McKenzie: Mark Stone Mega-Thread Pt. 2 - Jets pursuing Stone, Ottawa working on contract extension

[Clayonator]

That is a formula for disappointment.

I’m beyond that point already.

 

[Porter Stoutheart]

Re: thread title... Sens aren't likely still "working on a contract extension" are they? Sitting him out sort of implies they are focused on the deadline trade approach now, no?

 

[TheJadePipe]

I thought that was the rumoured offer for Duchene from Jets not Stone

 

[Groo]

I see a real taste for Stone on an Dzingle budget

 

[Tasteless Beaver]

Remember Buffalo's reported ask for Kane?

"first-round pick, a prospect, a roster player, and a conditional pick"

That turned out to be a 1st, 4th and Daniel O'Regan, who is a meh prospect. Kinda skipped the whole roster player thing..

That was a seller's market deadline - Ottawa should expect similar.

 

[Habs Halifax]

"As much as" sounds like 2 conditional 1sts and 2 prospects/young players.

Remember, Garth Snow thought Collberg was a very good prospect.

Collberg was a very good prospect. He just didn't improve from who he was at the time of the trade. It's not like Collberg didn't accomplish anything. He made the WJC at the age of 17 and had 7 pts in 6 games with 4 goals.

 

[The Devilish Buffoon]

It's going to be fun seeing what he actually goes for.

If it's as a rental it won't be more than 1st + decent prospect + decent young AHL/NHLer.

You're crazy if you think a rental is getting 1st + top prospect, it doesn't happen.

No? What did Hossa get?

Basically the equivalent of 1st (1st), Vesalainen (Esposito, 8 months earlier was drafted top 20), Lowry (Armstrong) + (Christensen)

Remember Buffalo's reported ask for Kane?

"first-round pick, a prospect, a roster player, and a conditional pick"

That turned out to be a 1st, 4th and Daniel O'Regan, who is a meh prospect. Kinda skipped the whole roster player thing..

That was a seller's market deadline - Ottawa should expect similar.

You seriously believe there were as many teams in on Kane as there are in on Stone? That's all I want to know from you, is an answer to that question.

 

[Mighty Makar]

Remember Buffalo's reported ask for Kane?

"first-round pick, a prospect, a roster player, and a conditional pick"

That turned out to be a 1st, 4th and Daniel O'Regan, who is a meh prospect. Kinda skipped the whole roster player thing..

That was a seller's market deadline - Ottawa should expect similar.

Ottawa should expect something better, but I get your point.

 

[BatVader]

No? What did Hossa get?

Basically the equivalent of 1st (1st), Vesalainen (Esposito, 8 months earlier was drafted top 20), Lowry (Armstrong) + (Christensen)



You seriously believe there were as many teams in on Kane as there are in on Stone? That's all I want to know from you, is an answer to that question.

How long ago was that???

 

[The Devilish Buffoon]

How long ago was that???

10 years ago. So?

When was the last time a player of Stones caliber was dealt at the deadline? Kovalchuk in 2010 and Hossa in 2008.

 

[JetsWillFly4Ever]

No? What did Hossa get?

Basically the equivalent of 1st (1st), Vesalainen (Esposito, 8 months earlier was drafted top 20), Lowry (Armstrong) + (Christensen)

Esposito was already seen as a sinking ship imo. His value had dropped significantly from being rated a top prospect before his draft, to falling all the way to 20, to being traded in a rental deal. It had become clear he was losing traction as a prospect. Vesalainen has done the opposite and is clearly a better prospect. I'd also say Lowry > Armstrong, but this is more based on possession metrics and they weren't overly valued at that time.

This trade was also 10 years ago, and I believe the sentiment around rentals has been changing. I think GM's are realizing you can't break the bank for them and that a 1st and a decent prospect is the going rate.

 

[Korpse]

Appleton I’m sure is absolutely available.

Stanley = 1st rd pick

1st rd pick

Conditional pick if he signs? What pick?

So we’re sitting at basically two 1st rd picks, Appleton & conditional pick (based on if he signs?) is what you’re saying?

Conditional pick could be similar to Karlsson's. 2nd if he re-signs, upgrades to 1st if he resigns and they make the finals, but basically yes.

 

[Extra Texture]

Sens should have traded Duchene and Stone last year when they had term.
They have a couple days to get as much as they can for 2 rentals.

Ottawa fans more than likely will be very disappointed with the return they get and they can thank their gm for that.

I agree that they should have been long gone before now, and that all this waiting waiting waiting until the last minute (three top UFA rentals FFS) is going to hurt them, but even when Hoffman and Karlsson had term last summer people's concencus was that "Dorion got screwed". Rightly or wrongly.

That said, yeah, it could possibly pay off in a bidding war driving up prices, but I seriously doubt it.

I just feel terrible for Sens fans. Losing five top players off a single team in the span of one year. And I can sympathize. Between 2001 and '04 when they really bottomed out, it felt like the Pens (in addition to going from a bubble team to a cellar dweller) were being strip mined of every iota of talent they had. Starting in 2001 you had Jagr traded (to a rival). Lang walks as a UFA (to the same rival). Kasparitis traded. Kovalev traded (to a different rival). Somewhere in there Marty Straka injures himself, and then after all that gets traded. Basically everyone worth a damn outside of Alexei Morozov and Mario were jettisoned, and all of the returns wound up being hot trash. Good god, hope was in such short supply I remember being jazzed that we had signed Alexander Daigle to a PTO contract. When ownership sucks (or is determined to cut cut cut everywhere), it boxes management in and gives them very little leverage. Though that doesnt absolve Dorion, these next few days are just going to be the perfect shitstorm.


Hopefully for the Sens, they maximize those picks, and get some talent back right away. And then get their team sold to someone who is about what's best for the franchise, rather than his pocketbook.

 

[robertocarlos]

Problem for the Jets is if we are extending Stone beyond rental status, we need some cap freed up, and to do that we need to move ELC kids up and higher paid guys out.
Vesalainen would fill a role on the wing in place of Connor/Ehlers.
Roslovic, hopefully, replaces Little at 2C.
Niku replaces Kulikov on the LD.
Jets don’t want a rental Stone, so the money guys, right now, are working over time crunching figures.
But, ultimately, Chevy will need to talk to Stone prior to any trade, to gauge interest in him re-signing. If he’s not interested, this all becomes moot and the Jets move on to Duchene/Panarin/Simmonds/etc...

Of course Jets want a rental Stone. He would take them further in the playoffs and that's money in the old Jet's bank account. He'll pay for himself. Then after the Jets third round loss to SJS the Jets can try to sign Stone at 9 million. We have his family on our side.

 

[tntkid]

I agree that they should have been long gone before now, and that all this waiting waiting waiting until the last minute (three top UFA rentals FFS) is going to hurt them, but even when Hoffman and Karlsson had term last summer people's concencus was that "Dorion got screwed". Rightly or wrongly.

That said, yeah, it could possibly pay off in a bidding war driving up prices, but I seriously doubt it.

I just feel terrible for Sens fans. Losing five top players off a single team in the span of one year. And I can sympathize. Between 2001 and '04 when they really bottomed out, it felt like the Pens (in addition to going from a bubble team to a cellar dweller) were being strip mined of every iota of talent they had. Starting in 2001 you had Jagr traded (to a rival). Lang walks as a UFA (to the same rival). Kasparitis traded. Kovalev traded (to a different rival). Somewhere in there Marty Straka injures himself, and then after all that gets traded. Basically everyone worth a damn outside of Alexei Morozov and Mario were jettisoned, and all of the returns wound up being hot trash. Good god, hope was in such short supply I remember being jazzed that we had signed Alexander Daigle to a PTO contract. When ownership sucks (or is determined to cut cut cut everywhere), it boxes management in and gives them very little leverage. Though that doesnt absolve Dorion, these next few days are just going to be the perfect ****storm.


Hopefully for the Sens, they maximize those picks, and get some talent back right away. And then get their team sold to someone who is about what's best for the franchise, rather than his pocketbook.

I would hate to lose all those roster players for draft picks and scraps if I was an Ottawa fan.

Then again we have had UFAs in Winnipeg walk for nothing because we could not sign them and never opted to trade them before the deadline.

 

[Hunter368]

Conditional pick could be similar to Karlsson's. 2nd if he re-signs, upgrades to 1st if he resigns and they make the finals, but basically yes.

I’m speaking strictly for myself here:

Two 1st rd picks, Appleton & a conditional 2nd rd pick if he signs I likely wouldn’t do unless previously I had conversations with Stone that he would sign at a reasonable rate. Purely as a rental two 1st rd picks and Appleton I pass on easily. Rentals just don’t help teams win the cup that much, literally we’re talking about very low single % increase in odds......not worth giving away the future for. Some fans might go for it but not me, I look at the big picture & long term more.

 

[Hunter368]

Duchene trade, Stone isn’t signing now.

 

[GaryinPrague]

Remember Buffalo's reported ask for Kane?

"first-round pick, a prospect, a roster player, and a conditional pick"

That turned out to be a 1st, 4th and Daniel O'Regan, who is a meh prospect. Kinda skipped the whole roster player thing..

That was a seller's market deadline - Ottawa should expect similar.

I think it was a 2nd, conditional 1st if he signed an extension contract with San Jose

 

[God King Fudge]

Jesus. Stone's cost just skyrocketed.

Excited to see OTT mess it up.

 

[Korpse]

I’m speaking strictly for myself here:

Two 1st rd picks, Appleton & a conditional 2nd rd pick if he signs I likely wouldn’t do unless previously I had conversations with Stone that he would sign at a reasonable rate. Purely as a rental two 1st rd picks and Appleton I pass on easily. Rentals just don’t help teams win the cup that much, literally we’re talking about very low single % increase in odds......not worth giving away the future for. Some fans might go for it but not me, I look at the big picture & long term more.

That's fair but I have a hard time seeing Stone going for less specially given the Duchene return.

 

[ottawa]

Jesus. Stone's cost just skyrocketed.

Excited to see OTT mess it up.

If they got the return they did for Duchene...no way Stone returns less. He is a PPG selke caliber forward. Any contender that adds him is an instant favourite.

 

[Hunter368]

That's fair but I have a hard time seeing Stone going for less specially given the Duchene return.

Duchene & C level prospect got a late 1st, two C level prospects and a conditional 1st (assuming if he signs, I haven’t seen it confirmed yet).

Stone will get more, but I don’t see the Duchene return even comparable to some of the demands for Stone which are “significantly higher”.

 

[Korpse]

Duchene & C level prospect got a late 1st, two C level prospects and a conditional 1st (assuming if he signs, I haven’t seen it confirmed yet).

Stone will get more, but I don’t see the Duchene return even comparable to some of the demands for Stone which are “significantly higher”.

Abramov and Davidsson isn't all that far off Appleton and Stanley. If both are C level prospects then so is Stanley, who you seem to value.

 

[Pongs21]

Jesus. Stone's cost just skyrocketed.

Excited to see OTT mess it up.

Don't see how it skyrocketed. Probably a similar deal they got for Duchene, with more higher end prospects.

 

[justafan22]

Abramov and Davidsson isn't all that far off Appleton and Stanley. If both are C level prospects then so is Stanley, who you seem to value.

Abramov is a prospect, davidsson is an overager.