maintain what he has been doing for the 2 year prior to this one. 40 goals, and about 83 points (assuming he plays a full 82 games). Good numbers, but far off the pace of the top players in the game. Granted, his defensive play has declined since his rookie season, but offensively, he’s the same as he was 2 years ago.

 

[CatchyTune]

You're smart enough to know that you can't extrapolate like that.

Did he score 328 goals as a rookie ?

More seriously, Bozak would have been the #1 center the Leafs were looking for. "Oh my God, he was on pace for 60 points" after his rookie half-season.

Brian Savage would have been a goal-scoring machine: 41 goals in the first 65 October games of his career.

Slumps do exist, as do hot runs.

Who knows what he would have done if he hadn't missed those games ?

He had 34 in 62 games, then 37 in 68 games. What I said was not far fetched whatsoever. This year he already has 19 in his first 33. I dont know how Tyler Bozak and Brian Savage are relevant.

 

[Golden_Jet]

Matthews is the only 50 goal scorer who has yet to score 50. Potential yes, but stop acting like he has hit a level till he has hit it. I like barkov but he is 19 points behind drai, 34 games into the season. Yes he is great defensively but 19 more in not even half a season is insane, McDavid or not.

He’s only hit 40 once, and 40 on the button.

 

[CatchyTune]

So, you’re saying that you have no doubts that if Matthews played with McDavid, Matthews could merely match Draisaitl’s numbers, while Draisaitl is a substantially better 2 way player, is a great penalty killer, and brings a physical element to his game?

doesn’t that objectively make Draisaitl a clearly superior player?

Neither is clearly superior to the other. It could be argued either way but I have obviously argued Matthews' side due to position, circumstance, and linemates. We obviously have no idea what would happen if they switched exact positions with eachother. But do you really think Draisaitl matches his 50 goal 105 point season playing with Patrick Marleau and Kapanen/Nylander rather than Mcdavid last year? And I firmly believe a Matthews-Mcdavid-Kassian line would absolutely wreck just as much havoc, if not more than, the current line they have. But I wont use that as an argument as it is purely hypothetical.

 

[Sojourn]

I've never seen someone as highly rated as Matthews without a 80 point season under their belt. Even this season, he's been healthy, and 34 points in 33 games. Good stats, but nothing that stands out as a crazy-elite player.

I’m not sure that’s completely fair. His goal scoring stands out as elite. I don’t disagree with your point, but I feel like credit is due there. Since entering the league he has consistently been one of the best goal scorers, when healthy. Not the best, but up there among the better goal scorers.

It’s just that the rest of his game doesn’t seem at the same level, and too many of the arguments about why he deserves to be rated as highly come down to selective use of statistics and “what if” arguments.

Matthews strikes me a bit as a player who entered the NHL more ready than the average skill player, but he hasn’t grown as much and he’s being rated as if he were still that rookie player with all this growth ahead of him.

 

[Sojourn]

Yeah thats the thing though, Matthews is a 40/90-95 guy who had Patrick Marleau and Kasperi Kapanen as linemates last year. He still almost put up 40 goals and was above ppg even though he missed a good chunk. If he had a Mcdavid on his side I dont doubt he gets 50/105+ fully healthy. And I have my doubts Drai does as well as a C with Marleau and Kap as his wings

The 40 number I get, and I won’t argue that. Even if he’s only actually hit that number once, the previous two seasons at least show a pace where 40 is realistically attainable if he plays the full season.

But where are you getting the 90-95 points? Last season saw his best PPG, and it was 88 points. It’s also a pace that was decreasing, as the more games he played the less significant his hot start became and the lower his PPG pace. But for the sake of argument, we can say he would have put up 88 points in 82 games. That still falls short of 90 points, and well short of 95.

This is the kind of argument that raises eyebrows. You’re trying to label him a player he has never been, giving him credit he doesn’t deserve yet. Why can’t you be honest about what he has done, or is he just not good enough then?

 

[CatchyTune]

The 40 number I get, and I won’t argue that. Even if he’s only actually hit that number once, the previous two seasons at least show a pace where 40 is realistically attainable if he plays the full season.

But where are you getting the 90-95 points? Last season saw his best PPG, and it was 88 points. It’s also a pace that was decreasing, as the more games he played the less significant his hot start became and the lower his PPG pace. But for the sake of argument, we can say he would have put up 88 points in 82 games. That still falls short of 90 points, and well short of 95.

This is the kind of argument that raises eyebrows. You’re trying to label him a player he has never been, giving him credit he doesn’t deserve yet. Why can’t you be honest about what he has done, or is he just not good enough then?

You're that worked up over a 2 point difference? Sure he paced for 88, not 90. I said it. But maybe, just maybe, since the guy is 22, he continues to improve. I dont doubt in his prime he has multiple 50 goal and/or 100 point seasons. Heck 50 goals isnt out of the question for this year.

 

[Sojourn]

You're that worked up over a 2 point difference? Sure he paced for 88, not 90. I said it. But maybe, just maybe, since the guy is 22, he continues to improve. I dont doubt in his prime he has multiple 50 goal and/or 100 point seasons. Heck 50 goals isnt out of the question for this year.

But it wasn’t just 2 points. You gave him those 2 points, and then said he was a 90-95 point guy. That implies that not only is he getting those points, and more, but consistently.

As for 50 goals, it isn’t out of the question, but yet again a hot start has inflated his overall pace, and his pace since then doesn’t match that. He’s on pace for 47 goals right now, and it looks more likely that the number will be lower than that. Not higher. More than 20% of his goals came in his first three games. That means that, since then, his goal scoring has been around 34-35 goals over a full season. That looks quite a bit less impressive, doesn’t it?

Personally, I expect some hot stretches to push those numbers to around 40 goals, because he is a very good goal scorer, but based on how he has been scoring since his first three games he is going to fall well short of 50. This is me giving more weight to 30 games than 3.

None of that is really the point, however. The point is that you were trying to give him undeserved credit. I outright said I had no issue with the 40 goal monicker. That’s a fair one. But trying to label him a 90-95 point guy? You were trying to elevate him to a level he doesn’t belong. As for his age, yes, he’s only 22, but he’s been in a growth age since he entered the league. Why should people give him the benefit of the doubt and project him as a future 50/100 guy when it feels like he’s looked like the same player for the previous two seasons, and it looks like we’re going into a third where it’s true again.

I think the bottom line here is that it’s time for him to shit or get off the pot as a potential superstar. He has shown flashes of being an absolute elite player, but the majority of the time he is just a high end goal scorer and a star offensive talent. Not a superstar offensive talent. So why should people be willing to accept his inclusion into those types of rankings? He needs to earn it. Not by his potential, or selective use of stats, but because he plays like it every night and finishes the season with the raw numbers to support it.

 

[CatchyTune]

But it wasn’t just 2 points. You gave him those 2 points, and then said he was a 90-95 point guy. That implies that not only is he getting those points, and more, but consistently.

As for 50 goals, it isn’t out of the question, but yet again a hot start has inflated his overall pace, and his pace since then doesn’t match that. He’s on pace for 47 goals right now, and it looks more likely that the number will be lower than that. Not higher. More than 20% of his goals came in his first three games. That means that, since then, his goal scoring has been around 34-35 goals over a full season. That looks quite a bit less impressive, doesn’t it?

Personally, I expect some hot stretches to push those numbers to around 40 goals, because he is a very good goal scorer, but based on how he has been scoring since his first three games he is going to fall well short of 50. This is me giving more weight to 30 games than 3.

None of that is really the point, however. The point is that you were trying to give him undeserved credit. I outright said I had no issue with the 40 goal monicker. That’s a fair one. But trying to label him a 90-95 point guy? You were trying to elevate him to a level he doesn’t belong. As for his age, yes, he’s only 22, but he’s been in a growth age since he entered the league. Why should people give him the benefit of the doubt and project him as a future 50/100 guy when it feels like he’s looked like the same player for the previous two seasons, and it looks like we’re going into a third where it’s true again.

I think the bottom line here is that it’s time for him to **** or get off the pot as a potential superstar. He has shown flashes of being an absolute elite player, but the majority of the time he is just a high end goal scorer and a star offensive talent. Not a superstar offensive talent. So why should people be willing to accept his inclusion into those types of rankings? He needs to earn it. Not by his potential, or selective use of stats, but because he plays like it every night and finishes the season with the raw numbers to support it.

I dont like the argument where he is only 22 but looks the same so far. Nathan Mackinnon was a 50-60 point guy his first 4 years, then in year 5 exploded for over 90. He is definitely not done developing at 22 years old. Players dont reach their prime until they are 26-27. Matthews has an extremely bright future

 

[Neutral Hockey Fan]

I dont like the argument where he is only 22 but looks the same so far. Nathan Mackinnon was a 50-60 point guy his first 4 years, then in year 5 exploded for over 90. He is definitely not done developing at 22 years old. Players dont reach their prime until they are 26-27. Matthews has an extremely bright future

Not sure where you get your information. It has been noted, on this very site, that over the past 10 years, over 85% of players have their peak scoring season between ages 20 and 24. Almost nobody has peak offensive production at age 27 like you are suggesting. So, where did you get your numbers from?

 

[Michel Beauchamp]

He had 34 in 62 games, then 37 in 68 games. (1) What I said was not far fetched whatsoever. This year he already has 19 in his first 33. (2) I dont know how Tyler Bozak and Brian Savage are relevant.

(1) Where did I claim that ?

(2) You don't ? Seriously ?

 

[Michel Beauchamp]

But I wont use that as an argument as it is purely hypothetical.

Great tactic.

"I've said it, but I won't say it"