He wants to be the highest paid winger in the league eh?
First it was 12 or 11 keep Marner from going to July 1, now its 10.5. Good to see it coming down. Slowly but surely.
He wants to be the highest paid winger in the league eh?
Oh, we’re going on just total points now on their best elc season? That’s interesting.
Well.. shouldn’t Nylander have made far less than Pastrnak and his 34 goals/70 points? Also, compare Matthews point totals (73, lol) to other centres who signed post elc contracts at around 15% of the cap.
There is NO consistency here.
Kane scored MORE goals and points over his elc than Marner.
We’re all just being played with this stuff, and it’s entirely orchestrated.First it was 12 or 11 keep Marner from going to July 1, now its 10.5. Good to see it coming down. Slowly but surely.
Most other gm’s can get their players to sign fair market value without chasing them out of town.
I mean... my standards aren’t ridiculous here. I just want fair market value based on league wide precedent. I just don’t want the entire market to be reset with every new contract dubas gives out.
He wants to be the highest paid winger in the league eh?
Yes, Nylander SHOULD have got far less than Pastrnak...
Matthews is also overpaid, but he's got the goalscoring factor that has him in a very unique position. Also, the 73 points was an 88 point pace...
I am fairly consistent with my views.
I'm not even stating Kane is a poor comparable. I asked what the precedent was for a 94 point U22 forward. Kane was an 88 points U22 forward. Goal difference is negligible, really.
The highest I'd go with Marner is Kane + 7%, which is approximately 9.85M x 5yrs.
Anything higher than that, I'd agree is unprecedented.
Once again, derger doesn't know poop.
Secondly, 10.5 long-term wouldn't be terrible at all.
I would counter by saying that you refuse to acknowledge the gm’s responsibility in all this. You’re claiming that there are these outside forces that are outside of Dubas control.Your standards aren't ridiculous, just naive and a little petulant. You refuse to look at the actual mechanics of the situation and the manner in which players can leverage market forces and instead whine about not getting what the neighbour got.
Market value as determined by comparables does not necessarily equal value as determined by the market under the rules of the CBA.
You think Dubas is the only player in this?I would counter by saying that you refuse to acknowledge the gm’s responsibility in all this. You’re claiming that there are these outside forces that are outside of Dubas control.
I’d say that there are ALWAYS such outside forces. Some gm’s are just better than others. Maybe it wasn’t the best time for a flat out rookie gm.
I blame the entire management team for these dramatic unprecedented overpayments.You think Dubas is the only player in this?
Shanahan has the responsibility of casting his own crew to negotiate with the RFA's.
Cap percentage is your friend.10.5 makes him by far the highest paid winger in the league and is above and beyond all precedent.
It's pretty terrible bro.
What happened to others isn't any proof that it will happen to Marner.A completely predicted great year with a great linemate with a history of elevating his wingers whom tend to come back down to earth once they are no longer his linemates.
I asked what the precedent was for a 94 point U22 forward...
Patrick Kane didn't hit 90 points until his U28 season (albeit, he was on pace to pass it in the lockout shortened season, his U25 season).
Cap percentage is your friend.
Within a few years of that hypothetical deal, it'd look like a solid contract. Much the same as the way Draisital's deal was criticized and is now praised.
I blame the entire management team for these dramatic unprecedented overpayments.
So how come you think Toronto - with all the money in the world to assemble a world-class negotiating team (a GM isn't the only one doing the leg-work of negotiating) - is doing such a horrific job? Honest question.
At least you agree that Nylander is heavily overpaid.
But now you’re saying goal scoring counts? Ok. Marner never had a u/22 30 goal season. Kane did. Isn’t that just as valid an argument as you saying Kane never had a 90 point season?
I blame the NHL. What kind of leverage do you think management has?So how come you think Toronto - with all the money in the world to assemble a world-class negotiating team (a GM isn't the only one doing the leg-work of negotiating) - is doing such a horrific job? Honest question.
I would counter by saying that you refuse to acknowledge the gm’s responsibility in all this. You’re claiming that there are these outside forces that are outside of Dubas control.
I’d say that there are ALWAYS such outside forces. Some gm’s are just better than others. Maybe it wasn’t the best time for a flat out rookie gm.
Personally I'd rather have marner at 10.5 x 8 than at 9.2x 5....which is the 11% comparable. I'm ok with paying for term.Uh yeah, I'm making that statement under the cap% line of reasoning.
...
Patrick Kane signed for 11% on a 5 year deal after an extremely comparable ELC to Marner, and he also won a cup with having an exceptional postseason to boot....
$10.5M long term is an unprecedented contract for a winger that has literally never been done before.
So Kane scores more goals and points than Marner over elc. He gets 28 playoff points in 20 games and wins a cup. His career high in goals is higher than a Marners. He’s far better on the PP.Kane scored only 4 more goals than Marner did, and 5 more on the powerplay. Chicago's powerplay that season was 22.5%, Toronto's this season was 18.8%.
I tend not to look at EV Production separately of total production, I think its people primarily making data fit their narrative... but I was curious, so take this for what its worth to you:
U22 Season EV Production:
Mitch Marner: 70P
Patrick Kane: 58P
Kane has only reached 70+EV Prodocution points once in his career, and that was this season
This is the company Marner is in, in the last 25 years:
View attachment 237561
In 2014-15 Benn won the scoring title with just 87 points, scoring has increased significantly in the past few seasons with the new rules and smaller goalie equipment.
Outside market force is a sprectrum, the strength of which is determined by the CBA and the desirability of the player. The decision of how hard to leverage that force belongs to the player. If a high end player with heavy market force is willing to use it completely the gm is really just along for the ride.
Some gm's are better than others, but judging that based on outcomes that are determined primarily by the financial motivations of players that can name their own price tags is flat out asinine.
"Peter Chiarelli is a good contract negotiator because McDavid is a 1/100 person that negotiated himself down for the good of company and Kyle Dubas is a bad negotiator because Matthews is a normal person that used the leverage at his disposal" is a flat out idiotic statement.